Belgian Drafts for Dressage

[MyReality]

Here we go again.

I am with STF, unless a horse is bred for a discipline, his suitability for that discipline is limited. There will be surprises, and lines of horses that differ from the original intention of the breed. Breeding itself is generalization. When a person decides to breed a Belgian, what do they have in mind? If somewhere in the equation has dressage, then yes the suitability is high.

This applies to any breed, any discipline.

I have only worked with 2 Belgian crosses. I cannot stand their personalities. Very head strong, and stubborn, not smart. Laterally stiff like most other drafts crosses. However, both horses are bomb proof, tough (can carry quite a bit of weight and easy keepers), and steady hard workers… they have quite some opinions so a little bad riding doesn’t hurt them as they will find ways to deal with it (unfortunately good riding doesn’t necessarily improve them a great deal either). Both I rode are crossed with QH. One of them did eventually become a really good beginner schoolie.

2 horses doesn’t mean anything… but they sure made an impression on me.

Remember suitability usually means ease of use. Sure you can use a stock pot to fry eggs. But if you fry a lot of eggs, why use a stock pot… but it will make sense if you make a lot of stock, and seldom eggs. So it depends on the rider’s goals and ability, and access to suitable training.

To reiterate, I have a TB and a Clyde cross. Both of them are limited in dressage… I believe neither of them can sustain a lot of collected work, nor would the collected work be of high quality.

[Ambrey]

@rileyt;3351976

I haven’t seen anyone be “degrading and insulting about [any particular] horse that they’ve never seen, ridden, trained, etc.”

Oh, please. Do you really think that your message in your parody didn’t come through loud and clear? The voices of reason, calmly and quietly making their point, while the deluded draft owners try to insist that their horses are capable of something other than pulling a cart.

What do you know about my horse that makes you so sure that he isn’t capable? Ever seen him go? Ridden him? Didn’t think so.

[lewin]

[QUOTE=rileyt;3351477]
You don’t see more of them at FEI because MOST of them will never make it that far, and knowledgable dressage riders do not want to train a horse for 4+ years only to have it max out at 3rd or 4th level (if it even makes it that far).

Belgians (and many other drafties) are wonderful horses for LOTS of things… but if you’re choosing them as your primary dressage breed, I’d say you either aren’t very knowledgeable, or you want something entirely different than the standard dressage experience (at least as defined by the rules). That’s fine if you choose the latter. Most of us do this for a hobby, and above all we should ride a horse we enjoy.[/QUOTE]

I have no interest in doing things the hard way. And I am very interested in going up the levels and competing. I chose a draft because they bring different strengths to the table than a warmblood which mesh better with me. She came forward, intelligent, sound, and with a good rythm. I am willing to work on her gaits and her tendency to run. Of all the warmbloods I rode I never found one that meshed with my personality, not that they were bad horses at all, but I am not a Pro and could buy a horse for me instead of needing a horse with the gaits for top scores.

I do think riders should look at what strengths they need in a horse and what they can develop vs. buying a specific breed. For some riders that may be a warmblood, others a PRE, some a draft type, and others it will be a pony. And I am sure there are some ammy dressage riders out there for whom a belgian is the most appropriate horse for them. I am all for a breeding farm breeding the horses for dressage.

[Phyxius]

[QUOTE=lewin;3352378]

I do think riders should look at what strengths they need in a horse and what they can develop vs. buying a specific breed. [/QUOTE]

This is a terrific point. Once in a clinic Phillip Dutton mentioned how to pick the right horse for the/a rider, more specifically he was talking about in eventing, but I do believe that what he said can transfer over to dressage and really other disciplines as well.

He said to find a horse whose strengths help your weaknesses and whose weaknesses are your strengths. In eventing this could mean find a horse that’s a packer, honest abe on the cross country but maybe not the flashiest or purest horse for dressage. Or find a great dressage mount that may not be the scopiest on the jumping phases if dressage is not your strength.

