[QUOTE=DressageOverFences;6086622]
might there be a link to the properetiquette/skittlespony thread? Unlike the Op I had time to read all 6 pages and quite enjoyed it…[/QUOTE]
catch rider
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321930
would you…?
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322127
It looks like the OP deleted many of her posts, so you have to read the quotes.
I have to say, as a client of a BNT and as someone whose family has invested a LOT of $$$ into quality show horses, I allow one of our working students to ride our horses because she is sweet, hardworking, and above all HUMBLE. I know I am lucky enough to be in a position where I can help further her career by letting her lesson on some nicer horses than she could afford, and because her personality moves me and because I think she’s deserving, I do her that favor (not meaning to come off as some holier-than-though goddess of giving out favors to the little people, but I know she can’t afford to consistently ride quality, made show horses, so I do consider it a favor to allow her to ride mine, especially jump them in lessons). But it’s her humility in the end that makes me like her so much, and it’s why I let her lesson on my horses at home. I don’t let her catch ride them at shows, my trainer would call someone like Schaefer Raposa, Tori Colvin, etc. so that we would be (mostly) guaranteed a ribbon.
I should also add that I would NEVER allow some random girl who had walked up to my trainer and solicited them at a show to ride my horses, let alone catch ride them in an actual class that I was paying for, let alone someone who had never jumped higher than 2’6"… let alone someone who was such a brat. :eek:
Edited to add that in the end, it’s the people with green who are going to be doing you favors, so you better warm up to those “spoiled rich brats” pretty quickly if you want to become a professional in this world. If you don’t like rich kids, go find a new sport to play.
Graduate from high school and avoid pregnancy.
:lol: Seriously, this made me laugh out loud.
Sound advice, that!
I have been a working student for a BNT for 2 years. I groom, hold horses for vets and farriers, wrap legs, make feed charts ect., and at the VERY end of the day, I might get the leftovers that the professionals didn’t want to do. This is MAYBE 4-5 horses that I give a hack.
Judging by your other posts, you want to show at Wellington and not learn about horse care/ management. This is not what your average working student does. If you really wanted this, you would be willing to take a grooming position and FIGHT your way onto a saddle and prove yourself to the world. And honestly, reading your other posts, you don’t seem willing to do that.
Perhaps doing more research would help you. While be a trainer is not an unrealistic goal, being a BNT or BNR with your background at such a young age is. It sounds like you have potential, but need to focus on working your way up the ladder.
Good luck!!
My path to being an assistant trainer at one of the country’s most prestigious barns started with me having a jr career where I showed at the biggest shows, Devon, Indoors, WEF, Medal Finals, etc. And yet, as I worked my way here, my first job after college was GROOMING. I barely rode all winter gasp. But then in the spring and summer, as I rode more and worked AFTER work breaking and training ponies for local trainers I knew, trainer started letting me ride more. Then having me ride quite a bit. So that by the time I got to FL the next year, I was showing sale horses.
Then gasp I took a manager/groom/all-around-slave job for a private family. Barely jumped. Definitely never thought about showing.
And when I came to the barn I woke at now, I was a manager/exercise rider. For a whole year, not a single jump. Then I would jump a horse every few months. Then I would teach the off flat lesson. Now, after 5 years, I am an assistant trainer. I stayed behind in New York with 33 horses and their owners which I am completely responsible for. But you know what? I still only show maybe 5 times a year, if my horses need a warm-up round. And maybe that will someday change, but if not, I’m not complaining.
I am proof that hard work can get you beyond what your own budget could never afford. But I got here because I was never above any job. I was never stomping around thinking I was too good to be at the bottom of totem pole, I just did whatever I was told to do to the best of my ability. I absorbed and listened, and despite jumping so little in the beginning, I found that when I did get the opportunity, I was riding better than I ever had.
The only way to be at the top is to surround yourself by the best in the business. Whatever job you need to take to be there.
[QUOTE=TheHorseProblem;6086872]
catch rider
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321930
would you…?
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322127
It looks like the OP deleted many of her posts, so you have to read the quotes.[/QUOTE]
Blast you! I had stuff I needed to get done tonight!
As for the OP, not even going to touch it. Been there with the age and the gumption. Not so much with the attitude. Shame she’s so off putting. I actually made it work and made it as a trainer, like many of you who took the time to so kindly answer.
I see I would be wasting my time.
Good luck, OP.
Dear OP - I want to share some words of advice and warnings to you in your journey. I am your age (17) and in the exact position but as of one week ago, I gave up on that dream. Now that is not meant to sound discouraging to you but I’ll tell you WHY I gave up.
