If you don’t care, why are you reading! And why are you making it about me?
Just stop yourself!
You’re just jealous!
That’s right, I don’t have the practice everyone else does. I was always the nice kid at school too, and whenever I tried to be mean to fit in I felt too bad and had to apologize later.
p.s. It always cracks me up when people try to insult me by stating the obvious. Tell my best friends how bull-headed I am and how tenacious I am in an argument, and see whether they defend me or commiserate
Sorry, my bad.
We have a show circuit that caters to just those breeds, and the show circuit (either draft or breed specific) to a certain extent determines what people are breeding for and what the “ideal” looks like.
The draft show circuit also includes under saddle classes, to a large and larger extent.
And later …
AQHA, AHA, and ApHC come to mind as circuits that command big money and give out big money. I don’t know how much money is involved in the draft circuits.
I was so amazed that anyone thinks you get MONEY other than a pittance for winning at an Arabian show that I inferred what you meant.
And I agreed that if you don’t know your breeding, the program is less likely to be successful. That’s incorrect… how?
Not incorrect. But just about as insightful as saying, “you have to breed a mare to get a foal.” It’s just the kind of wisdom someone who has never bred a horse would think is profound.
And I’m sorry, I could show a video of my horse doing 3rd level in a snaffle and someone would pick it apart and explain why my horse is still not a dressage horse. Because they are trying to prove a point, not looking at it with an open mind. So I stopped bothering back at around post 300.
I don’t need to see a video. And I don’t care if he’s going in a pelham or an elevator bit with 8" shanks. That’s your business. It’s just odd that your dressage horse is being trained in a bit he can’t be shown in.
If you read my posts without letting them actually affect your beliefs about my opinions, it’s going to be tough. I’ve tried to lay out my opinions specifically several times, but people are continuing to put words in my mouth and attribute statements to me that I have not made.
Good heavens, that first sentence just makes my head spin. As I said, my apologies for inferring something you didn’t mean. It’s just that you seem to have so little firsthand experience or even common knowledge of horses to back up the opinions you post so freely.
I’m not going to post on this thread again because I don’t see any point (for many reasons). But if you really want to become knowledgeable horsewoman, start riding more and posting less. Or get a job at a breeding farm. Or help a friend who breeds or trains or something. Anything that will give you firsthand experience. That’s how you learn, not by reading books or looking up web sites.
AnotherRound said:
You’re just jealous!
I knew it!!
I don’t need to see a video. And I don’t care if he’s going in a pelham or an elevator bit with 8" shanks. That’s your business. It’s just odd that your dressage horse is being trained in a bit he can’t be shown in.
And lots of dressage horses are trained in draw reins. $hit happens.
Good heavens, that first sentence just makes my head spin. As I said, my apologies for inferring something you didn’t mean. It’s just that you seem to have so little firsthand experience or even common knowledge of horses to back up the opinions you post so freely.
I think the poor assumptions here are that I imagine I have knowledge that I don’t. That’s why I asked the question- if breeding draft crosses is supposed to be a crapshoot, why are breeders so successful just by using basic (not profound) breeding practices? I have these debates because I learn more from them than I do from just reading something online, because one way to learn is to have people challenge your assumptions. So, I challenge others, and invite them to challenge mine.
I’m not going to post on this thread again because I don’t see any point (for many reasons). But if you really want to become knowledgeable horsewoman, start riding more and posting less.
I spent 2 hours in the saddle yesterday. I ride almost every day.
Honestly, I’d rather post my opinions and have them proven wrong than carry them around in my head thinking they are right!
p.s. Doesn’t AHA have something like futurity and nomination like in AQHA? I thought they did. If not, my bad- still big money going in, though
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3365700]
I think the poor assumptions here are that I imagine I have knowledge that I don’t. That’s why I asked the question- if breeding draft crosses is supposed to be a crapshoot, why are breeders so successful just by using basic (not profound) breeding practices? I have these debates because I learn more from them than I do from just reading something online, because one way to learn is to have people challenge your assumptions. So, I challenge others, and invite them to challenge mine.[/QUOTE]
Putting random awesome horses aside. I’m talking about the foal that comes out of two incorrectly conformed and incapatible horses and is somehow a gem. Put them aside, we are going to talk generalities here.
Say average means second level.
