Belgian Drafts for Dressage

[Strictly_Classical]

Just curious regarding opinions of others on the use of Belgian drafts (NOT Belgian warmbloods) for dressage.

I am a firm believer that basic dressage training is good for all breeds of riding horses, no matter the breed. However, I am curious about the suitability of this breed with regards of progressing up the levels of dressage, especially at second level and higher.

Since this breed was originally intended and specifically bred for farm work and pulling larger carriages/wagons I would assume that they are well adapted for pulling heavy loads. How would this conformational characteristics cross over to a riding discipline that seeks to elevate the forehand, lower the haunches, and increase collection as one progresses up the levels.

These are hypothetical musings only. I just wondering what others think or what experiences people may have had with this breed used for riding.

I came across a website for a farm that breeds these horses and noticed that they are not only selling these animals as driving horses but also billing them as “dressage” horses. I am having a bit of trouble making that “crossover” in my mind.

Please don’t think I’m posting this out of snarkiness; I am simply trying to become enlightened and understand the suitability of the breed to higher level dressage.

[NCSue]

I owned a Belgian mare. Marvelous horse with a gigantic heart. Taught me that not all drafts are slow, clumsy, or dull. She was sensitive, forward, hard worker, and had a sense of humor. She also had a high sense of justice. Drafties get offended easily. I did ride dressage on her, but it was a challenge. After awhile I realized that she was giving me her all and that was it. She has gone on to have a very successful driving career and is much happier. Many drafts, and not just Belgians, simply aren’t going to be competitive horses. This can be true for some draft crosses also. Each horse much be considered individually. Their conformation doesn’t allow it for the most part – throatlatch too thick to truly be able to flex and come onto the bit, getting off the forehand and using the hindquarters, correctness of gait – many tend to be lateral especially at the canter, inability to stretch, inability to truly extend. While I believe that dressage is for every horse not every horse is a “dressage” show horse. I seriously doubt many full drafts will get much above 1st level, maybe 2nd. They can be great horses for the owner who wants to do a little of this and a little of that. I have a friend who foxhunts, rides dressage, and drives. All her horses are drafts or draft crosses. I am always amazed at all the horses I see advertised as dressage horses.

[Bobthehorse]

I should think that riding any horse not conformationally suitable to dressage over 2nd level would be difficult. Not to mention incredibly frustrating for the horse and the rider, and probably very hard on the horse physically. Some horses just arent built for that kind of work, which means its harder on their bodies than it would be for a more talented horse.

Right off the bat I see a heavy front end, course head (often means a horse that is not so soft in the mouth), and hind end conformation not suited to collection.

Every horse can benefit from dressage training, and any sound horse can do well in the lower levels. But MOST full drafts, stock breeds and other types not known for light forehands or hind ends built for collection are just not going to be competitive at the upper levels, and I personally dont think its fair to try to make them do something that is just not for them. Not every horse is suitable for everything, especially when talking ULs, and accepting that is not discrimination. Though I personally think drafts and drafts crosses are great all arounders, but I dont buy into the “they are the ultimate sport horse, everyone who disagrees is just a snob” theory.

[Ambrey]

Haven’t we had this discussion about 100 times before?

It always ends up with a whole bunch of generalizations, usually based on someone’s experience with PMU horses or Amish horses purpose bred for harness work.

I don’t have any experience with Belgians, and wasn’t aware that anyone was breeding them for under saddle work. Percherons, otoh, are becoming pretty popular as riding horses, including dressage.

I have a percheron x (quarter horse, who woulda thunk that would make a good mix?) and he is a fabulous dressage horse. Is he gonna make GP? Doubtful, but even if I’d bought the nicest dressage horse on the planet that wouldn’t be likely to happen

Part of my issue with “can these horses be competitive?” is the idea that it’s all about the horse anyway. At 4th/PSG there are a lot of not-so-talented riders on great horses. There is plenty of room for talented riders with decent horses (not that I’m one of them, but I like to think that with a talented rider he could go far!).