I feel that the same is true within dressage. Get a horse that enchances your abilities and whose weaknesses you can support. I believe it was the OP, but I could be wrong who said it’s the journey that’s important. And, I agree. I’m so happy and feel so acomplished to know that I am the one who rides my horse. I don’t send him off to the trainer to learn “a” or to get “b” fixed. We learn together and that journey has made me a better rider and my horse a better mount and any horse who can do that is worth their weight in gold.

[Phyxius]

[QUOTE=rileyt;3351477]
You don’t see more of them at FEI because MOST of them will never make it that far, and knowledgable dressage riders do not want to train a horse for 4+ years only to have it max out at 3rd or 4th level (if it even makes it that far).

Belgians (and many other drafties) are wonderful horses for LOTS of things… but if you’re choosing them as your primary dressage breed, I’d say you either aren’t very knowledgeable, or you want something entirely different than the standard dressage experience (at least as defined by the rules). That’s fine if you choose the latter. Most of us do this for a hobby, and above all we should ride a horse we enjoy.[/QUOTE]

Riley,
Basically you’re saying that I, other posters on this thread, grand prix trainers including those at Kaiser dressage, and my own FEI level instructor are all rather stupid…or confused about what dressage is (as defined by the rules…please post this rule that you’re talking about).

And, I guess all of those RIDERS who max out at or below 3rd or 4th level are also not worth a dressage trainer’s time.:eek:

[Ambrey]

Phyxius, do you have photos or video? I’d love to see them. PM if you don’t feel like putting them up for public scrutiny.

I almost didn’t buy Smokey because he was “too drafty.” Now I love his draftiness, isn’t that funny? And although he’s an x, I consider him a draft because it’s the first thing most people see (his build in back is actually not very percheron-like, though). I love his big feet and his big roman nose. I did promise Lewin I’d clip his feathers, though, when my back is better

[Ambrey]

@MyReality;3352221

I have only worked with 2 Belgian crosses. I cannot stand their personalities. Very head strong, and stubborn, not smart. Laterally stiff like most other drafts crosses. However, both horses are bomb proof, tough (can carry quite a bit of weight and easy keepers), and steady hard workers… they have quite some opinions so a little bad riding doesn’t hurt them as they will find ways to deal with it (unfortunately good riding doesn’t necessarily improve them a great deal either). Both I rode are crossed with QH. One of them did eventually become a really good beginner schoolie.

This is exactly the opposite of my horse. He is laterally supple, can be a spookmonster, will do whatever he can to get out of hard work, and bad riding screws him up really fast (he learns very quickly, one way or the other!).

He also thinks he’s a shetland pony and wants to crawl in your lap for a hug.

So other draft people, where does the lateral stiffness thing come from? I see people say that it’s common, but my horse is certainly not laterally stiff (well, for his level of training he isn’t- he does bicker a bit about a bend to the right, but we’re working on it) and Lewin’s horse isn’t either.

[preferred]

[QUOTE=STF;3351996]
There was someone in our state that was bringing down PMU horses and advertising them as Canadian WB’s a few yrs back. Total bullsh**!!! If anyone really knows the Candi’s up there have built up an awesome string of top bloodlines of prove heritage. I hope people do take the time to realize the difference.[/QUOTE]

Be carefull about those types of sellers. An American Warmblood is an actual registry from the AWS and does qualify for USDF ALL BREEDS but the horse must pass testing/inspection. Sellers are using the american warmblood lingo loosely…ask for the papers. As far as Canadian, I don’t know of any canadian warmblood registry except the Canadian Cheval which has a large percentage of Fresian mixed in.

[Phyxius]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3352976]
Phyxius, do you have photos or video? I’d love to see them. PM if you don’t feel like putting them up for public scrutiny.