I’ve been riding since I was 10. My parents could never pay for ANYTHING, no lessons, leases, shows, or anything. I searched almost every day on craigslist for TWO years for a job. No one wanted a 10 year old working for them. Finally I got a job as a stall cleaner when I was 12. I worked 2x a week and it was enough to pay for a horse. I then got a job working in exchange for lessons at a dressage barn. I found myself a free Arab gelding that needed a LOT of work when I myself had only sat on a horse maybe 10 times. I took my dressage lessons and struggled through with the Arab. Year and a half later, with a lot of fear issues and little progress, I sold the horse and quit the lessons. The trainer was a yeller and I wanted to jump anyways.
I then continued stall cleaning and instead took 2 lessons a month at a jumper barn because that was all I could affward. I leased a new horse that couldn’t jump but boosted my confidence. It took my 3 years to feel completely relaxed at the canter. That barn eventually lost their good school horses and my progress was slow so I quit. My leased horse went back to the owner. 6 months later, got a job at a big time, internationally competing barn. NEVER in my life thought I’d work or ride iwth these riders and professionals. I thought it was my key to the show jumping world. I cannot even tell you how amazing these trainers were. One rider went to the Maclay and came out in the top 10! I worked 2 days a week at that barn, two days a week at another barn. I took lessons every week for one year. In that year I experienced a bunch of rich people looking down on me, feeling sorry for me, ignoring me, and raising their noses at me all at the same time.
My situation in life changed so I could not clean stalls. I was bummed because no more lessons and I’d finally got to where I could jump 2ft courses. I bought my self a great, trained jumper that had a few quirks but stuff I felt confident to work out. My intent was to finally compete. Later the trainers of the barn offered me a grooming position. I worked 5 days a week AND went to community college full time. I worked for them all of 1 month. They took advatage of me, screwed with my lessons, and seemed to expect a lot more from me than I barganed for. I quit one week ago. I was SOOO sick of people looking down on my because my lack of money and not having a $50000 horse. I also got a taste of how much money went into showing. at least $1000 a weekend, 8 months out of the year. Horses in training 3 days a week, leassons 2-3 times a week. An average of $4000 a month. NO WAY.
Here’s my advice:
Be prepared to put up with snobby people. If you have a bad attitude you’ll most likely get yourslef in trouble or get so bitter towards them (like me) and quit. If u can stick it out, great.
Make them let you ride but don’t let yourself think your better than you are. That will surely get you embarassed and let down. Those type of professionals don’t need you. They made that clear to me. So if your hunky doory doing work for them but not getting rides in, they’ll not say a word about letting you ride. They’ll just keep on work’n you to the bone. Also, if you keep pushing to ride horses that are green, they may not let you because your not experienced enough or they think y’ou’ll ruin their nicer horses that ARE trained.
These are mistakes I made, thinking I was better than I was and being embarrassed. Also thinking that hard work could get me anywhere when really, when it comes down to it, horse people want money more than hard work. Anyone that rides has to be a hard worker, but not everyone has money. I feeel like I could never trust a professional again, at least not for a while. I feel like deep down they were all in it for themselves and not to help an less fortunate person out. Of course not everyone is like this.
Good luck!
there seems to be a common misconception that i see among people like this and PE1/skittlespony is a lack of understanding about what a typical working student position is.
it is not a charity position. BNTs don’t just decide one day that they’re going to pick a random 2’ hopeful out of the thousands that there are out there and bring them along under their wing, letting them ride 6 figure Maclay horses and GP jumpers in some sort of effort to mould them into their little prodigy-child. in my experience, BNTs want experienced riders, and riders who have years of experience on the A circuit, and they want them as grooms, not as working students.
most working student positions come about when a rider is excelling beyond the abilities of their current trainer (probably already at the 3’6 level and above) and that trainer has connections to a BNT and refers this rider to the trainer. they generally work something out, the rider has to give up EVERYTHING and move across the state (or country) and devote their days to working at this barn day in and day out, cleaning stalls and grooming for the “rich mortifieds”. even as a working student, the WORKING part of that equation still typically comes first. most of the horses you get will be project horses. you are not going to work for 40 hours a week (which corresponds to about $400, btw) and then magically be given a bigeq horse, a made up junior jumper, or anything of the sort.
and then this is when kids will ask, “what about Zazou? Tori Colvin? etc. etc.”