He hasn’t been in training that long, so we’ve yet to determine whether he is really going to be able to get past 2nd. My trainer is enjoying bringing him along and I’m enjoying reaping the benefits As for fairness… wha?? You think he’s in the dressage arena going “damn, I wanted to pull a cart today!” He loves it, honestly, and has a huge heart. I am not sure what type of situation you’re picturing that would be “unfair,” but I’m guessing this is not it

I ride every day in an arena with 6 figure horses. Yes, I can see the difference SOME things are much harder for him- like the throatlatch, his lack of “boing boing” gaits, etc. But, some things are truly easy for him- laterals, learning new things, agility and precision (some WBs do not have these things in their favor!). I had never planned to show, but I would love to see how he’d do… if it wasn’t so damned expensive

[Strictly_Classical]

Thanks for the responses so far. I have enjoyed reading them!

I guess I wasn’t very clear in my original post when I referred to the Belgian draft progressing “up the levels” past probably first level. I was actually thinking of the training, rather than showing, aspects. For lack of better terminology, I was thinking of the “levels” of dressage more for training the movements contained in those levels and the skills/training/background needed to execute those movements competently. As for showing, I am not the type of rider who is enamored with showing. Actually, I’m quite the contrary. Showing is fine as a gauge of the progression and quality of training; I don’t believe that showing is the be-all-end-all to dressage. Training is the barometer - without it there is nothing!

I was just curious about how “successful” this breed would be to second level work and beyond.

As a matter of interest only, the website that I found promoting these horses for “dressage” initially made their claim to fame as a breeder of competitive driving horses. I am also aware of another local trainer who wished to cross a Belgian stallion with TB mares in the hopes of producing future USEA Young Horses for eventing. What do you think about those “crosses” for the discipline of eventing? Wouldn’t you run into some of the same training issues? I’m sure that the generous nature of these horses would make them game in spirit for the rigors of cross country, but what about the endurance aspect of completing a CC course. What about being game in the show jumping arena? I believe we are covering the dressage aspect already…

Just some more food for thought.

[Halfbroke]

I believe there was actually an article in COTH a few months back about a belgian cross that made it to GP (I believe the rider was Canadian). I own a belgian thoroughbred cross and my dressage trainer gave it to me for some encouragement, so I don’t actually remember when it came out but I thought it was semi recently…

Since my draftie is 4 I can’t really tell you if I think he has the potential to do well at upper levels or not. I think he has 3 pretty solid gaits and displays athleticism, and besides having an extremly short neck (which I try hard [unsuccessfully] not to obsess over) has very decent confirmation…
I’m actually a little bit torn about this type of thinking… on one hand I think that it is definatly easier to be competitive in dressage with a horse “built” for it, and I’m not going to push him past the level where it is uncomfortable for him because of his confirmation. On the other hand I think that some draft crosses can do quite well, all horses can benefit from dressage so why not?

In my particular experience with just this one belgian cross, he is extremely intelligient, very sensible but has taken longer than other babies I’ve started to get things, specifically lateral work. He is just now starting to understand leg yield at the trot, but I think it has a lot to do with him being too smart. I definatly have to give him a reason to want to obey me…he isn’t beligerant he doesn’t have a lot of try to figure it out at first unless you give him a reason… he is only athletic when he wants to be, so I really feel like that is going to be our biggest challenge… but I wouldn’t say thats because hes a draft… I would think that is just his personality…

[canticle]

Dressage has been around a lot longer than the type of horse which is now preferred for it. We have a difficult time separating the realities of today’s dressage with dressage as a training ideal. It’s one thing to say that a certain type of horse is not as competitive. But I’ve never understood the argument that dressage training is “unfair” to certain breeds. I’m sure they’d ALL rather be out in the pasture!

If a breeder wants to call their draft horses “dressage prospects,” I have no problem with it. No one has a monopoly on the term.

