"Behind in training"

[Manni01]

Well I am interested, did you ever start a young horse? You are talking about being late at a transition or extensions being slow to develope…. Yes 3 year olds started at three and entered in these classes at 4 have one year of training already and did probably millions of transitions so they should be right on point….

But I would recommend to get a started three year old and do all these transitions for a year. I personally believe there is a good chance to fry their minds in that young age…. I never really thought about it because I usually don’t do these classes and after today I know why……

[Silverbridge]

My response has nothing to do with my own riding & training and that’s not what she was asking about. I’ve watched many of these classes and I have also had the chance to scribe them. Of course people do transitions late or slow to develop sometimes. Just like they do in any other class from Training Level to GP. It’s not an insult to say they do & not meant to imply that they don’t belong in the class. It’s just a markdown against the ideal.

Scribbler-- no they don’t have to be at CDIs but to qualify for champs they do have to be double judged (I think?). So the show has to at least be big enough for two rings so that there are at least two officials onsite already. I don’t think a one-ring, one-judge show can offer qualifying YH classes.

And they will typically have them first thing in the AM or at the end of day, or, after lunch break so that they can assemble both judges at one ring for the qualifiers and then open the second ring for regular tests after the double-judged ones.

At shows I get over to in California they do tend to be offered at CDIs and the quality of young horses is exciting as is the number of rides in each class. But even there they have them at shows that are not CDIs.

And in Arizona we have them offered at our regular rated shows in Phoenix & Tucson but here you might only have one competitor at each level, if that many. And it’s still interesting (to me, anyway) even if the horse is not naturally a championship-level mover, because the feedback is aloud.

So to your last comment the value is in getting that outsiders’, expert feedback specifically on the horse’s quality of gaits & potential to impress, with more info & explanation than you’d get from what’s written in the little boxes on the regular tests.

[lorilu]

totally agree. I was lucky enough to scribe some YH tests a few years ago at Lamplight. SInce I was with the two judges “on the side”, I didnt have to write anything, just watch and be sure the rider didnt go off course. The judges communicated with eachother over walkies during the test, and came to consensus as to final scores, then the Judge at C discussed the test with the rider. Highly recommend watching the livestream!!

[Scribbler]

Yes they sound very useful if you have a horse of that calibre. We just don’t have that community here.

[BigMama1]

@Scribbler

I have never seen any ammie or even backyard pro go up “a level a year” unless it’s Training to First. Now I’m at the low end of nice horses. So I don’t get to see deep pocketed ammies with purpose bred horses in wrap around training programs.

Just to prove anecdotally that it’s not all people on six figure, purpose-bred superstars, a girl I board with did go up a level a year, every year, from Training though to I-1with her Clyde / Hackney cross, with solid scores at each level.

He is an exceptionally willing horse and she is a very talented, motivated rider who has an excellent coach. Study sample of 1, but just wanted to confirm it’s not impossible!

With a good trainer / coach, a willing, sound horse, and enough time to put into your own riding, I think a level a year is reasonable for most ammies from Intro through Second.

I see too many people spending a lot of time, money and effort who want to progress but are held back by a coach / trainer who doesn’t have the skillset required. If they are stuck at Training or First for 2, 3, even 4 years in a row (and yes I’ve seen that), it’s time to find a new coach. If they are happy competing at Training forever and just want to keep improving their scores at that level, there’s nothing wrong with that either. But if they want to move up and are not making progress at the most basic levels, there’s a problem.

[BigMama1]

@Scribbler

I am in a part of Canada where we have a handful of Equine Canada rated shows each year, and some schooling series. You can do Training to Fourth national tests, or you can do FEI tests (very sparse enrolment in these). I have never seen an FEI Young Horse test offered at an EC show. Can you get them at the EC/USEF level or are they a CDI thing? Because we don’t have CDI here. They ran one once in a lead up to Olympics qualification year.

I’m in the Toronto area and several of our EC Gold shows offer the FEI young horse tests. They tend to have only a couple of entries, usually young stock owned by breeders and ridden by pros, but not always. Very interesting to hear the judges comments.

[Scribbler]

The lack of progress I observe tends to be a combination of the rider’s skill set and physical fitness, and coaches that cut corners so they have nothing to build on after first level.

[BigMama1]

I know a few local coaches whose students never ever get past working at First Level, whether or not they compete. Such coaches just don’t have the knowledge or experience to understand that “dressage” is different than riding on the flat, yet anyone can call themselves a “dressage coach.” Not surprisingly, these trainers’ personal horses never progress past First Level either.

Some students are perfectly content to do the same thing year after year, and that’s great. I have no issues with that. But when I see someone who really does want to improve and who is putting the work in with no results year after year, I almost feel compelled to stage an intervention lol.

[netg]

@lorilu

totally agree. I was lucky enough to scribe some YH tests a few years ago at Lamplight. SInce I was with the two judges “on the side”, I didnt have to write anything, just watch and be sure the rider didnt go off course. The judges communicated with eachother over walkies during the test, and came to consensus as to final scores, then the Judge at C discussed the test with the rider. Highly recommend watching the livestream!!

How interesting! I have only seen judges join together in the box, and they discussed as the test went on and had me take notes. Obviously the way it’s done at Lamplight is going to be a way it’s allowed, so I just learned today that both judges in the box at C is not required.