Zazou won a scholarship. it was in the contract of that scholarship that she was given an almost-free ride to WEF with a BNT. she wasn’t picked out of the blue by the BNT herself. she was already at the 3’6 level, showed true natural talent (that lets face it, most of us don’t have!) and then worked very very very hard for Missy for a long time to realize her Maclay dream. she was not showing in the 2’6 hunters and given the fast track to the top.
Tori should not be looked at as the rule, but rather a VERY big exception. she is a freak of nature and chances are you don’t ride as well as her, or even close. i’m sorry, but she is simply an anomaly in the horse world, in a good way.
hopefully this wasn’t just rambling…i am a little short of sleep. but basically i’m saying that the fast track from the 2’ ring to the Maclay finals as a working student just doesn’t exist. also, when you stated that you should be able to work for what other people pay for, if you want what the “rich mortifieds” have, you might need to work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, AND clone yourself. maybe twice. you don’t even want to know the price tag some pay to show all year at the level that some do. there is no way to recoup those expenses through barn work alone.
OK OK everyone, I hthink ya’ll have given her enough crap. Whether you had good things or bad thigns to say, it did come across as sort bitter as this forum is good at (hence my recent Parelli thread…woops! :eek:Just siad parelli. Shoot me now.)
This girl is someone I think we can all relate too but there is nothing worse than asking for advice and having it come to us sort of harsh. THough I know ya’ll mean well and most were supportive, please just give it up.
One dya she may realize ya’ll were right and feel silly, let her learn it. It’s the thought of a 16 yr old ( i know because I am 17!)
For anyone looking for their ‘big break’ here ya’ go.
[QUOTE=khobstetter;6085878]
OK xemily…I’ll lay it on the line from someone who has a WONDERFUL life in this industry and has bought-sold-trained-ridden and been the ground person for some spectatular horses/riders in this sport. AND someone who was EXACTLY in your shoes at 18…AND as someone who has helped, mentored and encouraged dozens of young professionals my entire career in an effort to give something back to a sport I so dearly LOVE. Been in this business over 40 years, believe in dreams AND believe there is a place in the horse industry for everyone…
There are two paths you can take…the fast one that tears you up, OR the methodical one that will make this a NICE lifetime career for you (and in the end is faster anyway). Do you want to “feel good” quickly or do you want to “be good” for the industry and yourself?? Simple questions but those are YOURS to answer.
I remember sitting on my couch in a VERY tiny apartment when I was 19…crying and whining about wanting to someday “be something in the horse industry and ride great horses” just like you are now. It felt really bad and hopeless since I was young, no money, no support (unlike you who has family and school support according to you)…I HAD NONE!!! Period zip NONE! I rode any horse I could get on at the El Toro Marine Corp base because I did not have a mom with a barn of any kind, nor a place to live if I didn’t figure it out myself…NO SUPPORT, emotionally, physically or emotionally!! BUT I felt like you do so I thought long and hard about how to climb this crazy ladder. Because I had to do it all on my own I learned a lot…and A LOT about what NOT to do.
First off, the industry has changed so much in the last few years (decades) and its a different place now. Staying in it is more difficult and the competition you will face for horses and clients is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more complicated. Media has made it a small world and “word” gets out all over, both positive and negative.
The best advice is knowing ANY career will take quite a bit of time, just like an attorney-doctor-businessman…our industry is the same. The most important thing to SURVIVING in this industry at the level you are talking about is …GET AN EDUCATION AND GET A GOOD ONE!!! Just like a dr/lawyer etc has to learn thier trade, we do now also. ANYONE can get on a horse and train it to some level, ANYONE can hang out a shingle and teach and ANYONE can label themselves a professional.
This industry, and a good life in it, is about marketing YOURSELF and what you have to offer…LEARN MARKETING. This industry is now big time business…LEARN BUSINESS. This industry is now competitive at all levels of teaching/training…LEARN STRADEGY.
WITHOUT THOSE YOU WILL SUFFER NEEDLESSLY…you may feel good for a time but what a difficult way to do what you love.
I DO NOT say this like a lot of people do…they say you have to have something to fall BACK on…NOPE, you have to have something to move FORWARD on. It is in your court and at your age and with your energy…you can make it but be VERY smart about it.
Now to the reality of your posts…you went on a long time about what you want, why you are special and why you are different. I have to tell you that you say the same thing hundreds of young riders say, so don’t think you are any different than dozens of others. I say that to let you know who you are “competing” against for a leg up…your competing against dozens of kids just like yourself. Be sure you accept that and get smart about what to do next and next and next.