[Ambrey]

@Halfbroke;3347621

I believe there was actually an article in COTH a few months back about a belgian cross that made it to GP (I believe the rider was Canadian). I own a belgian thoroughbred cross and my dressage trainer gave it to me for some encouragement, so I don’t actually remember when it came out but I thought it was semi recently…

Courtenay Fraser and Against All Odds.

http://courtenayfraser.com/Courtenay.htm

My horse is schooling 2nd right now and doing pretty well. If he stalls out it will be for the reasons so many horses do… extensions, collection, etc. He does have an extended trot, he just saves it for when he’s showing off for his girlfriend

Or, it will be because I run out of money for training, lol!

My experience is much different than halfbroke’s. My guy loves the challenge of the laterals and picks them up really quickly- my trainer is constantly amazed. He is very sensitive and responsive, smart, and has a huge heart. No, he’s not the horse that an international rider is going to buy saying “zis is goink to be my ztar!,” but he’s a great horse for the rest of us

[Strictly_Classical]

Sure, a breeder can call their horses anything they want! However, that doesn’t necessarily make it so. I do have a problem with it personally, when it misleads people new to horses and a sport and may not really know any better.

I don’t want this to turn into a derogatory thread. I was simply curious about the full Belgian drafts and, in general, their conformational suitability to dressage second level and beyond.

I am not talking about draft crosses and don’t want to offend anyone. I know there are quite a few draft crosses out there who have been successful at many different disciplines.

I think NC Sue’s honest response about her horse sort of aligned with my initial impressions. Even thought these are BEAUTIFUL animals it is typically hard for them to collect for work much beyond first level. I can also see how their conformation would me it hard to come on to the bit like most of us are used to, to really flex at the poll while maintaing a more open throat latch.

[lewin]

I do not have much experience with Belgians, most of my experience is with percherons, but I have seen a few that could have potential as dressage horses. They were uphill, light, and stunning. I tend to dislike the belgian personality though. The saying is that belgians are moody and percherons are fiery. I prefer the percheron temperament as they let you know right then and there that you did something wrong and then they let it go. BUT there are many who prefer the belgian temperament.

I have never had trouble getting my horse to flex at the throatlatch. (Full percheron) We just encounter the usual inconsistencies of a horse learning dressage. And she tends to try to lean on my hands a bit and curl BTV when she gets tired.

For the record we are schooling 2nd/3rd. I need to have my trainer get on and work on her flying changes for 3rd as she used to be a hunter and her changes are “auto” instead of controlled. The main problem that I encounter throughout is that she tends toward being a bit of a runaway and will happily grab the bit and run through your hand. So I tend to risk losing control during the mediums/extendeds. Lateral work is easy.

[Donella]

A purebred draft and a draft cross are two very different type horses. A belgion draft is not built to be able to cope with the stresses of dressage. They are built for a job that required the OPPOSITE physical effort of dressage…that is, pushing with the hinds and pulling with a heavy front end. In order to do this job, they are built heavy and low on the forehand, hight in the stifle, camped out behind in the legs. The necks are also thick and overdeveloped…ie flexion would be very tough. Belgian drafts are very heavy, VERY drafty draft breed and my guess is that if you were to try and get a horse built like that to actually carry weight on a stifle that was not at all meant to carry, that you would have soundness issues, not to mention an unhappy horse.

[canticle]

If dressage is unfair and dangerous to so many horses, why aren’t there limitations on what kinds of horses can be shown? Why do we continue to allow all of the “unsuitable” horses to be endangered?

[JSwan]

If you post this on the driving forum you’d get a completely different response. Full Drafts do dressage all the time. I’ve seen teams perform exquisite and precise dressage movements - which they do all the time under harness.

So CAN they? Of course they can. They do it all the time, every day For years on end. Soundly.

Do they have “the look” that dressage riders and judges seem to prefer these days? Nope. But that’s not the same thing.

Give the draft breeds some credit. They’re out there doing a hell of a lot better dressage under harness than some “real” dressage horses out there. :winkgrin:

[Ajierene]

Horses that do dressage under harness do a much different dressage than horses undersaddle. They are still pulling, they are still heavy on the forehand, and at the higher levels, they are not doing piaffes or pirouttes while pulling a cart - it is mostly extended and working gaits as well as serpentines and working with reins in one hand. The horses still need to be balanced and supple, but the upper level dressage under saddle movements are not done. These are the movements that other posters were talking about injuring the horse.

