OK, tonight my husband ate the last ice cream drumstick, and I’m pretty sure you had something to do with it!
I wasn’t mad before, but now…:mad::mad:
ummmmmm would thy put a drafty on a race course and run with the athelete’s
the tb’s ?
would thy put the drafty in same class – i rest my case
different sernerio principal the same
[QUOTE=Strictly Classical;3347610]
I am also aware of another local trainer who wished to cross a Belgian stallion with TB mares in the hopes of producing future USEA Young Horses for eventing. What do you think about those “crosses” for the discipline of eventing? Wouldn’t you run into some of the same training issues? I’m sure that the generous nature of these horses would make them game in spirit for the rigors of cross country, but what about the endurance aspect of completing a CC course. [/QUOTE]
I think they are even less suitable to eventing. Draft crosses make very good low level horses, as in under Training level. They are pretty game and have good attitudes, which is all you need for low levels. Above that, they do not have the stamina, and I doubt they would even fit through some of the skinny jumps! It wont be the dressage that stops them in eventing, it will most definitely be the endurance and speed of cross country.
If you read Forrest Hill’s breeding page, it’s all about which horses you choose when doing the cross. Draft cross isn’t a breed- a light belgian (I’m assured they exist 
bred to a TB is going to produce something entirely different than a heavy belgian bred to… well, anything.
SC, can you PM me the links to these farms? I’m just curious 
I haven’t been able to find any websites for successful belgian sporthorse breeding programs, it really doesn’t appear to be something anyone is doing. How do the horses on these sites look? Maybe Belgian just doesn’t cross well? (I think there are breeds like that. For example, I’ve never seen a Haflinger cross that I particularly liked, while there are tons of Welsh crosses out there that are neat… one of which I own!).
Ambrey - you have a PM…
Hey Ambrey
I have a Belgium/TB gelding- just a great guy. Handsome color, dark dappled buckskin with black mane and tail. Belgium mom, TB dad.
Oh good lord - I just went to the Forrest Hills website. I looked at the stallions - espec. Cottonwood Flame. Conformationally, these horses at FH are not even close to the type of heavy horse I’m talking about. Picture hitch horses - pure driving horses - that is the type of Belgian I had in mind when I started this thread.
CW Flame is a lovely horse; he looks stout but he also looks more like a riding horse, albeit a well-endowed riding horse. There are also photos of horses on the FH website that appear to be crosses; still this is NOT they conformational type I had in mind when starting this thread. I wish I felt comfortable publicly posting the link to the farm I’m speaking of…
Why people seem to have the desire to take a breed that was specifically developed for one purpose and then to attempt to transmogrify it for another discipline is a continuing mystery to me.
Examples would be the turning of the Arab and the Morgan into a pseudo-Saddlebred. Both were smallish generalist breeds. You want action? Get thee to a Saddlebred breeder! (of course, IMHO, some of the footflapping in dressage seems headed that way lately, but what do I know?)
Mind you, this is different from the situation where one has, for example an Arab (or a draft) and says, “Hey! I’d like to try combined training with my Arab! Can I do that?”
Different question from " I’d like to get seriously involved in combined training! Which horse breed(s) are best suited to eventing?"
Yes, there are individuals in any breed who excel in surprising ways for their breed, but these are the exceptions.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3362425]
If you read Forrest Hill’s breeding page, it’s all about which horses you choose when doing the cross. [/QUOTE]
That pretty much sums up how any good breeder goes about it, whether you’re producing DraftX’s or purebred anything.
Strictly Classical …
Have you been riding my horse again? Wait … mine is a chestnut gelding. And he’s a hoot – opinionated, sensitive, smart and immediately lets me know when I’m doing something right. Because otherwise he won’t do it at all. :lol:
And if your mare has McCoy and Al-Marah breeding, I bet there’s a dash of Crabbet in there, too. Nice horse.
enjoytheride …
Good luck at your hunter show. We scored a magnificent 54 in our last dressage foray. And I know it was breed prejudice, not because he was bug-eyed at everything and I had to keep bending him to prevent him from jumping out from under me or my nerves because I wasn’t sure bending him was gonna do the trick and I was destined for the ground or because we went off course or because I’d never ridden the test in a large arena and my geometry was off at times, to put it kindly. Noooooo, sir. That judge just hated Arabs.