I almost didn’t buy Smokey because he was “too drafty.” Now I love his draftiness, isn’t that funny? And although he’s an x, I consider him a draft because it’s the first thing most people see (his build in back is actually not very percheron-like, though). I love his big feet and his big roman nose. I did promise Lewin I’d clip his feathers, though, when my back is better ;)[/QUOTE]

Don’t clip those feathers. :lol:

Here we are last year after the PVDA Ride For Life, a USDF liscensed show. I love, love the ribbons from this show. They have your place color + pink since it’s a breast cancer benefit. Those are firsts with blue, but I got a second place high pledge and it’s maroon and pink and I think I like it more, I know I’m a dork.
http://phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/169307140_w3Qtt-M.jpg

A friend showing him in a hunter class the first time ever riding him, with about a 10min “get-to-know-you” since she couldn’t take her own horse in.
http://phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/188288367_X4QjP-M.jpg

Just trotting around.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j51/phyxiusfoto/August/batrot3.jpg

I’ve got tons more and video, but I’ll PM you so that I’m not hijacking this thread anymore than I already am. If anyone else wants to see they’re welcome to PM me.

[Phyxius]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3352985]

So other draft people, where does the lateral stiffness thing come from? I see people say that it’s common, but my horse is certainly not laterally stiff (well, for his level of training he isn’t- he does bicker a bit about a bend to the right, but we’re working on it) and Lewin’s horse isn’t either.[/QUOTE]

My guy used to “appear” stiffer to the right, but we’ve diagnosed the problem as a weak lefthind. The right lead is more difficult because of this as are some lateral moves that require more PUSH or step under from the left hind. This doesn’t appear to be a pain issue more of a “it’s not as strong, I won’t work as hard” issue. Courtney King had a great article in Dressage Today about patience being a virtue, to a point. I allowed him to not work as hard with the left hind because it WAS harder for him. And, that’s the OPPOSITE of what I should have been doing. No longer is this an excuse and our cross training with jumping has really helped strengthen not just the left hind, but his hind end in generally and he’s getting much more even. (You’ll see in the videos, Amberly).

[Ambrey]

@preferred;3353010

Be carefull about those types of sellers. An American Warmblood is an actual registry from the AWS and does qualify for USDF ALL BREEDS but the horse must pass testing/inspection. Sellers are using the american warmblood lingo loosely…ask for the papers. As far as Canadian, I don’t know of any canadian warmblood registry except the Canadian Cheval which has a large percentage of Fresian mixed in.

True dat. A draft cross can qualify for AWS with qualifying scores in training level, but breeding approvals require inspections and such. Many of the horses advertised as American Warmbloods are neither AWS (the more open registry) nor AWR (which is more for european type warmbloods).

[Ambrey]

@Phyxius;3353021

I allowed him to not work as hard with the left hind because it WAS harder for him. And, that’s the OPPOSITE of what I should have been doing. No longer is this an excuse and our cross training with jumping has really helped strengthen not just the left hind, but his hind end in generally and he’s getting much more even. (You’ll see in the videos, Amberly).

His jumping is so cool Smokey likes to jump, but I’m a “4 feet on the ground” type person.

Smokey does need much more physical training, though. I’ve started doing more longing in side reins as my stamina improves, and it should help (when he’s not galloping around like an idiot like he was yesterday :uhoh:. 1500+ lbs of animal careening on the end of a string is always fun! Like a really big kite about to go airborn). We’ve been doing a lot of trot/canter/trot transitions on longe for strength.

[Donella]

2 horses doesn’t mean anything… but they sure made an impression on me.

Interesting. I have trained three. One of mine is my moms CDE horse. Cool horse for driving…she does awesome with her. However, she cannot sit or collect to any real degree under saddle. Canter is impossible and she is very belligerant if you insist (its just too hard and she is not a tryer). The others we such nice amateur all around basic horses, really quiet, sturdy ect. But wow, talk about bullheaded. All were the same cross as you speak of. I think it comes from the Belgian as I have worked with a number of QHs and never noticed this sort of bullheadedness.

Anyways, I am done with the thread. STF, there is no point. Some people don’t get the form to function thing and how it relates to ease of work and like most breed threads on this board, when someone asks a general question there are always people who like to dig around for the exception to the rule to try and “prove” something about the entire breed as a whole (and not surprisingly, these are always the people who are significantly biased towards this breed).

So, Yes, Belgian drafts are highly suited to competative dressage and it really is just breed predjudices that have kept them from the spotlight:winkgrin: You want a horse totally suited to collection…then yes, buy something that was bred to perform the antithesis of collection with ease. Makes sense.