It would help a Belgian draft with his under saddle work to learn to become more light on the forehand and he could do lower level dressage, but at the same time, he was not built for that and his stifles and hind end may not be strong enough to propel him like that without getting arthritis earlier or other ailments.

[canticle]

Umm driven dressage is still dressage. Have you ever been to a CDE? Those horses are not on their forehands. If anything, it is better work than what you see under saddle.

I agree with J Swan in that people seem to have an issue with the LOOK. Yes, that will affect scoring. But all this talk of dressage being cruel to draft horses is just silly. If anything, their conformation makes dressage work that much more vital.

[JSwan]

Bullshit.

Dressage is dressage. It’s not “different”. Any horse can do it, it benefits any horse, and it’s found in all disciplines; if by different names.

Horses may not be required to execute certain upper level movements as part of their job -but the preparatory movements aka lower level movements are the ones performed more frequently and for greater duration. The lower levels are preparatory in nature; each movement is a specific exercise designed to result in a horse that is balanced, supple, and strong enough to execute the upper level movements - and the epitome of those movements is what is seen at the SRS. Piaffe may be hard on a draft’s stifles - but it’s not the actual execution of piaffe that is stressful on the joint- it’s the years of work at the preparatory movements that produces the greatest wear and tear. The horse does not execute piaffe for 1 hour a day; but he may execute all the preparatory movements as part of his daily work.

And that work is the daily routine for many drafts, draft crosses, QH’s, Arabs, etc. And they’re all capable of being excellent dressage horses; but what they lack is the popularity, the size, the suspension and the brilliance.
But the work itself - the accuracy and execution of the movements, can be correct.

Too often the word “can’t” is applied to horses when what the person really means is, “they’re not pretty enough, or not popular enough, or they don’t score well”.

And not all draft horses are 2000lb heavy behemoths. It’s silly to dismiss an entire group of breeds when there is a great deal of variety within the class and each breed. The standard differs for each breed - and there are some that breed for a lighter, more versatile draft horse. (not draft crosses)

With breeds out there that are proven to be suited to the upper levels of dressage - I don’t know why a person would even bother trying it with a draft. But that’s a far cry from asserting that no draft horse can or should perform at the upper levels. Though even he could- the horse may not be competitive at the upper levels - so again - why bother?

[Ajierene]

I think it needs to be defined what each poster means by ‘good for dressage’. Many posters are saying lower level dressage is fine, but not upper. The ones that are disagreeing seem to be saying the same thing - dressage is great for drafts, but they are not competitive at the upper levels. Which is what I thought I articulated early, but perhaps I was not clear enough.

As far as driving horses and dressage go - yes I have seen them and no, they did not look the same. They definitely looked more supple and nicer than your average driving horse, but still more on the forehand and not as much action as say an upper level dressage horse. I am saying that upper level dressage driving horses are equivalent to dressage horses under saddle at a few levels below them. Say fourth level driving dressage horse is equal to second level dressage horse under saddle. That is what I saw.

I love driving horses and thoroughly enjoyed the summer I spent driving mules for a nice, rich lady and may get into competitive driving when I am older and have the spare money for an even more expensive hobby than riding under saddle (think - need to buy a good carriage, harness, etc.)

[Ambrey]

@Ajierene;3348216

I think it needs to be defined what each poster means by ‘good for dressage’. Many posters are saying lower level dressage is fine, but not upper. The ones that are disagreeing seem to be saying the same thing - dressage is great for drafts, but they are not competitive at the upper levels. Which is what I thought I articulated early, but perhaps I was not clear enough.

Some of us are saying that SOME drafts can be successful at upper levels, depending on how you define upper levels and how you define successful ;).

There was a purebred percheron who competed at GP and did well. One farm has based a really successful draftx breeding program off of him (he’s passed on now). http://www.forresthillfarm.com/page13.html

But it’s based on the variation within the breed. Belgians can be light or they can be very, very heavy (brabant). Draft crosses can be well put together and athletic or they can be a mishmash of parts that look like they don’t fit together.

