:rolleyes:
And now I went and explained myself as if you were really interested in understanding instead of belittling. What a waste of finger power THAT was.
But if we try to take them to 4th, then we’re harming them?
[QUOTE=STF;3357066]
I said before, that many draft and draft crosses would make awesome horses for low level AA’s wanting to go out, drink a beer and just have some fun, but for someone wanting to go as far as possible, I do not recommend that choice. Its a long, hard and expensive road, so why not start with a horse that CAN offer the simple dynamics that will make a trainers and riders life easier.[/QUOTE]
You mean like an Iberian breed? Aren’t those the only “true” dressage horses if you are interested in the highest levels?
Apparently you have chosen to “waste your time” with WBs, and that is fine because you are happy. Ultimately you will be limited by this choice, but no one is judging you for that. It just kills you to extend the same courtesy to others though, doesn’t it?
And then there are people like slc2 who think dressage is cruel and unfair… I don’t even want to know what kind of riding she is doing. :no:
I can’t imagine it’s even worth the bad karma. Why bother reading someone’s posts if you’ve made up your mind beforehand what they are saying? Might as well just hit that “ignore” button and respond based on what the grapevine says they probably meant.
[QUOTE=NoDQhere;3357131]
OK, so tell us. And then tell us what kind of draft momma was. Better yet, ya got pictures???[/QUOTE]
I didn’t want to go back and find the post where you replied to me so I clicked this one to quote, I just wanted to let you know that I know you’re not the one who said my horse was untalented. My comment to you was regarding using pictures not intended for conformation critiques to base the ability or potential talent of a horse and using what read as condscesion to someone else, something along the lines of “Ambery when get more experience, deary”. I also wasn’t trying to imply that your stallions were anything less than talented. I just wanted to point out that you have a few photos on your site that do not show them to advantage since photogenics is something that you use to base value on. (I like your older stallion, personally. :))
And, many of the other comments in that post weren’t directed to you at all, but to other posters. I just got tired of all of the comments about dressage was unfair for drafts so I just replied, but the comments were to multiple other people.
[QUOTE=canticle;3357215]
You mean like an Iberian breed? Aren’t those the only “true” dressage horses if you are interested in the highest levels?
Apparently you have chosen to “waste your time” with WBs, and that is fine because you are happy. Ultimately you will be limited by this choice, but no one is judging you for that. It just kills you to extend the same courtesy to others though, doesn’t it?
And then there are people like slc2 who think dressage is cruel and unfair… I don’t even want to know what kind of riding she is doing. :no:[/QUOTE]
I always get a kick out of the claim that the Iberians are the “true” dressage horses. Allrightythen. The FACT is that the European Warmblood horses DOMINATE Dressage. (Show Jumping as well) They have for years and will continue to do so. Why? Because they are bred and built for sport and are VERY GOOD at it :lol: Just like Quarter Horses will ALWAYS dominate Barrel Racing.
Us Warmblood people really don’t care what you choose to ride. But we are never going to agree that Drafts are just as capable to get to the upper levels. Its no more likely to happen than me turning into a prima ballerina because I put on a tue-tue :eek:
We’ve removed a cluster of posts a couple of pages back that were heavy on personal commentary/snark and light on content related to the topic.
You’re all obviously welcome to disagree and point out perceived flaws in others’ reasoning/comments but please “play nice.” 
Thanks,
Mod 1
And who said they were? :rolleyes:
Let us remove that part of the argument and enter as fact that “Warmbloods are the Gold Standard” and argue from there? Because all this snark based on things nobody is even implying is getting us away from the real question.
Which is.
Can you do dressage on a draft? Can one get to upper levels?
I think we’ve demonstrated the affirmative on both fairly well. Don’t you?
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3357199]
US horse registries such as the American Spotted Horse association and the American Half Quarter Horse association. The registries that make up 99% of the “registered” horses in the US.
I have the UTMOST respect for the American arms of the euro WB registries. They are a completely different paradigm than the “horse registry” that the US is used to. I think AWS is something in the middle, offering something to the American public that isn’t ready for what Europe has been doing for years, but a little more performance oriented than the way horses have been registered in the past.
Twas my only point, I wasn’t trying to put them into competition with the WB registries based on the european model.[/QUOTE]
Since we are on a Dressage forum, I think we thought you were refering to “sport horse” registries. Then it occured to me that you were really refering to american registries, like AQHA, Jockey Club, APHA, ApHC and so on…And yes, you are right, they require no inspection, just photos and DNA.
But I think you better rethink this…
I doubt 99% of horses are registered in these obscure, unheard of registries. If that were the case, “The big guns” in the US, AQHA, Jockey Club, APHA, ApHC, AHA would be worried
Because all this snark based on things nobody is even implying is getting us away from the real question.
Which is.
Can you do dressage on a draft? Can one get to upper levels?
Actually, the OP’s question was this:
Just curious regarding opinions of others on the use of Belgian drafts (NOT Belgian warmbloods) for dressage.
I am a firm believer that basic dressage training is good for all breeds of riding horses, no matter the breed. However, I am curious about the suitability of this breed with regards of progressing up the levels of dressage, especially at second level and higher
It looks like people were asked to give their opinions on this and that is what they did.
I meant that 99% of horses are registered in registries that are based on bloodlines rather than inspections.
The registries I named were just on the front page of the google search I mentioned, LOL!
I can’t even count the number of times I’ve said that I am a huge fan of WBs. I don’t know how many times I need to say it before people will stop feeling like they need to defend their horses or registries when discussing them with me. Why is it not possible that I love drafts and WBs both?
