Belgian Drafts for Dressage

[Ambrey]

@grayarabpony;3365353

Of course there are draft crosses who are good in dressage, but I’ll believe your horse is a great dressage horse when I see a video of him showing or schooling second level in a snaffle. Can he do it? perhaps he very well can, but the way you argue his case is illogical. Instead of all of the endless arguing, putting up photos of butt-high (yes, butt-high) drafts and drafts almost four-beating on lunge lines, put up a video of your horse, schooling in a snaffle, showing self-carriage. It would carry a lot more weight and people would respect your opinion a lot more. Everyone likes a video of a horse working properly.

I don’t understand why we have to prove anything to you?

That’s the part I don’t get. Why is the burden of proof on us? We’re the ones working with the horses. We’re not asking you to buy them, just to believe us when we say they are doing fine and going well.

I won’t post video of my trainer riding my horse out of respect for him (look at what happened when people found out that he put a pelham in my horse’s mouth!). And as I said, I don’t have much in the way of decent video or photographs.

So, either believe it or don’t- but I don’t understand why people so badly want to NOT believe it. Why is it so important to feel that my horse isn’t going well? And why is the fact that you don’t want to believe it my fault?

I do love seeing people’s videos, but when people post “my horse is going well schooling 2nd level” I don’t say “prove it!” Why is it a competition? Why are people on a BB constantly judging each other? I don’t get it.

[grayarabpony]

Shrug – then don’t make claims you can’t back up. It’s that simple.

[JSwan]

@hitchinmygetalong;3365194

Just to remind you all what the topic WAS:

Dressage is dressage is dressage. Any horse should be capable of learning something. And the judges are supposed to be looking at the horse, not the breed, right? So, sure, I bet Belgians can perform dressage movements, but once you move to the higher levels they will be challenged by their build.

If I was looking for a “dressage” prospect, a Belgian would not be my first choice.

That was my point so many pages ago. Yes, they CAN. So can an Arabian, Draft Cross, or Morgan, etc. They can physically execute the movements within the confines of their conformation and build.

BUT - in a competitive sport - if you want to be a serious competitor you’re not going to want those breeds. Even in horses bred for the sport very few among them reach the upper levels. So though I know other breeds can physically execute the movements - that is not the same as saying those horses can be COMPETITIVE at the upper levels of the sport.

To me those are different concepts. The only thing I take exception to is those that use that difference to expound on their own prejudices, or to whom their horse’s breeding is a reflection of their own ego.

That’s just silly. They’re not fashion accessories. If someone thinks their Arabian is a nice little dressage horse there’s no call to sneer at them. Snobbiness is an extraordinarily unattractive trait.

[Ambrey]

@rileyt;3365408

What STF said, and what I totally agree with, is that it is unfair, cruel, and ignorant to ask a horse who truly has improper conformation for the sport, to train at the upper levels. The extension of that is, I think it would be unfair and ignorant to ask MOST horses with a “heavy draft” build (be they Belgian, Percheron, or Arabian for that matter) to do a proper canter pirouette, or piaffe. Indeed, it would be a recipe for blown hocks.

I don’t like to get into the quote wars. In fact, I try very hard not to do it, because I hate it when people do it to me.

But I believe we’ve all stated that to most of us down here in the regular world, 4th/PSG are “upper levels.” I believe ONE person has stated that many Percherons (not other draft breeds) could get to GP.

STF claimed that most drafts and crosses can’t get above 2nd level. Several people claimed that even trying to get past 2nd level into collection would be injurious.

Phyxius was told her horse was not talented in dressage. We were told that what we’re doing isn’t dressage, and we are not dressage riders.

And STF and others have said that drafts (not heavy drafts) are not going to be able to do dressage “right” because they are built to pull.

So people say these things, we disagree, and suddenly we’re “demanding that our drafts can all be GP horses” or saying that any bad score we get is from breed bias. Nobody seems to want to read what we’re actually saying, so we say it again and then we just are posting too much. It’s quite frustrating.