WBs don’t have the same level of variation, but neither do really successful breeding programs.

[Donella]

Sorry, my mom competes in CDE’s with her Belgian x QH mare. There IS a difference! They are not required to do collected movements, it is a basic pattern they are doing. Collection is not part of the picture folks!!. There are no shoulder in’s, pirouettes, tempi changes ect. The OP asked if the horse could hold up past second (ie where collection becomes important). No, they probably couldn’t. And no, it’s not a conspiracy where everyone is out to get people with draft horses:eek:. Stop being morons people…dressage in the upper levels is STRESSFULL on the horse! Horses run around carrying 60 percent of their weight naturally on their forhand. Drafts probably carry 75 percent. In dressage we want them to carry more on the HIND end. This is STRESSFUL AND DEMANDING. Can all horses be competative jumpers? NO. Why? Because they can’t physically do it. It has nothing to do with conspiracys and predjudices. It has everything to do with form to function.

Look around you. Look at any equine sport. Every single one has a breed that seriously dominates because it was bred with the conformation in mind that allows it to perform that task with ease. Arabians have fine skin, large nostrils, less vertebrea, deep heartgirths ect ect that allow them to win endurance awards. Tbs are built low to the ground in front, with long hind legs, deep heart girths ect that give them speed like no other breed. Draft horses are built heavy on the forehand with massive shoulders and necks and legs camped out behind to PULL heavy loads and they do this BETTER than any other type of horse. None of this has anything to do with breed predjudices. The modern wb horse (and some baroque breeds) is built with the task of “sitting” in mind (and YES, they are bred for this, since the 1940’s with extreme selection!). The horse has to “sit/carry” behind to get over a 6 foot oxer or to get around in a canter pirouette. The conformation reflects this.

I ride a friesian in dressage. She is built with many of the draft horse issues (even though they arent a draft breed, they have been bred recently to PULL) and believe me, she can pull. Sitting is hard for her. Her stifles are weak, her hinds are bit camped out (every single friesian I have ever seen has these issues to some degree, even though many seemingly cannot see this of course). She is good at throwing her weight into that forhand. Canter is hard enough (as it is with all drafts because it requires that the weight be rocked back and carried on the stifle!). She is still better than the average friesian, but beleive me, form DOES affect function. She does awesome at first level stuff…shes has beautiful movement and even now that I have taught her that she can canter, she gets 8’s for it. HOWEVER, collection will be hard, the hind limbs are not built for repeated stresses …which carrying IS.
Guess what guys…and im sorry to rain on the parade, but it really isn’t just a breed bias thing where everyone is picking on you because you don’t have an expensive wb. Get a grip. Form to function…not THAT difficult to grasp (and if it is, then do some research, read up on it…Dr Hilary Clayton, Dr Michal Holmstrom have done lots of work on equine biomechanics ect).

[Ajierene]

I understand what you are saying and that is what irritates me about some breeds or breeding programs.

Breed the Belgian for it’s purpose - pulling. If you breed it for something else you are getting away from the true purpose of the breed and the original breed standard.

It is why 16HH jumping quarter horses irritate me - ones that look like thoroughbreds. That is not the breed standard, dag nabbit! Get a thoroughbred if that’s what you want! but some people want their breed and want it all. They have all these different breeding programs then point out how versatile their breed is. Well, of course, BUT can one horse do it all? Yes, some breeds are more versatile than others and yes, a quarter horse can drive one day, then rein the next - but what about that jumping one? Most likely not and then you are getting away from the breed standard.

So, a Belgian as it was meant to be, will not do well in upper level dressage - for the most part.

I am also one of those people that think that solid horses out of paint parents should not be able to be registered - to me, they are just quarter horses, and part of the breed standard is the paint color.

I am one of those people that appreciates each breed for what it can do, but feel that people are crossing so much and crossing disciplines so much that breeds are going to be unimportant soon and horses will just be jacks of all trades, masters of none.

EDIT: Thank you Donella for illustrating the points I was trying to make also. It is not breed prejudice, it is breed standard and what the breed was built for.