Belgian Drafts for Dressage

[Kaeleer]

@Ambrey;3363475

If something exists I’d love to read it, but I remain skeptical.

And I would not for one nanosecond deny your right to scepticism. However, that is a far cry from saying “most people” agree with you.

Beyond the above comment, all you’re doing is trying to pick another fight Kaeleer. This isn’t one I care that much about, sorry.

You know, you could just have said “I don’t know”. I would have accepted that as an answer as well.

Can you and Kaeleer talk about your use of the word “many” here? She seems to think broad generalizations are OK about draft horses, but not about mitochondrial DNA.

Actually, what I think is that “broad generalisations” which imply that they have their basis in empirical fact, when they don’t, are not okay. Forming an opinion based on “broad generalisations” is.

Perhaps you can’t understand the subtle distinction between YOUR opinion and empirical fact, but for some people, including me, that distinction is not only real, it is quite important.

Unfortunately for you, your arguments are not particularly cogent. Strident foot-stamping and posturing seldom is. If you want to convince me that draft horses (and by this, I don’t mean crosses, I mean a drafts, which is what YOU are asserting) are capable of performing competitive dressage, then by all means find a few. I am well aware that there are some crosses who are competing at dressage, but the question here is not crosses, it is drafts.

Contrary to what you may believe, I have no dog in this fight and I’m more than happy to embrace the idea that drafts can perform dressage at upper level if it can be shown to be so.

[Ambrey]

@grayarabpony;3363502

Yes, we’ll have to disagree. For the most part pure drafts don’t make fine riding horses. They’re too big, and too clunky.

The part we disagree on is where most drafts are the big and clunky type. Unless you are using “greater than 50%” as your definitions of most, rather than “the vast majority.”

I don’t think she’s butt high if you figure out where her withers actually are She is not a young horse, I believe it says she’s a mature mare.

[Ambrey]

@Kaeleer;3363511

And I would not for one nanosecond deny your right to scepticism. However, that is a far cry from saying “most people” agree with you.

No, I said “most people” DISAGREE with me. Entirely different concept I actually believe my use of “most people” in that case bore no claim of empiricality.

Regarding my foot stamping about how competitive drafts can be, this is post # 18 by me:

Some of us are saying that SOME drafts can be successful at upper levels, depending on how you define upper levels and how you define successful ;).

There was a purebred percheron who competed at GP and did well. One farm has based a really successful draftx breeding program off of him (he’s passed on now). http://www.forresthillfarm.com/page13.html

But it’s based on the variation within the breed. Belgians can be light or they can be very, very heavy (brabant). Draft crosses can be well put together and athletic or they can be a mishmash of parts that look like they don’t fit together.

I hardly consider that me throwing a tantrum demanding all drafts be given Grand Prix ribbons.

[mp]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3363507]
I think that’s probably why certain breeds are so much better than others (those patterns of dominance and homozygosity I was talking about). Modern Percherons, for example, have been around for a long time, and there are lines that go back quite a ways. That would be different from breeding the light boned offspring of a light and a heavy draft.

But these are things all breeders need to consider to turn out quality stock! Look at any of the “bloodline based” breeds, and you’ll find that someone will manage to come up with a breeding program that routinely turns out mutants (I’m using this humorously, not literally ;)).

In the end, the more you know your bloodlines, the more consistent your product will be. At least, this is what I’m told :)[/QUOTE]

But when you cross a Perch or any other draft to a wildly dissimilar breed, you will still get more inconsistent results than if you bred two similar breeds, even if you know the bloodlines of both draft and hotblood. There is a reason the Anglo-Arab cross is popular – because you can get the speed and athleticism of the TB and the endurance of the Arab with some consistency. And even if you don’t, you’ve still got a decent riding horse.

Saying you need to know your bloodlines to turn out quality stock is stating the obvious. And everyone knows even the most successful breeders end up with surprises, which makes my point: Breeding is enough of a crapshoot as it is. Crossing cold bloods to hot bloods just makes it even harder.

[Ambrey]

@mp;3363549

But when you cross a Perch or any other draft to a wildly dissimilar breed, you will still get more inconsistent results than if you bred two similar breeds, even if you know the bloodlines of both draft and hotblood. There is a reason the Anglo-Arab cross is popular – because you can get the speed and athleticism of the TB and the endurance of the Arab with some consistency. And even if you don’t, you’ve still got a decent riding horse.

But that’s not what’s happening. Good breeding programs breeding appropriate Percherons to TBs are not getting mishmash babies.

If it’s such a given that this is the case, why isn’t it happening?

