LOL well my horse is 9 this year and he’s only showing third because the changes have been especially hard. I’ve put changes on other horses and my 5, coming 6 year old can do the changes very easily. My older one is capable and does all of the movements of fourth level reasonably well but the changes have held us back in regards of showing. We’ll eventually get them sorted out (well on our way FINALLY) but it’s a process. He’s a homebred who I don’t ever plan to sell unless something happens to me that’s catastrophic. The plan is to go as high as he’s able to go. I don’t expect piaffe which he does reasonably well or passage will be what holds him back. It will be the one tempi’s but I’m willing to work with him to see what evolves. There is a bit of a race in some sense because I turn 60 this year. I have my bronze and silver (each earned on previous horses). My dream is to earn my gold with one I bred, put on the ground, backed and trained up the levels. I hope to be able to do it before either or us are no longer able to go the distance; but, other than that I can’t say that I in any way obsess over what this horse’s age is vs. where he is in the training. I’ve continued to work on the basics which is the key and the movements are easier to develop once the basics are solid. I can’t really produce him any faster than what I am, as I am an amateur with a full time job and I also want him to stay sound. My coming six year old is only at first level in competition. As far as I’m concerned it is what it is and based on how he feels underneath me we’ll stay there until he’s ready (of course we’re already working SI, traver and renver at home). For amateurs especially, it really should be all about the journey and keeping our horses sound and happy. Each horse and rider is different. To obsess on whether or not a specific horse is behind in the training as compared to a pro ride isn’t worth the stress and misery one puts oneself through however the issue is worth consideration to determine if there is a hole in the training that needs to be fixed and/or the one doing the training is struggling (needs help or in my case needed ‘different’ help). My ‘older’ guy initially learned how to do the flying change correctly so I knew he physically could do them; but, he then found a way to do them ‘more efficiently’ and chose to get married to that method (skip-a-change). It not only took a long time to find an eye on the ground knowledgeable in what it was going to take to ‘untrain’ my guy and the commitment from us both (since I’ve been doing the riding) to take the time (as long as it takes) to fix this problem. And to your point SO WHAT???.. I really don’t measure myself, my horse(s) or my journey with anybody else’s measuring stick. I am still riding what I love and love what I ride. Isn’t that the point? Now if I were producing this horse for someone else, or campaigning him for my [former] breeding program or for sale my outlook would be entirely different.
Behind in training-interesting expression.
Rate of training depends on the horse,and to the intuition of the rider. For horses, and people some things come easily, others require time and patience. Podhajsky put it nicely, " I haver time".
As someone who’s not super competitive it doesn’t bother me much if my horses are “behind” especially since I don’t have lofty goals. For someone aiming at the upper levels, or a pro, it’s wisest to purchase a horse who’s roughly where it should be at its age.
Everyone’s personal journey is different.
Everyone has their personal journey. What my trainer has as a goal when importing a horse from Europe or shopping locally is a lot different from my goals and time line.
I started a horse under saddle at 15 and it had great scores at T and 1st until it died of cancer at 18. But I’m not a professional aimed at the upper levels so I enjoyed my journey.
“Behind in training” has minimal or no bearing right up until/unless you’re looking to sell.
Base price is built on resume + potential-- arguably with a coefficient for seller name recognition too. A young horse is all potential and no resume; a veteran FEI horse with a show record as long as your arm is all resume with not much more potential.
And then there are the horses in between. “Behind in the training” attempts to build more value on “potential” given the lack of resume compared to similarly aged peers. Often accompanied by “through no fault of his/her own”, this phrase looks to establish that the horse hasn’t topped out yet.
I think the “one level a year” thing probably haunts good trainers who have to explain uneven progress to their clients. And try to retain them.
I think we know that progress is usually uneven. Many of the trainers I know of certainly dont aim for one show level per year (except perhaps horses doing the young horse classes) A horse may show at a low level for exposure and then not see the show ring until a much higher level. In the meantime it often has some movements that are higher level and some lower due to its abilities and it would be difficult to say what show level it is at.
Overall, I would want to know why a horse was at training level at age 10. Injury, pregnancy, other discipline, behavior, etc?
Certainly the top competitors feel the pressure of time so that they can polish the GP and show before age starts taking some flexibility. Most of us are not worried about that stratosphere.
There are way too many variables to generalize on the speed/slowness of training. But… a LOT of it has to do with bragging rights. 