Two average warmblood dressage horses - what are you going to get? An average dressage prospect.
Take an Average dressage draft, cross it with an average dressage thoroughbred - what are you going to get? Well, is the horse going to be more drafty, more thoroughbredy, an ill conformed mix of the two, or an average dressage horse?
The problem is two completely different bloodlines, so the mix is questionable. Even with the stallion I am most likely going to breed to - since it is not the same breed as my mare and he does not have any foals on the ground yet, it is hard to say that I am going to get what I want - and I am not talking a coldblood to a hotblood.
The people that have successful draft cross breeding programs did not wake up one morning and breed the first thoroughbred they saw with the first draft they saw - the planned, they looked around, did research, most likely had some trial and error that they are not telling you about. They eventually figured out what would work and now they have a successful program. It is much harder to have a successful cross program than full breed program - anytime you cross any two breeds. Some crosses have been proven successful - quarter horse and arabian is popular, quarter horses and thoroughbreds are popular, one farm figured out how to successfully cross percherons and thoroughbreds, welsh and thoroughbred is popular.
I had been given an appaloosa/standarbred cross. Ears long enough to be a mule, same size head as my 16.1HH thoroughbred, even though she was 14.2 (I think some of the height issue was lack of nutrition before I got her), short legs, fat body, kind of short neck. Until someone shows me twenty nice looking horse from this cross, I am going to say it is not a good cross. She was great, great personality, very friendly - loved her for what she was and she is making a trail horse family very happy right now. Just not a good cross, generally speaking. There may be an awesome Appaloose/Standarbred cross out there or in 20 years, the farm may have figured it out - but right now I am going to say it is not a good cross.
Same for draft crosses…like I said before - if you are going to buy, sight unseen and want to go to and be competitive in the upper levels, hedge your bets on a Warmblood.
Really It’s not a good argument in your favor about drafts and drafts ability to be light if you have picture of yourself using a pelham or draw reins. They are both like using a calculator in math class.
I have a degree in engineering, and we always used a calculator
eta: If I said he was in a pelham to get him ready for a double, it would have been worse My trainer gave me several reasons, and that was one of them. But since he’s not even at training level yet, he must be wrong.
p.s. Yes, I’ve stopped answering the questions seriously. If anyone has any real, non-snide comments about my horse, his training, his life in a pelham, or my crappy riding, please feel free to PM me. I’m truly happy to discuss it. I just can’t do justice to explaining my trainer’s reasoning or methods, so I’m just substituting lame sarcasm.
But dude, there is so much true stuff to mock about me, there’s really no need to make $hit up.
I’ll even give you a new picture of my crappy riding to make fun of. Just don’t say I ever claimed to be a fancy FEI rider. Delusions of grandeur are not my style (it’s why I know I’m not bipolar, if I was I’d occasionally have a higher opinion of myself).
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/smokey07-08008.jpg
Please don’t get me started on engineers and the damage that they do. Maybe a little more time at basic math without calculators would do the engineering world a good service. Pelhams and Draw reins put a horse into a false frame. That is why the Spanish riding school and most classically trained dressage riders frown on them. If you find your horse’s frame with gadgets instead of good solid schooling 6 days a week. When you decide to loose the gadgets you loose the frame and start the work all over again. As a trainer and make no mistake every time you throw a leg over you are a trainer. It is your job to guide with feel if you do not develop that feel you will be a bad trainer. Not only that but teaching a horse that they can brace against your hand epically ones that really instinctively like to pull is a really bad idea. There is no reason that you could not get your horse light with proper dressage bits.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3365863]
I have a degree in engineering, and we always used a calculator
eta: If I said he was in a pelham to get him ready for a double, it would have been worse My trainer gave me several reasons, and that was one of them. But since he’s not even at training level yet, he must be wrong.
p.s. Yes, I’ve stopped answering the questions seriously. If anyone has any real, non-snide comments about my horse, his training, his life in a pelham, or my crappy riding, please feel free to PM me. I’m truly happy to discuss it. I just can’t do justice to explaining my trainer’s reasoning or methods, so I’m just substituting lame sarcasm.[/QUOTE]
I’m not trying to mock anyone. I would love to hear your trainer reasoning behind what he is doing maybe I can learn something. All I am saying not as a FEI level rider but a training level rider showing intro that I know you can get a draft forward and light in a snaffle bit. Believe me because I have done it. I ride a draft not a draft cross everyday in a full cheek snaffle. He has never seen a pelham or draw reins.