[tisor]

my belgian draft th cross

is fantastic! had dressage training though i must say i just jump him. SUPEWR athletic and smart and as a previous threat stated a HUGE sense of justice!

here he is jumping

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neTFBNYAaTY

what’s funny is that i’m trying to sell him and keep getting queries from trainers with timid little girls looking for a big bomb proof beginner horse. the assumption seems to be that tey arent forward. this one DEFINTELY is. forward and really willing.

[mp]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3363560]
But that’s not what’s happening. Good breeding programs breeding appropriate Percherons to TBs are not getting mishmash babies.

If it’s such a given that this is the case, why isn’t it happening?[/QUOTE]

I didn’t say no one could breed a nice Perch/TB cross. I didn’t say you’ll only get mish-mash babies. I said you won’t get the consistency with a straight draft/hotblood cross that you get if you breed like to like. You’ll have more culls and fewer nice ones. No matter how much research you do and how well you know the bloodlines.

And good breeding is all about consistency.

[Ajierene]

[QUOTE=mp;3363549]
But when you cross a Perch or any other draft to a wildly dissimilar breed, you will still get more inconsistent results than if you bred two similar breeds, even if you know the bloodlines of both draft and hotblood. There is a reason the Anglo-Arab cross is popular – because you can get the speed and athleticism of the TB and the endurance of the Arab with some consistency. And even if you don’t, you’ve still got a decent riding horse.[/QUOTE]

Interestingly - I am thinking about breeding my Thoroughbred mare to a nice Holstein stallion. I talked to the lady and the stallion is young (no babies on the ground yet). We discussed what am I looking to produce and she cautioned me that with such divergent bloodlines, it is hard to say if I am really going to get what I am looking for - this is especially true because he has no kids yet, so nothing to say ‘this is what happens when he is crossed with a Thoroughbred’.

I also know someone who bred a prize winning, beautiful stud - with prize winning, beautiful children - to a prize winning, beautiful mare - with prize winning beautiful children - and got the ugliest little foal ever. They were confirmationally complimentary, and the same breed, so it wasn’t about crossing two completely different equines, it was about the crapshoot…

I looked again at the Belgian compared to the Percheron and this is what I see, overall - Belgians have straighter shoulders, longer backs, slightly flatter croups and smaller hips. To me, this is where the difference is in Percherons being better at dressage than Belgians (generally speaking).

And on another note…This picture is entitled ‘Belgian with Child’.

Tell me I am not going crazy and that is a donkey hanging out with the horse!
http://www.livingbeing.com/BELGIAN%20HORSE%20WITH%20CHILD(c)%20Paul%20Smyres.JPG

[Ambrey]

LOL, I saw that picture when I was doing a search for something else, and thought the same thing!

[mp]

You’re not crazy. That would be a miniature donkey, by the looks of it.

I’m not dissing cross-breeding. Just pointing out (as the stallion owner did) that there are greater risks to breeding dissimilar individuals. And breeding is such a crapshoot as it is. I’ve got two full siblings that don’t look much alike at all. They’re both nice riding horses and similar in personality and capabitilies. But in looks, the gelding is the spitting image of his sire and the mare is the image of her dam. Naturally, the gelding is prettier than his sister. But I guess I should be glad I didn’t end up with two mutants.

[Ambrey]

@mp;3363663

But I guess I should be glad I didn’t end up with two mutants.

If they all turn out to be nice, capable horses you are way ahead of the game!

[slc2]

beating a dead horse:lol:

[tikidoc]

[QUOTE=Cielo Azure;3363125]
Phyxius, You probably already know this but mitochondrial DNA is inherited almost exclusively from the mother, and there are studies showing that this inheritance pattern makes it so that the mother has more of her DNA passed down to her offspring than the father. There have been recent studies (which I am not pulling up -no time to do a pubmed search) that show that this results in a phenotype whereby the dam has more of a influence than the sire.[/QUOTE]

You are correct that mitochondrial DNA comes exclusively from the maternal side. HOWEVER, mitochondrial DNA makes up only a very small fraction of the DNA in the entire genome. In humans, for example, the mitochondrial DNA consists of about 16500 base pairs and 37 genes, about 80% of which code for mitochondrial proteins. In comparison, the human genome consists of approximately 20000-25000 genes and about 3 BILLION base pairs. So the mitochondrial DNA in the human accounts for about 0.0006% of the total DNA. While horses may have slightly different numbers, we are talking about a miniscule percentage of the DNA, none of which would likely code for anything that would result in differences in conformation. I am not a breeder but I have a strong background in genetics, and it makes no sense to me that a horse will be more or less drafty depending upon which parent is the draft.