But we did manage to stay in the arena. :yes: Considering the 45 mph wind and 45-degree temp, that should have been worth 10 points right there.
[QUOTE=Bobthehorse;3362400]
I think they are even less suitable to eventing. Draft crosses make very good low level horses, as in under Training level. They are pretty game and have good attitudes, which is all you need for low levels. Above that, they do not have the stamina, and I doubt they would even fit through some of the skinny jumps! It wont be the dressage that stops them in eventing, it will most definitely be the endurance and speed of cross country.[/QUOTE]
I agree with Bob, and Thomas touched on this too. A TB/ draft cross is risky, because it’s not unusual to end up with something like TB stifles on a draft body – ie, a horse that is fundamentally unsound. I can’t imagine taking a draft cross crosscountry, unless your idea of a fun outing is having your horse catch a knee and flip over. I’ve seen ONE TB/ draft cross that I liked.
[QUOTE=workinggirl;3362771]
I have a Belgium/TB gelding- just a great guy. Handsome color, dark dappled buckskin with black mane and tail. Belgium mom, TB dad.[/QUOTE]
*Belgian
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3362814]
I agree with Bob, and Thomas touched on this too. A TB/ draft cross is risky, because it’s not unusual to end up with something like TB stifles on a draft body – ie, a horse that is fundamentally unsound. I can’t imagine taking a draft cross crosscountry, unless your idea of a fun outing is having your horse catch a knee and flip over. I’ve seen ONE TB/ draft cross that I liked.[/QUOTE]
The breeding is risky, I absolutely agree. I have seen a lot of great big ole draft bodies on TB stifles, tiny hocks and egg-shell, petite feet but, but, but…in buying a cross, you should be able to rule out whether the cross has any of these issues by a conformation examination, moving the horse to look at gait and a PPE by a qualified vet. A lot of draft crosses are built very, very soundly. But they are outbred, so it can be a crap shoot, for those breeding such animals. Anyone who says it isn’t and is a breeder, is hiding babies in the back pasture because breeding is always a crap shoot and occassionally (maybe often), poorly or average conformed animals can come from the best of the best.
That said, a draft is not a draft is not a draft…Too often people take their (unsound) TB mare and breed her to the great big old monster down the street (you know, the plow horse). The F1 generation from such a cross is more often than not less useful as a riding horse than a modern draft (or at least a modern US Percheron). The big issues with the drafts built for plow/pulling is that they have short necks, big bellies (really hard to get them to bend), short cannon bones, etc. If one starts with a show type (lighter, thin boned, long-neck, longer cannon bones, no belly) stallion and breeds to a light horse mare with complimentary conformation, the results are going to be more satisfactory. The truth is that many (if not most) of the draft crosses that I see are way more drafty than my full drafts and many do have leg/foot issues!
Along the lines of Belgians -going back to the original post. Even the modern Belgians just have more bone, more foot, more belly, shorter cannon bones, less neck, less air under the legs and their gaits tend to be less pure than Percherons or even some of the UK breeds. They are less nimble. And, honestly (ducking for cover), the aren’t quite as gifted in working with humans in processing complex tasks (like dressage).
But, it is all in the individual. We have some Percherons that we wouldn’t hardly put a saddle on, unless it was for a big ole stomping saddle seat class. Others, are much more fun to ride (including dressage) than drive. But, I totally agree that high school levels are harder to attain. That said, if you have ever seen a totally fit, Perch perform at the higher levels, it is one of the more impressive displays around.
But to keep this positive: If one has their heart set on a Belgian, I say go for it but CHOOSE wisely. A copy of the Draft Horse Journal (even a used one off of e-bay) is going to yield a lot of reputatable breeders. Go and visit as many farms as you can and look at the different lines, the Ch sires and what is out there. Also, go to horse shows/youtube and educate yourself on what you want to see when a horse moves out or take a judging class or buy some DVDS and study them. If you go to draftsforsale.com and buy the $1500. gelding that is under 30 miles from your house without educating yourself first on what you want in a dressage horse, ANY DRESSAGE HORSE, you will be fighting a lot of gait/conformation issues that you might never had to deal with if you shopped wisely.