[Ambrey]

@J Swan;3365430

To me those are different concepts. The only thing I take exception to is those that use that difference to expound on their own prejudices, or to whom their horse’s breeding is a reflection of their own ego.

That’s just silly. They’re not fashion accessories. If someone thinks their Arabian is a nice little dressage horse there’s no call to sneer at them. Snobbiness is an extraordinarily unattractive trait.

I’ll sign that petition.

[elctrnc]

[QUOTE=rileyt;3365408]
No.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, riley, but I wasn’t talking about the high level dressage. i think everyone here agrees on the limitations of “non-traditional breeds” in the higher levels.

@STF

I said before, that many draft and draft crosses would make awesome horses for low level AA’s wanting to go out, drink a beer and just have some fun

What does this quote say to you? It says to me that drafts and draft crosses are only good for low level AAs who don’t want to be competitive (hence the beer and fun part). My perception from a quote like this is that drafts and draft crosses can’t be competitive even at the low levels. Am I reading too much into this?

[AnotherRound]

@rileyt;3365408

No.

No one here (including STF) has made the blanket statement that doing lower level dressage on a draft is unfair, cruel, or ignorant. Even a sickle-hocked, downhill, flat crouped horse with no pasterns can probably benefit from doing training level.

What STF said, and what I totally agree with, is that it is unfair, cruel, and ignorant to ask a horse who truly has improper conformation for the sport, to train at the upper levels. The extension of that is, I think it would be unfair and ignorant to ask MOST horses with a “heavy draft” build (be they Belgian, Percheron, or Arabian for that matter) to do a proper canter pirouette, or piaffe. Indeed, it would be a recipe for blown hocks.

Man, Riley, that’s the sanest thing anyone has said on this thread. What with all the constant posting and exagerating by Ambreee about her riding and her misquoting others to make them sound more extreme than they were, and her insulting and laughing at and attempts to marginalize other people’s opinions, its been hard to a follow who has said what. Many have tried to say what you just did very well, and I happen to agree.

I think conformation is important in most disciplines; there are some horses with conformation which won’t do well and will be injured competeing at high levels and this can be seen in most of the horse disciplines (imagine high level jumpers, racing, fox hunting, show hunters and endurance riding. You certainly can’t go far in those disciplines unless the horse has conformation to suit them), and recognizing that specific unsuitability in your horses is part of the responsibility you have in his care. To respond to others’ when they attempt to express that sensibility by being snide and shaming is just ignorant. People who handle themselves in a discussion by resorting to name calling if you don’t agree with them and denigrating the other poster’s intelligence do not come across as being very bright themselves .Too bad, but a good topic.

[mp]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3365208]
Why is my liking my horse so offensive to people? lol![/QUOTE]

I doubt anyone is offended that you like your horse. What would be the point of having him if you didn’t? I have Arabs and I like them.

However, you back up your beliefs about breeding good riding drafts and draftXs with wise specifics such as “you just have to know your bloodlines” …

And you think there are fewer saddle classes at draft shows than, say AHA shows because you can win MONEY at Arabian shows …

And your dressage horse is being trained in a bit (for whatever reason) that isn’t legal for showing …

It just puts your ideas and knowledge of horses in general into a different light.

That’s all.

[grayarabpony]

No one’s sneering, except at Ambrey’s hard-headedness. :lol: I’ve seen individuals from many breeds that are incredible in dressage, including an Arabians and a few TBs (although I’ve seen many more TBs who were good movers but were too run and jump oriented to be straight dressage horses). They often don’t conform to their own breed’s standard and I think should be tried in sportshorse breeding in this country. That’s what the Europeans have done and continue to do.