For me…and for me alone…there are flags in ALL of your posts that would make me really doubt if I wanted to give my precious time to you or would be better off giving it to another young one. FIRST, your a little critical about being the only one who feels this way…BE HUMBLE A BIT. NEXT, anything anyone has posted to help give advice and direction, your quick to point out how they are wrong and they don’t know you…they don’t have to. BUT MOSTLY…your comments that at your age you are not attached to anything (your words)…THAT would make me nervous and not sure if you would get attached to anything I had to say or offer. Sounds like you would drop any situation for a “better one” at any given moment…sounds like a taker and not a “partner” in the learning process. Figure out how ti come across as a partner!!
And your comment to one poster …“I’ve repeated myself a lot, you seem to see only the things you can argue with me about. I’m not asking for a situation like that I’m asking to work for a situation like that.” WOW THAT IS TACKY from a 16 year old who has asked for opinions here. The poster gave good advice, BUT not advice or opinion you wanted so you shot back at her!! A 16 year old with a trigger that quick would NOT be someone I would get excited about giving precious time too.
SO TO END…stop and listen!! Take it all in, doesn’t mean you have to agree BUT there are jewels of wisdom for you on this thread…HEAR THEM. If you will settle down, get a little humble and listen, you might just get the leg up you are wanting…BUT FIRST YOU HAVE TO HAVE STOP THE ATTIDUDE.
Say thanks and reply instead of coming back with the why the posters are wrong and you are right. COTH is a wonderful place and there are dozens of posters with amazing advice…HEAR IT, be the kind of responder that people will want to help. Pounding us is certainly NOT the way to make us interested in your plight.
So go ahead and have a hack at me if oyu want…its ok, I understand. As Cruisin said…go for your dreams, they ARE reachable…just be the kind of responder people will want to give their ladder to…GOOD LUCK EMILY…[/QUOTE]
Superb post, Kathy!
[QUOTE=gallopinggal;6087076]
OK OK everyone, I hthink ya’ll have given her enough crap. Whether you had good things or bad thigns to say, it did come across as sort bitter as this forum is good at (hence my recent Parelli thread…woops! :eek:Just siad parelli. Shoot me now.)
This girl is someone I think we can all relate too but there is nothing worse than asking for advice and having it come to us sort of harsh. THough I know ya’ll mean well and most were supportive, please just give it up.
One dya she may realize ya’ll were right and feel silly, let her learn it. It’s the thought of a 16 yr old ( i know because I am 17!)[/QUOTE]
It’s not like she has time to read it anyway. :lol: Or at least not the ‘harsh’ stuff.
I’m almost 19 and was like you when I was younger, until I realized that the horse industry is not the way to go. Go to college, even if it’s just community college, and you can ride on the side until you get a degree and get a good job to support your horse habit.
[QUOTE=Heinz 57;6085415]
Now, bear in mind that I reside primarily in eventing and dressage land, but… when you don’t have the big money to go buy a five or six figure horse and ride with the four-figure-a-month trainer, what do you do to make a ‘name’ for yourself? You train up your own horses, compete them to the best of your financial ability, and you create a reputation by winning.[/QUOTE]
^This. I bought a 2 yr old, broke it, got it started, took it to some high end local show series for a year, cleaned up there, made a name for myself and my pony. I got offered 2xs what I paid for him the second show I took him to, 3.5 times a few months later, then 6X WHAT I PAID FOR HIM a few months after that.
As for me? People saw all the baby sh*t I dealt with and worked through (even at shows) and saw the finished product I created and saw how good I was with problem horses and greenies. I got a boat load of catch rides and people wanting me to come to their farm and train their animals as well as show them (and pay me to do so). And yes, almost all of them were either just broke, only doing cross rails or small fences because they were green, or were problem horses. And the shows were not big rated shows, but I didn’t care I loved it. I got a job riding for the ex Raven’s coach Brian Billick as well training his horses and teaching him and his wife how to ride.
You say you can train horses… you want to make money? Buy unbroke horses and flip them in 3 months. Keep them any longer than that you will usually lose money. Almost any rider can sit on a fancy horse and go around a 3ft course and win because the horse knows it’s job and jumps in good form. Not many riders have the ability to train a greenie.
edit: Oh and take it from someone recently thrown into the grown up world and reality… IT EFFIN SUCKS and is not easy. Get a good job that’s going to make you money to be able to afford whatever horse you want and keep horses your hobby. Money disappears in the grown up world faster than you can blink and you have no clue where it went. I work in an office 40 hours a week, take four college courses, and ride my just broke baby 5 to 6 times a week. I make just enough to pay for his board. I know I will never be able to afford to show him. It sucks because he is SUPER talented and I would so love to take him to the indoors when he is older and win, but instead in a few years I will sell him ready for rated and have some money in my pocket.
