I was not even going to respond to this, but…
If you go back and look at what I have wrote over and over and over…
I said any horse that is conformationally correct to do the job and is happy doing the job is the goal.
An unhappy horse creates tension, irregular gaits and other issues. And if Im wasting my time, then so be it with my WB’s. You foget they are the majority of the top standing everywhere, so someone is doing something right.
OK, but since when does a thread get to page…what are we on, 12? 13? and stay on the original subject?
In fact, post 3 had already veered off the subject of belgians and made it about drafts in general, so that’s where it went. And it wasn’t my fault
YOU were the one trying to limit the discussion to your two questions.
See, you sound so nice, and then you have to go and throw in comments like this. Why?
Belittling draft lovers doesn’t make anyone look better :no:
No, I was trying to convince noDQ that she was preaching to the choir when she was trying to convince us all that WBs are the best horses for dressage, that’s all.
Y’all can discuss the price of tea in china, for all I care 
LOL, point taken.
But breed standards are by definition fluid. Draft horses have had to change over the years to meet demand, and they have. Even for harness work, they have gotten lighter because most harness work is for sport or show rather than heavy work.
And are you using “draft” when you mean “Belgian” here? Or do you mean “draft horses in general?” And I’m assuming you are basing your opinions on British breed standards (understandably).
Think of it like this. Drafts are heavy weight body builders trying to do ballet. Ballet (dressage) should be soft supple and full of harmony. Elegant, elastic.
Drafts are heavy footed with mostly straight shoudlers and open hip angles (made to pull). Look at some of the conformation winners with the Dressage Breed winners and then look up some draft horses. The breed type is not compareable.
Now again, I have to say this before someone goes off the deep end. ANY hores can do dressage, its just how WELL they can and how EASY it comes to them.
I am nice Ambery. Its a long going joke that “LaNet has two friends, and that is all she needs” and “Im not here to make any more friends, I have two!”…
Its just an inside joke. Look at my joining date, Ive been here for ages…
Nope, not all.
Patty has been breeding a long time too. I know her well enough from yrs on the BB’s that she would even agree with you that some of the best thought out breeding has turned into well… less than favorable.
I think your taking what she is saying WAY out of context. She, like I am saying that it depends on the horse in general.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3357824]
OK, what are some of the basic conformation differences between driving and riding horses? I am not familiar with driving horses so I don’t know, can someone elaborate please? [/QUOTE]
It very much depends what sort of driving you mean.
If you mean the likes of private driving or concours d’elegance as its called here then its not much different to a good sports riding horse.
In general though you’d be looking for a breed that has a flashy, showy higher knee action with good forward movement at trot. You’ll find that most purpose bred light harness horses have tremendous front action and elevated paces and a fantastic and efficient trot with high knee action and its that which tends to mark a good carriage horse.
The discipline I’ve been entrenched in is Horse Driving Trials - known as CDE (Combined Driving Event) over there. In effect that’s the driven equivalent of Ridden Horse Trials or eventing and for that you’re looking for a good all round sports horse type.
Lippezzaners, Hanovarian, Dutch Warmbloods, Trakehner, Cleveland Bay, Gelderlanders, Holsteiner, Russian Trotters all immediately spring to mind as being consistently doing well fei Horse Driving Trials.
Cleveland Bay - one of the oldest breeds in Britain and ideally suited to all types of carriage work. Pure Clevelands of the old type can be rather large but for competitive driving they’ve been successfully crossed with lighter horses to produce something more successful. Prince Philip competed for many years with Cleveland cross Oldenburgs. They looked just like Clevelands except they were slightly lighter in the legs and consequently have better paces for dressage and also for speed work through hazards.
Hanovarian - extremely successful - a German carriage horse similar in stamp to the Cleveland bay. Fantastic for dressage work - very showy and also very agile sports horses.
Lippizaner - again VERY successful. Gyorgy Bardos on the world championships with a team of them in 1978 and 1980. Intelligent and respond well to training and with showy action combined with speed across country.
Hungarian Warmbloods - Lean leggy animals whose main attribute is the ability to cover the ground VERY quickly. Many of the strains have Lippizaner blood in them and that gives them style.
Trakehaner - VERY successful at international competition. VERY good looking and always well bred (their breeding is carefully controlled by the state).
Oldenburg - popularised in the UK as a successful HDT horse and competed fei by many but initially by Sir John Miller
Dutch Warmblood - smart and a little lighter than the gelderlanders or Friesians. Frequently been driven by world champions. In my competition days by Tjerd Velstra (twice w/c) and by Ijsbrand Chardon.