This thread has gone off track because of quotes taken out of context or personal preferences ranted over. Overall I’m not thrilled with the idea of breeding TBs to drafts. Why is this such a problem for other people seems strange to me. Does it mean that I hate every draft cross out there? (rhetorical question, Ambrey) Maybe after taking part in this thread maybe I will! :lol:

I ride a non-traditional dressage horse myself. Do I think she’s going to the Olympics? No. If she had 3 super gaits and a more steady mind and was a hand taller and had a different rider, maybe she could. But she had enough talent to be fun to ride, mainly because of her trot. She’ll let me know when she’s topped out.

[Ambrey]

@grayarabpony;3365428

Shrug – then don’t make claims you can’t back up. It’s that simple.

Why? Why is whether my claim can be proven important to you?

And do you even know what my claim IS? I’ve heard that I claim my horse is has GP potential and is on his way to the olympics, so sometimes I wonder. I claimed here that he’s schooling 2nd level.

[grayarabpony]

[rileyt]

@Ambrey;3365442

STF claimed that most drafts and crosses can’t get above 2nd level. Several people claimed that even trying to get past 2nd level into collection would be injurious.

Phyxius was told her horse was not talented in dressage. We were told that what we’re doing isn’t dressage, and we are not dressage riders.

And STF and others have said that drafts (not heavy drafts) are not going to be able to do dressage “right” because they are built to pull.

Even the minimal level of collection required by 2nd level (assuming the horse is actually doing a correct collected trot, and not faking it), puts strain on the hocks. ANY hocks. Add to that poorly formed hocks and it could be injurious.

I’m not trying to pick on Phyxius, or her horse… but my years and years of experience tell me (yes, from a single picture), that if her horse is “gifted” or “talented” in dressage (at least what I consider “talented”), I’ll eat my hat. That doesn’t mean he’s not a perfectly nice horse, and perfect for Phyxius. It might even mean that he sometimes wins classes because he is steady and well trained… but “talented”? I doubt it.

Draft horses were bred to pull. Its a fact. The ideal conformation for a “puller” is different than the ideal conformation than a gymnast. So, while STF is making a generalization, I think its a valid one.

And before I get accused of breed bias, let me say, my favorite horses in the world to ride are TBs. even for dressage. and I’ve shown a whole slew of TBs, mutts, and other “non-traditional” breeds in the dressage ring. Some with quite a bit of success. But at the really big shows, if there was a nice moving warmblood in the same class who turned in a good test… the best we could hope for was 2nd place. That’s not breed bias. That’s reality. My TBs move great (for TBs), but they don’t compare to a good WB. I used to send all of my beginning students out to their first events (beginner novice) on a Percheron/TB cross (that was built a lot like Phyxius’s guy). He was worth his weight in gold, and would get out there and “gallop” around the course with these pint-sized 7 year old girls up on his massive back. I loved him to death, but he was still basically a clunker. But nnone of this changes my mind, that in general, draft horses are not “talented” for dressage. At least not in the ways I think of “talent”.

[Cielo_Azure]

[QUOTE=rileyt;3365408]
No.

No one here (including STF) has made the blanket statement that doing lower level dressage on a draft is unfair, cruel, or ignorant. Even a sickle-hocked, downhill, flat crouped horse with no pasterns can probably benefit from doing training level.

What STF said, and what I totally agree with, is that it is unfair, cruel, and ignorant to ask a horse who truly has improper conformation for the sport, to train at the upper levels. The extension of that is, I think it would be unfair and ignorant to ask MOST horses with a “heavy draft” build (be they Belgian, Percheron, or Arabian for that matter) to do a proper canter pirouette, or piaffe. Indeed, it would be a recipe for blown hocks.[/QUOTE]

http://www.srs.at/
I consider these horses to have fairly heavy builds do you all? Dare I say, maybe even a little drafty? They have heavy bone, large feet and yet, no one questions whether they are suitable. They don’t seem to suffer from blown hocks at an abnormal rate. In fact, aren’t they known for going and going and going, well into old age?

Now, look at these horses:
http://www.pennwoodspercherons.com/
Other than being much taller, so proportionally they have larger everything, do they really look that different from the horses in the srs site above in terms of bone, body ratios, hock structure, etc?