Heinz, that is the sort of thing that GG is talking about. How is knocking this girl down on an online forum going to help her? If that has to happen, let her learn the hard lesson of humility in someone else’s barn.
I don’t know if anyone else is at all concerned about this, but the tone of this forum has definitely changed for the worse. It’s not anyone’s fault in particular, and I feel that we are all guilty of it to some degree, but we need to stop being so short and judgmental with each other. It isn’t representing the horse world or the Chronicle in a positive light at all.
I did NOT knock her down. I repeated what she admitted, that she doesn’t have time to read all the replies and that she’s taken what she wanted from this and left. In my previous post, I asked an honest question and offered some constructive advice that has been repeated by MANY highly regarded professionals on this thread. She admitted that she’s too busy to read those replies. Some of those replies may have been written by people with the means to offer her the opportunities she seeks.
I don’t think anyone here is knocking her down - in fact, I think 99% of the replies she’s gotten have tried to show her how to build the steps to get into the career she wants.
[QUOTE=catosis;6087231]
I don’t know if anyone else is at all concerned about this, but the tone of this forum has definitely changed for the worse. It’s not anyone’s fault in particular, and I feel that we are all guilty of it to some degree, but we need to stop being so short and judgmental with each other. It isn’t representing the horse world or the Chronicle in a positive light at all.[/QUOTE]
TOTALLY agree. I realize now that Parelli is a big no no, but just because someone had a terrible experience with it does not give them the right to write me 10 pages of crap, telling me what a horrible person I am for even LOOKING INTO it. Really, no manners or respect.
[QUOTE=gallopinggal;6087283]
TOTALLY agree. I realize now that Parelli is a big no no, but just because someone had a terrible experience with it does not give them the right to write me 10 pages of crap, telling me what a horrible person I am for even LOOKING INTO it. Really, no manners or respect.[/QUOTE]
Says the person who’s been here all of a minute.
Honestly.
The people posting on this thread aren’t being harsh - they are posting from experience. The “equestrian world” isn’t a place where all your dreams come true - it’s a serious business populated with serious people. You want to play in the big leagues? Then suck it up, Buttercup. It doesn’t come easy and it doesn’t come free.
Someone who truly wanted to make it in the industry would take the incredible amount of insight found in this thread and would put it to good use.
The rest will pout about how everyone’s being a big meanie head and they will get exactly nowhere.
Y’all should read my sig line and take it to heart - the road to the top is a long one.
I think this thread is actually a credit to the horse industry as a whole and to the COTH community in particular. A lot of us with personal experience moving up through the ranks and riding professionally gave the OP decent chunks of our time in the way of thoughtful posts chock full of useful advice meant to help her work toward her goals. Should we Molly Coddle her after her she showed a clear lack of interest or appreciation for the time we took out of our schedules to help her? Who would? It’s not because we’re horse people that we don’t suffer unappreciative brats. :rolleyes:
It may not come easy or free, but it doesn’t have to come ungraciously. Yes, it is a hard business to make it in, but we don’t (the horse community) have to make it any harder than it has to be by having sour attitudes to someone with clearly good intentions and the motivation to make something happen for herself. Why not offer her constructive advice (which I acknowledge has been done for the most part) with less of the nasty “It’s a tough world, kid. Suck it up, kid. No one cares about you, kid. There are a thousand other girls just like you, kid” stuff. I honestly do not believe that OP was trying to rub anyone the wrong way, nor was she looking to be insulted, which is probably why she just all of a sudden had no time to read the posts.
What I saw in those posts was just a normal, horse-crazed girl who is determined to make her passion into her career. If she did get a little presumptuous about it, I am sure it did not require the virtual napalm to manage. Although I suppose that would have been in violation of rule #12.
We post anonymously. We don’t have to act like jerks about it.
QUOTE]Zazou won a scholarship. it was in the contract of that scholarship that she was given an almost-free ride to WEF with a BNT. she wasn’t picked out of the blue by the BNT herself. she was already at the 3’6 level, showed true natural talent (that lets face it, most of us don’t have!) and then worked very very very hard for Missy for a long time to realize her Maclay dream. she was not showing in the 2’6 hunters and given the fast track to the top.[/QUOTE]
This is not totally accurate. If you want to know the real story, I suggest you contact her mom who post here on Coth as Andy Warhol or her California trainer, Release First.
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