Breeding horses of such two different body types as TBs and drafts isn’t just your typical outcross and is more fraught with risk than a lot of other crosses. If someone wants an event horse with substance I’d suggest a Irish Draught or a ID cross.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3362989]
Breeding horses of such two different body types as TBs and drafts isn’t just your typical outcross and is more fraught with risk than a lot of other crosses. If someone wants an event horse with substance I’d suggest a Irish Draught or a ID cross.[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen plenty of Irish Draughts that are heavier than modern perchs or shires. With ANY breeding you should breed type to type or you will have a greater risk of getting a “weird” combination.
[QUOTE=Phyxius;3363002]
I’ve seen plenty of Irish Draughts that are heavier than modern perchs or shires. With ANY breeding you should breed type to type or you will have a greater risk of getting a “weird” combination.[/QUOTE]
Gee I don’t know, the Irish have had a lot of success with that cross… :lol:
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3363018]
Gee I don’t know, the Irish have had a lot of success with that cross… :lol:[/QUOTE]
You misunderstood. A big problem in this thread has been blanket statments. RIDs crossed with TBs are just fine. But, be sure to breed to type. Don’t take a heavy RID and cross it with a very fine boned, petite TB. Just as Ceilo Azure was saying taking a light TB mare and crossing it with the humongo plow horse down the road will not give you a nice cross.
I overheard a discussion recently between some of our better-known (and indeed, better) local breeders, and the comment was made that one of the reasons the ISH was a successful draft cross was that the Irish put TB stallions onto their ID mares, and not the other way around.
I really don’t know enough about breeding, or this breed, to comment, but would be interested in hearing from anyone who does. At the outset it makes sense, because you get a bigger foal, but with the elegance of the TB.
I have been a bit ambivalent about the ISH that I’ve seen on our local circuit. There are one or two that are really nice, but a lot of them are just not athletic enough to be classed as “sports horses” really and the movement, on the whole, has been “drafty”.
To me it does not make sense. The size of the foal at birth is determined by the mare, but the genetic make up of the horse is determined by both parents. Just as with humans if an asian woman and a caucasian man had a baby it would be no more asian or caucasian than if a caucasian woman had a baby with an asian man.
I often hear some people say that crossing TB mares with draft stallions results in quieter, more “sensible” foals than breeding draft mares to TB stallions. But, then I also hear some people try to say that breeding a draft mare to a TB stallions give you a lighter foal than TB mare to a draft stallion.
While it is certainly true that you’ll have a lighter FOAL from a TB mare the horse it will grow into will not be affected by which was the sire and which was the dam.
ETA : And, Kaeleer just to be safe rarely will you find a RID or ISH owner who would consider their draught or draught cross to be a “draft” like the heavy drafts that most think of when they hear the word “draught” (which is pronounced the same as draft). It’s kinda like fox hunters have a fit if you call their hounds a “dog” )
In Europe it’s common practice to have a light stallion breed to a heavier mare. It probably doesn’t matter much whether heavier is on top or not, but it’s a quicker way to lighten up a breed using top stallions that are lighter than the mares.
No matter what you’re still breeding opposites when breeding TBs and drafts. Irish Draughts can be quite heavy but are bred to run and jump, and are not 18 hands high. They are often used for foxhunting. You CAN get a good TB/ draft cross but it’s MORE of a crap shoot than other crosses. After all, Charisma was 1/32 Percheron. :lol:
There are a lot of very successful Irish Draught crosses in top level eventing. Man in the Moon looked to be full Irish Draught, King William was 1/4 ID, and many top event horses have Irish Draught blood in them, although they often have a lot more TB than ID: Custom Made, Giltedge, Eagle Lion, Supreme Rock, Murphy Himself … the list is very long.
Edited to add: There have been very successful IDSH in show jumping too: the stallion Cruising, and the incredible mare Liscalgot, who won the World Equestrian Games in 2002.
[QUOTE=Phyxius;3363056]
ETA : And, Kaeleer just to be safe rarely will you find a RID or ISH owner who would consider their draught or draught cross to be a “draft” like the heavy drafts that most think of when they hear the word “draught” (which is pronounced the same as draft). It’s kinda like fox hunters have a fit if you call their hounds a “dog” )[/QUOTE]
Oh my goodness, yes! I’d forgotten that when I posted. Thanks for the reminder.
