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Belgian Drafts for Dressage

Dressage
#41

Why should we let people with little experience with the breed tell us what they can and can’t do? Those of us who have succesful FEI trainers working with our horses are finding them quite suitable. Not olympic material or 72% at PSG material; but I am looking for a horse that can do around 60% at PSG and has a temperament that makes it possible for me to learn the levels by doing most of the training myself.

In general I think any of the lighter belgians could do a respectable dressage test above 2nd level with a rider who was willing to put in the time and a capable trainer. But the rider has to invest the time and training.

Why does it bother people so much that a rider can find a completely suitable horse for dressage in a draft horse package? It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if a rider wanted to try out their warmbloods in a 8-up competition.

#42

Again,
I didn’t that NONE have ever been ridden at that level. I said it is very unlikely that they will A make it to that level and B actually get decent scores. I also said (a few times) that a draft and a draft cross are NOT the same. The OP also asked about BELGIANS not a draft breed that is not very similiar (percheron). And even among percherons, getting past second and getting past second with decent scores, this has got to be a very rare feat indeed. To me there is a HUGE difference between “doing” dressage and doing it well (being competative).

Most drafts are entirely unsuited to collection and therefor dressage at second level and above. That is reality. Dressage is a demanding sport just like any other. Why people have a hard time grasping this I am not sure.

ps…there are ALOT of unsuited horses, even among breeds that are bred for it. They just exist in lower numbers in relation to the parent population.

#43

Why does it bother people so much that a rider can find a completely suitable horse for dressage in a draft horse package? It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if a rider wanted to try out their warmbloods in a 8-up competition

What bothers me is when people try to force a job on a horse because they want to be that person who “did what others never thought was achievable”. Who wouldn’t love to take their off breed and bring it up through the levels with great success. But what we are seeing alot of at shows is people trying to do this and they are not doing it well. The horse is struggling and the rider either doesn’t have a clue or is frustrated and then often blames her poor results on a breed bias. I just personally do not think it is fair to ask a horse not built at all for a specific job…to do that job. In most of these cases, the horse breaks down early, turns sour and the rider is frustrated. This is part of the reason the performance standards were brought in (thank GOD for that).

If you happen to have that Belgian that is built very unlike it’s breed standard dictates that is should be built, and you are able to train it well and the horse is happy in it’s work, then all the power to you! This would be awesome. But again, for the billionth time, the OP asked if BELGIAN DRAFTS ARE, IN GENERAL, SUITED TO DRESSAGE PAST SECOND LEVEL. The realistic answer is NO, they are not. And despite what a few of the draft owning posters here have to say, the results do speak for themselves. A belgian draft horse that has made a splash in competative dressage past second level is something that I am not sure even exists…it is THAT rare.

#44

I think your idea of “doing it well” might be a bit out of the league of most of us, even if we did get that fancy WB you are selling. Around here, 4th level and PSG are routinely won by scores in the low 60s. At recognized shows.

Cottonwood Flame was a regional champion, I believe.

So I have a question. Did it just happen that a very talented trainer/rider just by accident got the ONE percheron stallion on the planet capable of being competitive at GP? Or is it just as likely that if more really talented people were using off breeds, we’d be seeing more competitive off breeds? Because the stats don’t prove one or the other.

I have a horse that finds collection so easy he uses it as an evasion (“fine, if you won’t get off my mouth and let me be giraffe necked, I’ll piaffe until you give up!”). Yet, tempermentally I don’t think he’s as well suited to AA dressage as my big guy. He’s sensitive and really prefers to do his own thing. He’s also very busy and fidgety. My draftx has a combination of a fairly decent build and a great temperment. I would much rather learn on him than one of the WB nutcases around that are billed as dressage horses just because of their breed (and no, I’m not saying all WBs are nutcases! Just that it takes more than conformation to make a trainable, rideable horse).

#45

Again, again, again. There are not a huge number of “x” breed at “x” level because not many people are attempting to ride “x” breed at “x” level. Look at it statisically. For every 100 horses of “x” breed how many are competing in dressage or are in training with an FEI level trainer? Now, compare that to 100 horses of “y” breed and see the difference?

Not ONE person here said all drafts, all begians, all percherons, or all crosses can perform upper level movements. YOU have turned this into a breedist arguement as opposed to an enlightening conversation.

Oh, and I do own a warmblood as well. :slight_smile:

#46

[QUOTE=TaliaCristianna;3349560]
Versatility is not a purely physical trait. Quarter horses are famous for their trainability and easygoing personalities. Perhaps the breeders of such horses are in love with both the QH mind AND jumping… What’s wrong with breeding selectively in order to get the temperament you desire along with the conformation that is most suitable for your favorite discipline?