Totally agree especially since most of us who do have experience training horses (whether for ourselves or for others) understand that the progression with dressage is NOT linear. Those who try to make it linear and are good riders often find themselves knocking on the door of the upper levels with many holes in the foundation and then struggle. THAT can cause injury to one or the other or both or said horse is deemed to have ‘topped out’ when who knows what another training program may have accomplished.
Yes I agree “behind in training” is putting a spin on potential.
The horse could be “topped out at 2nd” or could be “confirmed ammie safe 2nd level horse.”
As far as progress “up the levels” a pro will sell off any horses that don’t meet their goals, and a “confirmed second level horse” is aspirational for many ammies.
I only see “behind on training” for green broke older fell through the cracks horses. If the horse is showing Training or First level that’s a huge brag in the ads I see
I have never seen any ammie or even backyard pro go up “a level a year” unless it’s Training to First. Now I’m at the low end of nice horses. So I don’t get to see deep pocketed ammies with purpose bred horses in wrap around training programs.
But I don’t think anyone anywhere uses “behind in training” except in a sales ad. It’s not something to best yourself up in comparing yourself to some hypothetical mean girl. Its like house sales. No one says curb appeal except in a real estate ad. About your own house you talk about your gardening plans
But where is that? I think that’s the point of the thread - what determines what level a horse should be schooling at 5, 6, 7, 8, or beyond? As most have agreed, it depends on a lot of factors. The horse being first and foremost of those. It also depends on the trainer’s skill/ability, whether or not the horse will be shown, and other things. No two horses will progress at the same pace.
I think in the competitive arena, there is encouragement to pull them up the levels too fast, whether intentional or not. The FEI for 4 year olds is the equivalent of a first level test. I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t even start a horse until it’s four. I certainly don’t expect them to be solid enough at 1st level to show by then. Yet I have a client who started her little Arabian mare at 2. Now that the filly is 3, she’ll be showing her this year. So next year, we have an eye on the FEI for 4 year olds. I consider her an exception in my program. And yes, had she asked me, I would have told her in no uncertain terms to not back that filly before she was three. But this is the world we live in as professionals. The clients often want to rush to compete before they’re ready. If you tell them they or their horse, or both, are not ready, they will just find another trainer who will take them to a show. So again, that competitiveness can drive people to push their horses too far too fast.
Using the timelines presented by the FEI through the young and developing horse tests is ridiculous for most horses and riders. Those programs are targeted for the elite rider developing their next team horse. Those horses have some of the basics so innate (rhythm, uphill balance, some even have collection, etc) that it is easier to move up the levels–they should be the top specimens. Most horses have one or two things that they might struggle with as they go up the levels, or they physically or mentally mature late. Those horses will NOT be selected for YH programs. Additionally, to be highly competitive as a four year old, many of those horses are broken out at 2.5.
I did accomplish a level a year (actually two levels the first year we showed) with my last horse. However, she was not mentally capable of showing until she was 7–she was hot, spooky, unreliable and did not have the confidence in me when she was five, for example, to show. She needed a lot of work to build up her confidence and a lot of other types of outtings. When I did start showing at age 7, she moved up the levels very successfully. We did have a gap between I1 and I2 (I showed I1 freestyle instead) and I2 and GP, because, largely, I started pi/pa too late to really be developed by the time we started to show it. So while she technically was “behind”, I guess (showed 3rd/4th at age 9; 4th/PSG at age 10; PSG/I1 at age 11; I1 freestyle age 12; 1-2 age 13 and GP at age 15), she got where she needed to go. By the time I retired her at age 18, she had really developed the pi/pa. With the one I am training now, he is 5 and has less than a year under saddle, but is mentally further than the mare was. He will go to a pi/pa clinic this summer to get started so that I can normalize this work into his regular work. He is still working on basics, but much more advanced than the mare at the same age. So it depends on the horse. I am an amateur though and I don’t need to make money off of my horses and can take my time and enjoy the training without pushing to meet show deadlines. We have a very short show season here and I think it is silly to train around that. But again, I’m not trying to sell or make teams.
Using timelines for horse training is silly, but you really have to consider where YOU want to be. If your goal is to ride GP in x number of years, then don’t put that on the horse–go buy yourself a trained GP horse and learn how to ride it. If your goal is to get to third level in your horse’s lifetime, I think that is possible with most horses and riders.