Absolutely. I agree 100% with everything you said.
Ambrey, are you reading any of this? It makes sense. The poster sounds very knowledgeable. She’s trying very gently tell you something, but I honestly don’t think you are willing to LISTEN to anything at this point.
You have completely derailed this thread and now you won’t let it go - you simply must have the last word.
My horse did all of his training and 1st level work in a loose ring snaffle. I find him extremely light, and he has no trouble carrying a frame in a snaffle. If you see him poking his nose out in photos of me riding, it’s because I’m letting him and he’ll go where the contact is. I guarantee you my trainer is somewhere in the arena yelling “don’t let him poke his nose out!”
Yes, I’m reading it. I understand. I just can’t drag my trainer into this little snarkfest. It’s bad enough that I subject myself and my horse to it. He is a very knowledgeable person, and I’m not going to try to explain his decisions for him.
I really feel very bad for even mentioning I have a trainer at this point, because although I’m sure he’d be comfortable dealing with criticism I am sure I’m opening him up for more than his share, and he’s not here to defend himself.
As long as you believe that my horse isn’t capable of carrying himself in a decent 1st/2nd level frame in a snaffle, there will be no acceptible reason to use a pelham (maybe even then, but still). And I can’t prove he can. So, we’re at an impasse 
Wait, I derailed the thread?
I posted a picture of my horse in a pelham and a bunch of people asked me why. People are still mentioning it and asking why. Is responding to questions the same as needing the last word?
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3366032]
My horse did all of his training and 1st level work in a loose ring snaffle. I find him extremely light, and he has no trouble carrying a frame in a snaffle. If you see him poking his nose out in photos of me riding, it’s because I’m letting him and he’ll go where the contact is. I guarantee you my trainer is somewhere in the arena yelling “don’t let him poke his nose out!”
I really do not think that I am attacking your trainer. I understand trainer loyalty I practice it my self with my trainer. However if your horse did all of his first level training in a snaffle which should be all of the foundation work that you will revisit at all the levels that you ride no matter what horse you ride. I find it puzzling that you and your trainer would start 2nd level collection with a pelham . Collection come from work with the inside leg to the outside rein. If you school this with your proper training and 1 level basics in time your horse will start to collect and hold bend. It will not be long at first just a few steps for months at a time but it will come around as the horse develops. I’m sorry but without a proper explanation of the reasoning behind the pelham most dressage riders are assuming that you are forcing a frame and trying to cheat your way into collection.
No personal offense to you or your trainer - but it’s being mentioned again and again because it is such a very very very very very very bad thing.
As in - so basically a bad thing that it’s dumbfounding that anyone using it should not be surprised that it’s being questioned.
Maybe the subject of bits is deserving of its own thread - and it isn’t fair to be focusing on your horse specifically - as its the bit that is problematic - not the horse its used on.
Separate issue - but one worthy of its own thread; not to lambaste you, your trainer or your horse, but to explore and discuss the subject of the purpose and use of different bits.
[QUOTE=AnotherRound;3365451]
Man, Riley, that’s the sanest thing anyone has said on this thread. What with all the constant posting and exagerating by Ambreee about her riding and her misquoting others to make them sound more extreme than they were, and her insulting and laughing at and attempts to marginalize other people’s opinions, its been hard to a follow who has said what. Many have tried to say what you just did very well, and I happen to agree.
To respond to others’ when they attempt to express that sensibility by being snide and shaming is just ignorant. People who handle themselves in a discussion by resorting to name calling if you don’t agree with them and denigrating the other poster’s intelligence do not come across as being very bright themselves. Too bad, but a good topic.[/QUOTE]
Hmm…proof read much or did you just not realize that almost everything you posted was exactly what you complained about?
Ginger, you have a PM.
Jswan, please feel free to open a new thread about it My trainer is not the first and won’t be the last to use Pelhams for a specific purpose. I understand, have understood, that it’s “frowned upon,” but, to paraphrase the words of Inego Montoya, “I do not think it means what you think it means.”
I would love to hear what more knowledgable people say about it, without it being focused on my horse and what it says about him.