I like the part @Silverbridge mentions, that in many ways especially the 4 year old test allows a looser, more free flowing ride for young horses than their having to exactly perfectly transition at the right points. I’ve known horses who could have ridden a 4 year old young horse test within about 15 rides, obviously with a pro very experienced at riding young horses on board. I have not ridden enough young horses that as an amateur I could ever see myself anywhere close to able to do one adequately. However, I would absolutely consider doing especially the 4 year old test with a horse who just seemed like it would be too much pressure for transitions at the right letter, because schooling at home I go quite a while focusing on the quality of the transition before I start timing it to exact spots in the arena. If I went into a young horse test, I’d certainly have different expectations than someone aiming for Lamplight

[enjoytheride]

@BigMama1

I know a few local coaches whose students never ever get past working at First Level, whether or not they compete. Such coaches just don’t have the knowledge or experience to understand that “dressage” is different than riding on the flat, yet anyone can call themselves a “dressage coach.” Not surprisingly, these trainers’ personal horses never progress past First Level either.

Some students are perfectly content to do the same thing year after year, and that’s great. I have no issues with that. But when I see someone who really does want to improve and who is putting the work in with no results year after year, I almost feel compelled to stage an intervention lol.

SPOT ON!!!

There seems to be a lot of sour grapes from people who view those who do move up quickly. If their scores reflect that, the horse is happy, the move up is right. A suitable horse and qualified instruction are what it takes. If someone doesn’t have those goals then they can do whatever makes them happy, but people who do move up the levels shouldn’t be knocked down as some sort of ribbon oriented monster who doesn’t take care of their horse.

I’m stuck right where I am for my own reasons but my friend who’s 7yo was started at 5 and is showing third now is doing just fine and has now “caught up”

[Equibrit]

Keep these in mind;

Blue Horse Matine,
Totilas,
Woodlander Farouche,

Good judgement, making for appropriate decisions, is hard to acquire. (Especially when there is $$$ involved)

[rcy]

thank you all for the comments, this is interesting

[lorilu]

Matinee and Totillas are old examples. Matinee was euthanized after breaking her leg in a pasture accident. . Totillas was sold and never rose to the heights again under a new and different rider. That is not an unusual thing with stallions.
Woodlanders Farouche was retired after an injury she was unable to recover from to competition level. While she was competing her owners brought her up levels then down, a few times, trying to get things right. Frankly isn’t that a good decision?

How are these examples of $$ interfering with “appropriate decisions”?

[Scribbler]

If you want to find casualties you need to look at the horses that drop out that you never hear about. I know a couple of trainers who can crock a horse moving from Training to First Level. It’s about biomechanically bad riding not about the “tricks” per se.

[Equibrit]

Blue Hors Matine Died Unexpectedly

Totilas. How a Magnificent Stallion Became a Poor Creature.

Eilbergs break silence on Farouche’s future - Horse & Hound

[enjoytheride]

I’m not sure how this is relevant. Not all horses are suitable for upper level dressage. Your poor experiences with bad dressage trainers doesn’t mean all young horses moving up the levels have bad trainers.

[enjoytheride]

Matinee broke a leg in turnout. How is that related to the discussion?

[lorilu]

Because you can “expect” a pasture accident??
Because a horse had connection problems as a YOUNG horse? And just to say I was lucky enought o see Totilas twice… and yes, he was tight in the neck. But not “biting his own chest”…
Because owners decided to retire her to breeding??
Did you even read the articles??

Again, OLD NEWS from MANY YEARS AGO.

[J-Lu]

@Scribbler

I have never seen any ammie or even backyard pro go up “a level a year” unless it’s Training to First. Now I’m at the low end of nice horses. So I don’t get to see deep pocketed ammies with purpose bred horses in wrap around training programs.

I have and I did on two horses. I know many ammies who did, also. I got regional champ and reserve regional champ, plus champs with my local GMO at 3rd and 4th level. I took the horses from training level up. I had to go down levels to earn my bronze, which I think was a waste of my time and money. My current horse couldn’t be mentally occupied to show under second level. I tried intro and first level with him and no matter the preparation, he spooked at the flowers,the letters, the judges stand because the lighting was different and then again at the ring steward as she changed pages.

The USDF has to come to better grips with who is showing and the horses they are showing. I’d be very pissed off if I started Sir SpooksAlot at higher levels but was forced to get scores at TL. There’s too much boring work at that level, giving him time to look around and spook. Plus, I’m not inclined to pay to show him Training, First and Second just to get scores. I already did that and what a waste of my money.

[Scribbler]

@J-Lu

@Scribbler

I have never seen any ammie or even backyard pro go up “a level a year” unless it’s Training to First. Now I’m at the low end of nice horses. So I don’t get to see deep pocketed ammies with purpose bred horses in wrap around training programs.

I have and I did on two horses. I know many ammies who did, also. I got regional champ and reserve regional champ, plus champs with my local GMO at 3rd and 4th level. I took the horses from training level up. I had to go down levels to earn my bronze, which I think was a waste of my time and money. My current horse couldn’t be mentally occupied to show under second level. I tried intro and first level with him and no matter the preparation, he spooked at the flowers,the letters, the judges stand because the lighting was different and then again at the ring steward as she changed pages.

The USDF has to come to better grips with who is showing and the horses they are showing. I’d be very pissed off if I started Sir SpooksAlot at higher levels but was forced to get scores at TL. There’s too much boring work at that level, giving him time to look around and spook. Plus, I’m not inclined to pay to show him Training, First and Second just to get scores. I already did that and what a waste of my money.

Yes I believe you. That’s why riders on the FEI track don’t muck around getting their good hot keen young horses mellow enough to ride on a long rein in Training level and losing all the impulsion.

Do you need to get a Bronze before you get Silver or Gold? Or can you just go get Gold if that’s where your horse is at?

Equine Canada just got rid of our medal system. It was under subscribed. Coaches do the EC certification.