I agree about the starting. I start mine at 3.5, but they get several three month breaks during the first year and a half and are ready to go to work at age 5. I’m not competing in the FEI YH tests with that schedule, but I don’t want to either.
I just came back from an event for future judges for young horses and wanted to share my thoughts regarding the behind in training topic….
We, the demo riders rode a YH test for 4 year olds. And the group was 3 horses. The future judges gave scores for conformation, the quality of the gaits and the ridability.
The first horse was a well trained rather leggy horse with gaits which were nice but not exciting, the second horse was beautiful but a bit small and going too much forward downwards, my horse was behind in Training so her ridability was subpar, and obviousy her conformation was old fashioned but she displayed three high quality gaits.
So now the judges praised the leggy horse for being a modern type but they complained about the short gaits. The second horse they liked a lot but worried about the neck which was set too deep.
And my horse they declared to be old fashioned (she is a more sturdy type with a lot of bone ) and gave her the lowest score….
One future judge complained that having a modern conformation without great gaits wouldn’t make sense to her. (Actually I agreed with her).
But my thoughts are a bit different… That horse was so well trained that it lost its young horse horse charme. His expression was like an 8 year old…
My horse was behind in her training and was rightfully marked down for that but she had presence and looked like a young horse. So my thoughts for this event are that sometimes with young horses being behind in their training must not be a bad thing…. If you train them too much to early they loose their expression.
I rode my last young horse class years ago and I don’t remember that they had to be trained up to first level at that age… I am not sure if this is a good developement…. Sure for great riders it’s probably not a problem to train them and preserve their young horse mentality but IMO it’s easy to overtrain them to keep up with the demands……
Interesting! I have had no exposure to FEI Young Horse competition. From what you say this sounds like it’s an evaluation of type and potential and conformation as much as it is about training. You would not get those kinds of comments on a Training or First Level test. Is my impression correct?
It was extremly interesting and I never participated in something like this before. I tried to listed as much as possible to the future judges discussion and their thoughts and I also talked to the instructing judges afterwards. I learned a lot today!!! If you simply go to a show and compete you never hear all these insights!!!
I was a bit scared about the future of judging afterwards…. I grew up with the concept that you look at a horse and look at the overall appearance and quality. Then you go from there. These young judges picked some parts of the horses and decided on the quality of the horse based on that…. But I assume they will learn a lot more before they will be ready to judge real shows (I hope)
So is the goal of the FEI Young Horse class to assess the potential and conformation of the horse, more like an inhand class at a breed show? Or is it more like a regular dressage class to evaluate just the training?
Well after today I am not sure anymore…. I always thought the quality of the gaits, correct conformation and ridability are the criteria, but today I got the impression that the focus now is more on the level of training…… I guess the goal should be to have both!! 
.
I will focus on her training from now on for sure!!! I know her mind is ready to take it now! But I confess I will never sacrifice her expression for training. She is only just 4 and we have all the time in the world…
The categories are different in that there are no scores for specific movements in the YH tests.
The horse is scored for Walk, Trot, Canter, Submission, & “Perspective” (Overall impression).
I don’t know where you are that you don’t have any exposure to these classes, but they’re interesting to watch and to overhear the feedback if you can get to a show that has them. I try to observe them at the shows I compete in, even though I’m not planning to ever participate in YH myself.
When USEF livestreams the Festival of Champions in Lamplight every August they do include the judges’ remarks after the rides so that’s one way to sit in, virtually. Although the sound quality isn’t always great.
The primary focus is on the quality of the horse’s gaits and its potential, yes. Training issues like late transitions or slow to develop medium gaits that would normally be dinged in the movement scores are instead considered in the “Submission” box. They might mention it, but an overall naturally spectacular canter for example will still score highly even if the mediums weren’t promptly at the letter.
Hope that helps.
Presumably people can volunteer to scribe for these classes too? That would be an education!
I am in a part of Canada where we have a handful of Equine Canada rated shows each year, and some schooling series. You can do Training to Fourth national tests, or you can do FEI tests (very sparse enrolment in these). I have never seen an FEI Young Horse test offered at an EC show. Can you get them at the EC/USEF level or are they a CDI thing? Because we don’t have CDI here. They ran one once in a lead up to Olympics qualification year.
Anyhow no one based here is on the CDI circuit, folks from here who want that relocate. I don’t know what the value would be in taking a random horse in the FEI Young Horse class if it’s not on that particular trajectory?