Because APHA has always been a breed primarily based on bloodlines. It is NOT just a color breed and never has been. APHA wouldn’t exist if AQHA hadn’t decided once upon a time that excessive white wasn’t allowed, even though it has always been a naturally occurring phenomenon within the QH breeding stock. (Just like how solid foals will always be a natural occurrence in APHA breeding stock.)

AQHA has since learned the error of its ways and has gotten rid of the excessive white rule… Why would APHA want to now go down that same type of path?[/QUOTE]

Now keep in mind - these are my opinions, and I am entitled them. That being said - to answer your questions:

I have seen as many ‘crazy quarter horses’ as I have ‘crazy thoroughbreds’. I haves seen as many ‘willing and able thoroughbreds’ as I have ‘willing and able quarter horses’. I have never seen quarter horses be so much more willing than thoroughbreds.

But I see alot of this in breed enthusiasts - they don’t want to get away from the breed but want to do something the breed was not designed for. Next thing you know, breeding away from original breed standard and for the ‘new’ discipline.

As far as paints go - if you keep breeding selectively for color, you will eventually breed out the solid colors. I do not understand your logic that paints were always based on bloodlines then saying they were formed because quarter horses could not have to much white. Wouldn’t that meant he breed was based on color, then bloodlines?

If you go to the APHA website, they focus on the founding of the American Paint Stock Horse Association - which started up because they like the idea of the Pinto Association, but wanted to preserve the stock horse type as well as the color. The color and confirmation was paramount. They did merge with the fledgling American Paint Horse Association that was about to go under, but this merger covers the last few lines of the history of the APHA (http://www.apha.com/breed/history.html). Can you offer some references for the ‘based on bloodlines’ and “APHA wouldn’t exist if AQHA hadn’t decided once upon a time that excessive white wasn’t allowed.”

#47

What evidence do you have that this is what is happening with most off breeds? I certainly don’t see any of it. I know a lot of people get very frustrated and max out at 3rd level, but that’s not exclusive to off breeds by any stretch!

Most PEOPLE max out at 2nd/3rd, let alone horses. Maybe if they are frustrated, it’s at themselves? Maybe if their horses are unhappy, it’s because the people have gone past the point that their bodies are capable of doing well?

Just because I have new pics, here is my unhappy, frustrated drafty (and you say draft crosses are different, but you can see that he takes after the drafty side considerably) and the headless horseman, who has been decapitated to protect his identity.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/smokey07-08004b.jpg

And him sweetly putting up with his crooked, slumped, piano handed owner who is holding on to what a wise woman once told her… “everyone has the potential to go to FEI until they stop riding or die” while fiercely ignoring the physical therapist who told her 5 times today that she shouldn’t be riding.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/smokey07-08007.jpg

If you knew how he started, you’d be amazed at his progress :slight_smile: We’ll see how far he goes- I’m pretty sure I’m required to get at least to 4th so we can do a pas de deux with Lewin and her mare, during which my studly boy will be google eyed over his true love.

#48

The breeding stock pool wasn’t large enough, so they have always allowed quarter horses to breed in.

What happened was that quarter horses were coming up with “cropouts” that were not eligible for QH registry because of their color (paint). These horses were then registered APHA.

One problem with the breeding plan you would like to see is OLWS. Overo lethal white syndrome is a lethal birth defect and occurs when a foal gets two of the OWLS genes (the gene often expresses as frame overo when heterozygous… homozygous horses are pure white and don’t live long). So bringing in QH and TB blood helps widen the gene pool.

Interestingly, when AQHA changed their rules, it was retroactive. So, there are a limited number of horses who have dual AQHA/APHA registry because they were initially denied AQHA registry. Now, APHA requires at least one parent to be registered APHA, so the only way to get one of these special dual registered horses is to breed to one of the current dual registered horses :slight_smile:

eta: WB registries have been allowing TB, arab, etc blood forever!

#49

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3349871]
So I have a question. Did it just happen that a very talented trainer/rider just by accident got the ONE percheron stallion on the planet capable of being competitive at GP? Or is it just as likely that if more really talented people were using off breeds, we’d be seeing more competitive off breeds? Because the stats don’t prove one or the other.[/QUOTE]

A very similar topic was discussed on another board. What makes the upper level riders upper level riders? They don’t waste their time on unsuitable mounts. It was discussed that Phillip Dutton or Bruce Davidson would not waste more than a few months on my mare before they would sell her. Even looking at her and watching her go, they might decline to purchase her. Is it her breed? No, it is the fact that she will never be an upper level event horse.