[Vesper_Sparrow]

[QUOTE=preferred;3353010]
Be carefull about those types of sellers. An American Warmblood is an actual registry from the AWS and does qualify for USDF ALL BREEDS but the horse must pass testing/inspection. Sellers are using the american warmblood lingo loosely…ask for the papers. As far as Canadian, I don’t know of any canadian warmblood registry except the Canadian Cheval which has a large percentage of Fresian mixed in.[/QUOTE]

There is the Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders Association (CWHBA) (also the Canadian Sport Horse Association if I’ve got the name right but I don’t know if that qualifies as a warmblood registry). Wouldn’t these be considered registries since they do inspections… They certainly aren’t in existence to register PMU foals.

I also haven’t heard of Canadian Chevals containing a lot of Friesian blood. Maybe Leena could enlighten us.

[rileyt]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3352363]
Oh, please. Do you really think that your message in your parody didn’t come through loud and clear? The voices of reason, calmly and quietly making their point, while the deluded draft owners try to insist that their horses are capable of something other than pulling a cart.

What do you know about my horse that makes you so sure that he isn’t capable? Ever seen him go? Ridden him? Didn’t think so.[/QUOTE]

Ambrey, if you think YOUR PARTICULAR HORSE has anything to do with this conversation (or the comments I made above), then we are talking at cross purposes and there’s no use continuing. If you read what I wrote, I conceded that the occasional Belgain Draft might even get to GP and be competitive. For all I know that could be YOUR HORSE. He might be lovely.

Try to read for comprehension dear.

[rileyt]

[QUOTE=lewin;3352378]
I have no interest in doing things the hard way. And I am very interested in going up the levels and competing. I chose a draft because they bring different strengths to the table than a warmblood which mesh better with me. She came forward, intelligent, sound, and with a good rythm. I am willing to work on her gaits and her tendency to run. Of all the warmbloods I rode I never found one that meshed with my personality, not that they were bad horses at all, but I am not a Pro and could buy a horse for me instead of needing a horse with the gaits for top scores.

I do think riders should look at what strengths they need in a horse and what they can develop vs. buying a specific breed. For some riders that may be a warmblood, others a PRE, some a draft type, and others it will be a pony. And I am sure there are some ammy dressage riders out there for whom a belgian is the most appropriate horse for them. I am all for a breeding farm breeding the horses for dressage.[/QUOTE]

Lewin, I think that is a perfectly appropriate reason to buy a Belgian Draft for your dressage career. You’re not deluding yourself about your horse’s strengths… just making an informed decision that his weaknesses don’t particularly concern you, and his strengths are what you are looking for.

[rileyt]

[QUOTE=Phyxius;3352927]
Riley,
Basically you’re saying that I, other posters on this thread, grand prix trainers including those at Kaiser dressage, and my own FEI level instructor are all rather stupid…or confused about what dressage is (as defined by the rules…please post this rule that you’re talking about).

And, I guess all of those RIDERS who max out at or below 3rd or 4th level are also not worth a dressage trainer’s time.:eek:[/QUOTE]

The “rules” I’m referring to are those found in the tests. The ones that concern what is required (or hoped for) in each movement. Many of them involve not only things like “rhythm” (which Drafties probably do just fine), but also swing through the back, carrying power, etc. I think those are things that MOST drafties struggle with.

And no, I really didn’t say that the trainers at Kaiser are stupid. I fully recognize that most warmbloods won’t make it to GP EITHER (due to their own physical limitations, or the poor riding/training they receive). But do you doubt the percentage is higher?

If you took 100 Belgian Draft foals, and 100 Hannoverian foals, and put them all in training with Steffan Peters… (or even your beloved trainer, or someone who specializes in drafties), do you really think you’d see more of the Belgian group get to Grand Prix? Do you? Because that is ALL that I’m saying.

[Evalee_Hunter]

[QUOTE=preferred;3353010]
. . . . As far as Canadian, I don’t know of any canadian warmblood registry except the Canadian Cheval which has a large percentage of Fresian mixed in.[/QUOTE]

Could you please provide the source of information for that statement? I think Canadian Cheval breeders would probably take offense at hearing that.