I honestly can’t comprehend why WB breeders feel the need to defend their horses when someone brings up drafts as dressage horses. If, as you’ve said a million times, the proof is in the pudding you should be secure and let people experiment and enjoy.
None of us feel that our drafts should be scoring as well as the top WBs or else you’re all haters. None of us think that drafts should be dominating the olympics, but the WB conspiracy is keeping us out. Trust me, you’re all safe. We love your horses. We will admire the WBs in the olympics this year for the athletes they are. We have friends and trainers who ride WBs and we appreciate their benefits (and love them and give them carrots too).
Can’t you give us the same courtesy? Try to appreciate the benefits of a draft, see what we see in them? Understand why we’re having such a blast bringing them up the levels? Let us succeed without trying to figure out who screwed up badly enough to let us think our horses are decent dressage horses? Just open your mind and imagine that it could happen?
[QUOTE=J Swan;3347862]
If you post this on the driving forum you’d get a completely different response. [/QUOTE]
I’m not convinced you will do.
I’ve posted before to say that in the UK when we say a draft horse we merely mean any horse that will go in harness and then they’re further classified as Light Harness Horse or Heavy Harness Horse. In the former category are virtually all the breeds that are considered to be the traditional ridden dressage horses.
In the latter are the likes of Belgian Drafts
Give the draft breeds some credit. They’re out there doing a hell of a lot better dressage under harness than some “real” dressage horses out there. :winkgrin:
Its the light harness horse breeds that are doing proper driven dressage are most often also doing ridden dressage and doing it at higher levels.
However they’re not the heavy cold blood agricultural horses at all.
Rather, they’re the likes of Dutch Warmblood, Trakehner, Oldenburgs, Welsh D’s, Irish Draft, Cleveland Bay, Friesian. Those breeds never were bred for heavy agricultural transport. Rather they’re original purpose was for such as a gentleman’s sports carriage pleasure horse or a coaching horse.
Full Drafts do dressage all the time. I’ve seen teams perform exquisite and precise dressage movements - which they do all the time under harness.
Really??? You don’t get them in Europe at all.
I’m personally not convinced at all that a true to type Belgian Draft or Percheron or the likes is going to go far in ridden dressage. They just aren’t built for it. Quite simply they’re built for size and substance and strength and whilst they’re not to be considered sluggish, they’re strong and muscular and with short cannon bones and whilst they may well be straight free movers if they’re nicely conformed, and take longer, less choppy strides than a lot of heavy horses, they’re never going to have the same paces and elgance and athleticism of the more traditional breeds.
OK, but since when does a thread get to page…what are we on, 12? 13? and stay on the original subject?
In fact, post 3 had already veered off the subject of belgians and made it about drafts in general, so that’s where it went. And it wasn’t my fault
Every horse can benefit from dressage training, and any sound horse can do well in the lower levels. But MOST full drafts, stock breeds and other types not known for light forehands or hind ends built for collection are just not going to be competitive at the upper levels, and I personally dont think its fair to try to make them do something that is just not for them. Not every horse is suitable for everything, especially when talking ULs, and accepting that is not discrimination. Though I personally think drafts and drafts crosses are great all arounders, but I dont buy into the “they are the ultimate sport horse, everyone who disagrees is just a snob” theory.
One of the issues that has been pointed out many times is that in the US, most draft breeds have a huge variation, even within “show stock,” or horses that are bred to show on the breed circuits. So, “true to type” is kind of misleading, because “type” is not as clear-cut as some are saying.
eta: It should be noted that European Belgians and American Belgians are quite different as well.
OK, what are some of the basic conformation differences between driving and riding horses? I am not familiar with driving horses so I don’t know, can someone elaborate please? Between driving with speed and pulling heavy loads at slower speeds? Because a lot of the combined driving horses are also trained under saddle and are very talented at dressage. (And yes I know, they don’t resemble drafts in the slightest. :lol:)
Overall yes.
I have a center of training idea here of - a horse has to be happy… once the horse is not happy then you have to find something else for them. If I keep asking a horse to do something is cant, they get unhappy. Im not talking about pushing a horse slightly beyond its “zone” but Im taking of asking a horse to do something that is so hard for them it burns them out.
Now… some people may be happy to go out and just play in the ring. Get to collecetive levels and get 50’s, but most I know, want better scores. But if a horses hip is open to the point it cant step under and its hind leg is so slow it cant really help its front end elevate, then why ruin the “happy spot”…
Im about the HORSE, I really dont care much about people in general. :lol:
Ok, that makes sense. Thank you for claifying. I only really work with the WB stuff, so Im totally LOST to the other.
:winkgrin:
Im sorry…
I wrote that after I thought you were refering to WB registries, since that was the topic we were on before.
No, not if its easy for them and they are not hurting or stressing joint, muslces and tendons to do so.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3357822]
One of the issues that has been pointed out many times is that in the US, most draft breeds have a huge variation, even within “show stock,” or horses that are bred to show on the breed circuits. So, “true to type” is kind of misleading, because “type” is not as clear-cut as some are saying.
eta: It should be noted that European Belgians and American Belgians are quite different as well. [/QUOTE]
No matter what breed you have there’ll be good ones that conform to the breed standard and then there’ll be… well other types.
That isn’t peculiar to Agricultural horses only and indeed you can look at any and every breed starting with the shetland pony, and working your way up to the Shire and make that comment.
I was however sticking to the topic which asked about Belgian Drafts doing dressage.
When thinking of a Belgian draft I’m not going to be thinking of a horse that’s looking like a Dutch Warmblood.
Had the OP said “Do you think a Belgian Draft that isn’t true to standard and looks more like a dressage type horse, could dressage?” then I’d have answered differently