This trainer looked at the Percheron, being the expert she is, could tell he could make it big and/or watched him go and saw the natural talent. This is why she decided to ride him.

It would have been the same had he been an Oldenburg or Andalusian or any other breed. Because he made it does not mean every horse of his breed can make it. Percherons are more suited for dressage and riding in general than Belgians, but again, had he been a Belgian people would have been saying all Belgians can do dressage because he made it to the top.

Karen O’Connor saw the Olympic ability in Teddy - does that mean every mix breed pony can make it? No, Teddy especially was a one in a million. Had he been a different Shetland/Arab/Thoroughbred (I Think I have the cross right…) she would have passed him up.

This is not necessarily the case. You do need to look at the amount of people that try and fail and the amount that succeed, the breed standards, etc.

#50

You can stop convincing people that not every member of any breed can “make it.” We get it, really :wink:

How many great trainers are looking at Percherons? That’s my question. How do we know how many could do the same as Cottonwood Flame if nobody is willing to give them a chance?

Courtenay Fraser gave her horse a chance, and look where she is :slight_smile:

Even people who are shopping WBs have to look at many horses to find the ones most likely to make upper levels (again, are we talking GP or 4th here?). Someone searching for an off breed has to sift through even more, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t out there.

#51

That’s what I am talking about Ambrey - you have to look at the numbers.

What percentage of X breed are rejected by high level trainers based on their lack of ability, not breed prejudice. How well does the breed do with amateurs opposed to pros, what are the average scores at each level the breed gets, etc.

These are not number that I have, but people tend to jump to breed prejudice and one off examples to ‘dissprove the stereotype’ and prove their point.

The numbers need to be looked at to really understand what breeds do well at what disciplines.

I’m not so sure what is so amazing about Courtenay doing well on a Warmblood (Belgian/QH/Thoroughbred cross is a warmblood in the definition of a warmblood being a hot blood/cold blood cross).

I’m not saying it isn’t great that she got a PMU rescue and went so far with him, but she didn’t take a breed out if it’s standard discipline and go to the stars with it.

#52

There is no proof that dressage is harmful to horses. From the USDF website:

Choosing a horse is a personal decision but several factors are important when making your choice. A good dressage horse has a good character, should be a willing learner and have three clear, rhythmic gaits: walk, trot and canter. Ideally, he should fit you, as a rider, in temperament, level of training and size.

Does the website need to be changed???

If dressage really is dangerous, unfair, and cruel to so many horses, why do we continue to allow them to compete? Why is no one addressing this??? :confused: I suspect it is because there is no factual basis behind these assertions…

It is obvious that some people feel threatened by those who choose to do their own thing. They are uncomfortable because they are unfamiliar with the breed and because it looks different. That’s fine. But to try to scare people by telling them they are hurting their horses by going faster than a walk… that is just pathetic. :no: People need to learn to leave each other alone. If you don’t like someone’s horse, then don’t watch them ride. Just stop making up the stupid scare tactics. It makes you look really desperate, and meanwhile the intended targets are doing just great!

All of the conformation challenges people have mentioned are even MORE reasons to do dressage! In fact, everything on this thread has been in favor or drafts doing dressage, whether you want to admit it or not.

#53

double clickage

#54

I tend to side more with those saying that any horse can do lower level dressage, but you may run into hind end problems asking a Belgian to do upper level sitting. They just weren’t built to carry their weight in that manner.

That said, last year (and this weekend!) I had a chance to watch Big Horse Productions at our local expo. When they came in for their vaulting routine, I commented that they had the most fit, athletic belgians that I had seen. Later they came back for another routine, and the guy was riding bareback (well, behind the vaulting surcingle) with a snaffle and he piaffed and passaged that dang belgian all over the arena. It was one of the best piaffe’s i’ve seen. It certainly put the dressage and trick rider’s “upper level” moves to shame, who performed earlier in the night. Their primary vaulting horses have nicer canters than quite a few warmbloods. I was impressed.

Their horses:
http://bighorseproductions.com/horses.html
A video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7422408747041315624&hl=en

So in general, I don’t think they are the most appropriate choice for upper level dressage, but that’s not to say you can’t find an individual in any breed up to the task.