[QUOTE=Vesper Sparrow;3353181]There is the Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders Association (CWHBA) (also the Canadian Sport Horse Association if I’ve got the name right but I don’t know if that qualifies as a warmblood registry). Wouldn’t these be considered registries since they do inspections… They certainly aren’t in existence to register PMU foals.

I also haven’t heard of Canadian Chevals containing a lot of Friesian blood. Maybe Leena could enlighten us.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you - I don’t know where preferred got that information.

[Phyxius]

[QUOTE=rileyt;3353245]
The “rules” I’m referring to are those found in the tests. The ones that concern what is required (or hoped for) in each movement. Many of them involve not only things like “rhythm” (which Drafties probably do just fine), but also swing through the back, carrying power, etc. I think those are things that MOST drafties struggle with.

And no, I really didn’t say that the trainers at Kaiser are stupid. I fully recognize that most warmbloods won’t make it to GP EITHER (due to their own physical limitations, or the poor riding/training they receive). But do you doubt the percentage is higher?

If you took 100 Belgian Draft foals, and 100 Hannoverian foals, and put them all in training with Steffan Peters… (or even your beloved trainer, or someone who specializes in drafties), do you really think you’d see more of the Belgian group get to Grand Prix? Do you? Because that is ALL that I’m saying.[/QUOTE]

I keep hearing the drafts can’t “sit” now they have no swing thorough the back. I can understand if someone says they have a naturally large shoulder and need to WORK to build a strong hindend. But, really it’s NOT that hard and it’s not only drafts that have this. QHs as a stereotype have large rears, but are often built downhill, can the over come that, sure! To me it’s even easier to fix something that’s mostly muscular.

I wouldn’t mind people saying something about draft horses that was actually true like…in general they don’t do well in high heat and humidity. Or, in general they aren’t the most sensitive horses. Or, in general even if they aren’t heavy in your hand or on the forehand their physical appearance can make them LOOK like they are, etc. But I keep reading the same wrong assumptions over and over and over and it makes me wonder if the people saying these things hav ever ridden a draft horse with dressage training. Take a selection of young warmbloods while many will have natural extention…how many have natural collection? Unh-huh. Take a selection of young andalusians, many will have natural collection but not natural extention. Can each be taught to do the other with proper dressage training. Yes. Take a selection of young draft horses. Opposed to what so many people here think they’re MORE likely to have natural collection than they are to have natural extention, but it can be developed with proper training.

My problem is NOT people saying a certain horse is not the most likely candidate for a certain job. My problem is people saying that for the most part if your intention is to attempt to teach a horse how to do a certain job you can only succeed if you buy “this” horse and that your wasting your time, money, and energy if you even think of trying it with “that” horse.

Your last paragraph I completely agree with. Yes, if you take an equal number of hann. and an equal number of belgians I agree that you’ll get more upper level prospects from the hann. but I also don’t think the number of “unworthy” belgians would be 99 as most people tend to imply. THAT is all I’m saying.

[STF]

@preferred;3353010

Be carefull about those types of sellers. An American Warmblood is an actual registry from the AWS and does qualify for USDF ALL BREEDS but the horse must pass testing/inspection. Sellers are using the american warmblood lingo loosely…ask for the papers. As far as Canadian, I don’t know of any canadian warmblood registry except the Canadian Cheval which has a large percentage of Fresian mixed in.

Yes, I know. Im VERY well versed on registries, rules and such, except tofr Canadian Cheval, dont know them.

Re: Another pet peeve of mine re: Belgian WB’s
I own a Belgian Warmblood Stallion -
http://spindletopfarm.net/puerto.htm

I have had so many people THINK Im talking about a Beglian Draft when I talk about him. I even had him at the clinic one day a few yrs ago and someone said to me… “He dont look like no draft horse!” (TX wonders!)
I looked over and said…“ya think!!”
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
It worries me that some non edcuated buyers (most are not breed registry savvy) see our ads and think were selling draft crosses. Just chaps my big ass!