When I take the labels off and view the two breeds of horses above and superimpose the images in my mind, I don’t “see” dissimilar breeds. In fact, breed “one” is considered one the foundation animals of breed “two” (way back when).

See I don’t get it. I just don’t see Percherons with blown hocks from overwork or stress on the joints. I won’t say it never happens but I view thousands of Percherons a year and I don’t see it. I have seen blown hocks from OCD and from tramautic injury but not from riding and dressage or from heavy driving. But hock issues? Can you show me the data?

[HOH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rileyt
No.

No one here (including STF) has made the blanket statement that doing lower level dressage on a draft is unfair, cruel, or ignorant. Even a sickle-hocked, downhill, flat crouped horse with no pasterns can probably benefit from doing training level.

What STF said, and what I totally agree with, is that it is unfair, cruel, and ignorant to ask a horse who truly has improper conformation for the sport, to train at the upper levels. The extension of that is, I think it would be unfair and ignorant to ask MOST horses with a “heavy draft” build (be they Belgian, Percheron, or Arabian for that matter) to do a proper canter pirouette, or piaffe. Indeed, it would be a recipe for blown hocks.

Originally posted by AnotherRound:
Man, Riley, that’s the sanest thing anyone has said on this thread. What with all the constant posting and exagerating by Ambreee about her riding and her misquoting others to make them sound more extreme than they were, and her insulting and laughing at and attempts to marginalize other people’s opinions, its been hard to a follow who has said what. Many have tried to say what you just did very well, and I happen to agree.

I think conformation is important in most disciplines; there is some conformation which won’t do well and will be injured competeing at high levels in most of the horse disciplines, and recognizing that unsuitability in your horses is part of the responsibility you have in his care. To respond to that sensibility by being snide and shaming is just ignorant. People who handle themselves in a discussion by resorting to name calling if you don’t agree with them and denigrating the other poster’s intelligence are not very bright. Too bad. Good topic.

---

WOW - just read thru the thread and ABSOLUTELY agree with the above statements. As an owner of drafts and draft crosses, I will enjoy dressage with them and go as far with their training as is safely possible. Because of their conformation, it will not be UL, but fun and educational non-the-less.

[Ambrey]

@mp;3365455

However, you back up your beliefs about breeding good riding drafts and draftXs with wise specifics such as “you just have to know your bloodlines” …

And you think there are fewer saddle classes at draft shows than, say AHA shows because you can win MONEY at Arabian shows …

And your dressage horse is being trained in a bit (for whatever reason) that isn’t legal for showing …

It just puts your ideas and knowledge of horses in general into a different light.

That’s all.

Uh… wtf?

I said there are fewer saddle classes at draft shows because you can win money on the arabian circuit… WHERE? I was ASKING whether there were big money show circuits in Europe. I mentioned a couple of big money show circuits here. I don’t think I ever even mentioned saddle classes at draft shows except to say they exist and are increasing in popularity.

I said that draftx programs that know their breeding are having success. And I agreed that if you don’t know your breeding, the program is less likely to be successful. That’s incorrect… how?

And I’m sorry, I could show a video of my horse doing 3rd level in a snaffle and someone would pick it apart and explain why my horse is still not a dressage horse. Because they are trying to prove a point, not looking at it with an open mind. So I stopped bothering back at around post 300.

As for breeding programs, here’s one of my quotes:

Like WBs, those doing it the MOST right are getting the best results (notably Forest Hill) and those taking the least amount of care are getting the worst results. AWS is the only registry that allows people to actually register them, get them rated if they want to breed them, etc.

I guess I don’t think it’s fair to compare the best of the european warmblood world, with their decades of progress in breeding, to the worst of the draft cross world, with some guy with a PMU ranch in Canada and some short necked draft mares and a grade stallion. Even the best of the draft cross world (a.k.a. the American Warmblood ;)) isn’t up to the best of the euro WB world yet, but it’s definitely in competition with the lower end and middle of the road WB breeders.
And Forrest Hill was my example. I’m not sure how much clearer I can get.

eta: If you read my posts without letting them actually affect your beliefs about my opinions, it’s going to be tough. I’ve tried to lay out my opinions specifically several times, but people are continuing to put words in my mouth and attribute statements to me that I have not made.