#55

[QUOTE=Ajierene;3349899]
Now keep in mind - these are my opinions, and I am entitled them.[/QUOTE]

I don’t recall implying that you were not. I enjoy a good debate and would never insinuate that my views were anything more then personal opinion as well.

There will always be crazies in every breed. In addition, most anyone that has owned both TBs and QHs (like myself) will tell you without a doubt that TBs DO tend to run a bit hotter then QHs. I personally like a horse that’s has a bit of a hot side to it, but if I were going to find a beginning horse for my 12 year old nephew you can bet that I’d be more likely to find a QH that’s appropriate for him then a TB.

The QH was originally bred to race, hence the name. The breed was not originally designed for western disciplines either. Do you take issue with reining horses too? They also look and move completely different from the “old style” quarter horses.

That’s a genetic impossibility.

The APHA ONLY allows horses of Paint, TB, or QH parentage within its registry. A horse can not be registered with APHA based on color and color alone. Bloodlines come first, color comes second but IS NOT a requirement. Simple as that. You’re confusing APHA with PtHA.

"A PINTO is simply “a horse whose dual-colored coat pattern is comprised of white areas combined with another of the basic coat colors” (PtHA). The Pinto Horse Association of America registers horses with Pinto coloring. Many Pintos are also registered with other breed associations (such as Oldenburgs, Saddlebreds, Miniatures, Half-Arabians, etc.) PtHA will not, however, register a horse that shows evidence of draft or mule breeding.

A PAINT horse is one that is registered with the American Paint Horse Association (APHA) and both of its’ parents must be registered Paint horses, Quarter horses, or Thoroughbreds. Although a patterned coat IS desireable it is not a requirement for registration if certain bloodline requirements are met."

#56

I do think that draft and draft crosses do make good horses for some non serious riders, but unfot their conformation goes against them in the long run to do more upper level work. Most are just not built for it. I have seen some that have been crossed with a parent that has postive conformation and the cross was correct and much more “typey” for the job.
Draft breeds are usually not allowed into the controlled breeding registires for a reason. It has been tried in some of the past regtiries and the breed type was below standard to what the overall registry is trying to acheive. I know some like the AWS and such do take drafts, but they are uaually only nominated and not “approved”.
Yes, there are some that make cute little dressage horses, but overall the breed is not something someone would be looking at if they were looking for a serious dressage prospect.
JMO

#57

Great video!

Looking at the video, you can see how much range there is in movement. Some of the horses look pretty stiff trying to do a nice slow canter, and some of them look completely comfortable. And they have some that are very heavy and some that look a lot like Lewin’s very lightly built Percheron.

Ya know, we all have different goals in dressage. Some of us want to rock the world. Some of us will be thrilled to just do a decent leg yield some day. I think, in answering these questions, it’s kind of an important distinction.

I really feel like some people who respond on these threads not only want to discourage people from trying dressage with drafts, they also want to discourage people who are already doing it (the comments like “just because they can do the movements doesn’t make them a dressage horse”).

And then people say there’s no breed bias, when people are already assuming that our horses aren’t “real” dressage horses and that we’re fooling ourselves, when they’ve never seen our horses go? I can’t speak for others, but Lewin and I have trainers who are perfectly qualified to critique our horses, and actually know them. I think it’s amazing that people would rather think our trainers are delusional than admit that maybe a draft horse can be a dressage horse.

#58

Not really. If all APHA horses were only bred to other APHA horses, and the solids weeded out and not rebred, APHA would be like some other breeds and have all homozygous horses.

#59

And then people say there’s no breed bias, when people are already assuming that our horses aren’t “real” dressage horses and that we’re fooling ourselves, when they’ve never seen our horses go? I can’t speak for others, but Lewin and I have trainers who are perfectly qualified to critique our horses, and actually know them. I think it’s amazing that people would rather think our trainers are delusional than admit that maybe a draft horse can be a dressage horse.

You should not care what people think. If your scores are good then great. It comes down to the final % in the long run. :wink:

#60

I have a Belgian draft cross and everyday I tell her how AWESOME she is. And she really is. She’s smart and patient and a great teacher. And she’s funny too.

She does really well at shows and scores very well. We often get comments about how nice and correct her gaits are. We get a little dinged on the submission usually (that’s her smart coming thru :wink: ).
However, I know that she probably won’t take me much beyond 1st level (we just started showing training, schooling some 1st level movements at home). We may be able to squeeze a little 2nd level in there, but that’ll probably it for her.

I saw a Shire cross at a clinic recently that was great and is doing upper level work. I think it’s all up to the individual conformation AND temperament.

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