Friesians - high knee action and with imposing presence and impressive action. Again several times driven by World Champions.
Welsh Ponies - By far the most popular and successful breed of competition driving pony and horse. The A’s and B’s are stylish in appearance and move like miniature horses (arab influence in the breed). So they’re impressive in the dressage arena and furthermore are very fast through the hazards. But their size can limit their use to lightweight drivers unless they’re in pairs or teams.
The D’s (cobs) - often coming in best for HDT at around 15 to 15.3 mark. They’re smart and sturdy and strong and have extravagant action. The eye catching movement is an advantage in dressage and their sturdiness carries them well through the rigorous marathon section. George Bowman competes with Welsh Cobs and became national champion with them.
Dartmoors - one of the smallest British natives and usually about 12 hands. Fantastic driving ponies, but due to their size they’ve only been successful and at high level in competition when in pairs or teams.
Exmoor - a good strong pony that’s had considerable success in driving. Again agile and quick and with a showy eager action that means he’ll be a solid all rounder performer
Fells - by far the most consistently successful driving pony in competition. A sturdy pony bred for pack and draft work in northern England has the strength and stamina necessary for gruelling cross country. Though basically not a natural dressage pony, if training is started early enough they’re willing and will master the different movements required to perform a perfectly respectable test.
Belgian Drafts are not for the likes of Horse Driving Trials at all. They’re a heavy cold blood for farm work. Slow and cumbersome.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3357868]
LOL, point taken.
But breed standards are by definition fluid. [/QUOTE] Really? I’d say that’s most definitely not the case. Or rather it shouldn’t be. Breed specialists spend their lives trying to breed horses true to type. To do anything else seems somewhat pointless and IMO rather absurd.
Draft horses have had to change over the years to meet demand, and they have.
Changes that have occurred have been VERY gradual and subtle unless of course you’re talking about those folks that set to breed a silk purse from a sow’s ear.
It always seems stark staring bonkers to me to breed away from type and breed standard with pure breds.
Even for harness work, they have gotten lighter because most harness work is for sport or show rather than heavy work.
You’re wrong. The horses used for sport and showing are not the heavy agricultural cold bloods.
They’re the breeds that always were used for sport and leisure.
And I’m assuming you are basing your opinions on British breed standards (understandably).
No not at all. When I competed, I competed internationally and I still have international customers and do driving clinics and sell driving horses overseas.
OK, so why do you want to make us feel bad? Maybe we don’t have ANY friends and need some?
I am thinking that it might be much different here than in England. But, seriously, look at the difference between European warmbloods “now and then.”
Changes that have occurred have been VERY gradual and subtle unless of course you’re talking about those folks that set to breed a silk purse from a sow’s ear.
Not really, look at the Quarter Horse? It was so quick and drastic that they had to make a separate registry for the “foundation” breeds. Same for Appaloosa. In fact, from what I’ve read the draft breeds have had to be the most adaptable.
It always seems stark staring bonkers to me to breed away from type and breed standard with pure breds.
Guessing it is that US/British split there again. It is a national pasttime here
You’re wrong. The horses used for sport and showing are not the heavy agricultural cold bloods.
I meant draft specific sport- draft shows and breed shows.
Oh stop! Not trying to make you feel bad. Gosh, Im a NOBODY in a big world, my opinion is not the end all. Take it easy.
Thomas, you have broke my cold black heart. In your breeds above you left out Belgian Warmbloods. 
LOL, turn your sarcasm meter back on I actually have like 6 friends, so I win!
[QUOTE=STF;3357871]
Think of it like this. Drafts are heavy weight body builders trying to do ballet. Ballet (dressage) should be soft supple and full of harmony. Elegant, elastic.
Drafts are heavy footed with mostly straight shoudlers and open hip angles (made to pull). Look at some of the conformation winners with the Dressage Breed winners and then look up some draft horses. The breed type is not compareable.
Now again, I have to say this before someone goes off the deep end. ANY hores can do dressage, its just how WELL they can and how EASY it comes to them.[/QUOTE]
Thanks LaNet. I wasn’t trying to say that dressage horses and draft horses are similar in conformation. I have a half Hanoverian so I’m somewhat familiar with warmbloods. Yes, they do find many of the fancy dressage moves easier than other type horses.
ANY hores can do dressage
Your profession is irrelevant to the topic.
Thank you Thomas for your reply. Very informative.
I don’t think straight shoulders are desirable in the draft world, are they? They might be common, but I don’t think they are desirable.
STF, can you explain what you mean by an open hip angle?
Hang on, there use to be a super website for this info someone put together. Let me see if I can still find it. Then I dont have to type for ever.