[hitchinmygetalong]

@Ambrey;3365208

Didja READ post 3?

Hence my reply. The thread stayed on the topic of Belgians for exactly 2 posts.

I stand corrected. My apologies.

[Ambrey]

@STF;3365354

Just becuase a handful did does not mean they all can. Thats the point everyone forgets. Look at the ratio of breeds that have been known to excel (even at low levels) compare to high levels.

I agreed with this statement at least 6 pages ago.

[JSwan]

I don’t get the whole TB/Draft thing either - but I also have two in my barn so that makes me a bit of a liar.

And my 16 year old draft cross eventer turned dressage horse turned foxhunter just flexed sound on all joints this morning (vet was here as horse is being treated for Lyme)

We’re both scratching our heads on that one. Really - sound? At his age and with his job and his breeding?

It’s gotta be a freak of nature. Based on the rather unfortunate conformation and build of the other draft cross in the barn, I may not be as lucky with him.

I think they just started to become popular because of the PMU thing and it went on from there. They’re just grade horses; every once in a while you’ll get a freak that turns out to be extraordinary (a friend had one that went to GP after competing in eventing up to Intermediate) - but the deck is stacked against them. It’s too much of a crapshoot with a first generation cross.

(just in my experience)

I had a Hano mare before my first draft cross - and there is a difference. Even with my lowly skills dressage with the Hano was practically natural - with the draft cross, bless his heart - it’s hard work for both of us.

So - though I strongly dislike breed snobbery (or what I perceive to be snobbery) it doesn’t blind me to the validity of the arguments being made.

But I won’t budge on my opinion of Arabians - I think they’re greatly underappreciated as dressage horses. I stand by it!

@grayarabpony;3365466

No one’s sneering, except at Ambrey’s hard-headedness. :lol: I’ve seen individuals from many breeds that are incredible in dressage, including an Arabians and a few TBs (although I’ve seen many more TBs who were good movers but were too run and jump oriented to be straight dressage horses). They often don’t conform to their own breed’s standard and I think should be tried in sportshorse breeding in this country. That’s what the Europeans have done and continue to do.

This thread has gone off track because of quotes taken out of context or personal preferences ranted over. Overall I’m not thrilled with the idea of breeding TBs to drafts. Why is this such a problem for other people seems strange to me. Does it mean that I hate every draft cross out there? (rhetorical question, Ambrey) Maybe after taking part in this thread maybe I will! :lol:

I ride a non-traditional dressage horse myself. Do I think she’s going to the Olympics? No. If she had 3 super gaits and a more steady mind and was a hand taller and had a different rider, maybe she could. But she had enough talent to be fun to ride, mainly because of her trot. She’ll let me know when she’s topped out.

[AnotherRound]

Chrikey, Amway, you’re not even making sense. You’re rambling on and on and posting ad nauseum and defending yourself over nothing and no one cares what you think abo9ut each and every opinion here, and finally, at the end of this thread when everyone is trying to make some sense of the topic and get away from you, you just won’t stop.

Its not all about you!! Just stop yourself!

[Ambrey]

@AnotherRound;3365451

Man, Riley, that’s the sanest thing anyone has said on this thread. What with all the constant posting and exagerating by Ambreee about her riding and her misquoting others to make them sound more extreme than they were, and her insulting and laughing at and attempts to marginalize other people’s opinions, its been hard to a follow who has said what. Many have tried to say what you just did very well, and I happen to agree.

Claiming I’ve said something or made misrepresentations does not make it so. Maybe go back and see who insulted, marginalized, or laughed at first?

I believe it started with someone completely misreading one of my posts and making an incredibly snide remark that has since been deleted by the moderators.