I have not gone through all of the posts in this thread, but I am the owner of a draft cross, who I adore. He has a great mind, and is actually turning into a very nice amateur dressage horse. He also has a great jump. This is a pic of a friend riding him recently, just back a week after vacation of almost a year for him. He looks MUCH less drafty when he is not overweight, but you get the idea. He has pretty much been a pasture ornament for most of the last year.

http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f190/tikidoc/?action=view&current=rocky.jpg

As much as I adore this horse, if I was to breed a horse, this is not a cross I would likely make. But I am happy that the breeder of my guy took the chance.

[STF]

26 Pages of what???
Some of you are way to long winded…

[Phyxius]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3363467]
Perhaps he is the one TB/ draft cross I have seen that I liked.

Edited to add: I’d still take a good TB over a TB/ draft cross any day of the week, unless it’s an exceptional draft cross. I’ve seen more draft crosses who were clunky, if not downright dangerous (hanging knee) jumpers, than I have cared to see.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure about the knees…

3 different draft crosses
http://phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/299873894_hBbtS-L-1.jpg
http://phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/138363573_RhEGy-M-2.jpg
http://phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/138373524_77EVS-M-1.jpg

2 full drafts
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/phyxius/peanut/pjump.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/phyxius/peanut/pccjump.jpg
http://phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/152518318_VWQGG-L-3.jpg

At the shows and events around here I’ve only seen one clunky-crash-through-'em drafty, but it was with a beginner rider of w/t cross rails at a tiny schooling show. There are TONS of foxhunters around this area that use draft crosses.

[bird4416]

Here is a pic of my clunky knee-hanging Belgian cross.
http://image69.webshots.com/69/5/54/86/2185554860034166832FsVQtf_fs.jpg

[Donella]

I am confused as to why everyone keeps bringing up their draft cross? There is a world of difference between a full belgian and a say perch x tb.

[grayarabpony]

I’ve seen more than one clunky draft cross, as I’m sure everyone on this board has. As I said I’ve seen one good one, although there are obviously more around than that. The draft crosses pictured look cute but the jumps are small. Fox hunting horses come in all breeds, anything from Quarter Horses to ponies to Tennessee Walkers. In many hunts in this country the horses don’t jump 4’ stone walls like they do in Ireland. And yes, doubtless there are good draft crosses that can jump 4’. But a lower percentage than TBs that can jump 4’.

I have also said that I wouldn’t turn down an exceptional draft cross. Doesn’t anyone here read? If built well a draft cross should hold up to foxhunting. But for reasons I’ve already cited draft and TB crosses are something as a breeder I would stay away from. I have not been impressed with most of the draft crosses that I have seen. Few draft crosses can compete with the TB in the run and jump category. If I wanted a more substantial horse I’d probably go with an Irish Draught cross, as Irish Draughts are bred to run and jump, or a heavier type warmblood.

That is my experience and my opinion. If you want to read something in my posts and take it as an insult to your own mount, that is your problem, as my posts are not meant as such.

[Ambrey]

@Donella;3364171

I am confused as to why everyone keeps bringing up their draft cross? There is a world of difference between a full belgian and a say perch x tb.

Someone brought them into the discussion at around post 3 or 4, by throwing them in with drafts in the “not good for dressage” group.

:yes: Can’t make this $hit up!

So I have a new idea.

How many COTH forum posters does it take to decide whether Belgians can do dressage?

1 to analyze the conformation of a belgian and announce why it is inappropriate.

10 to show pictures of their horses doing dressage even though they have the above mentioned inappropriate conformation.

3 to tell the 10 above that they aren’t doing it right.

1 to say that not only are belgians inappropriate, but all drafts, draft crosses, horses that have ever pastured with a draft, and horses in drafty stalls are inappropriate.

15 people to complain that the thread is annoying… at least 3 times each.

5 people to use the thread to try out the new insults they learned on the playground.

… and so on

eta: I forgot the people to tell the 10 who are doing dressage on the drafts that they are being cruel and their horses are being tortured.

Ooh, I added another one. Two people to go through the thread, add up the posts, and insult the person who posted most… for posting too much.

[Ambrey]

@grayarabpony;3364218

I’ve seen more than one clunky draft cross, as I’m sure everyone on this board has. As I said I’ve seen one good one, although there are obviously more around than that. The draft crosses pictured look cute but the jumps are small. Fox hunting horses come in all breeds, anything from Quarter Horses to ponies to Tennessee Walkers. In many hunts in this country the horses don’t jump 4’ stone walls like they do in Ireland. And yes, doubtless there are good draft crosses that can jump 4’. But a lower percentage than TBs that can jump 4’.

Yep, seen tons of nasty looking draft crosses

I think some people want something sturdier for jumping/hunting. They are concerned with soundness issues, they want something with some bone to them. I think that’s why the draftx are popular, as they can be athletic as well as sturdy.

I’ve never seen my horse jump- I’ve only been told by my trainer that he enjoys it. He might be a knee hanging danger to himself and others.