i am only a silly h/j person, but don’t steroids impede healing? anyway, a horse is a horse, and BB was sound as a bell at the finish… curl is an amazing farrier, and the foot was stable. i think BB was Simply Tired.
[QUOTE=farprof;3273262]
I don’t think we should forget George Washington who broke down in the stretch at the Breeders Cup Classic in Monmouth last fall and was euthanized on the track.
I though Kent did the right thing in pulling BB up. BB didn’t look right to me and although I am not saying he looked lame; it did look like something was wrong.
It was a fairly slow race with the first half mile in 48 and change and the final time 2:29.65. Da’Tara did a nice job but he is not Secratariat who did it in 2:24 even.[/QUOTE]
Come on why in god’s green earth mention GW at all in the context of yesterday’s race other then to bash racing?
Da’Tara doesn’t have to be Secretariat. He’s just a horse doing his job, jeeze! So what if we didn’t see 2:24 for a final time. There never will be another horse that touches that time.
If anyone looks at the images of Kent pulling up and thinks he looks like he’s lame or something is wrong you simply haven’t seen a race horse eased before. The horse will want to run with the rest of the field and you the jockey are saying ‘no’, of course there will be a struggle. I think Kent was doing a bit of acting myself with the way he eased. Had he just continued to ride (sans any whip or other form of encouragement) there would not have been any change in the outcome.
Sure Kent did the right thing - the horse was a non-factor by the last turn so you save your horse for the next race. I won’t call the guy a hero or giving him any special kudos for doing a “wow” job. Even had he gone to whip again and again there is no way BB would’ve finish any better. He was done.
If you want to praise a jockey for knowing something was wrong and taking the corrective action in the Belmont look at the late Chris Antley on Charismatic (1998). What Kent did and Chris did are two vastly different things, so don’t cheapen the term ‘hero’ by mixing the two.
[QUOTE=Glimmerglass;3273323]
If anyone looks at the images of Kent pulling up and thinks he looks like he’s lame or something is wrong you simply haven’t seen a race horse eased before. The horse will want to run with the rest of the field and you the jockey are saying ‘no’, of course there will be a struggle. I think Kent was doing a bit of acting myself with the way he eased. Had he just continued to ride (sans any whip or other form of encouragement) there would not have been any change in the outcome.
.[/QUOTE]
I was not referring to how the horse looked when he was being pulled up. I was referring, as I said in my posts, to how he looked at the walk as he was being cooled out. He was off on the left front. I have since gone back and looked at it again on TIVO. Maybe he shook it off after, but there is no doubt in my mind that that horse was off on that foot while being cooled out. It is plain as day on the tapes.
Regarding whether the the outcome would have been any different had KD not eased up – of course the outcome would have been different – for the horse’s racing record. As I am sure you are aware, because BB was eased up, he isn’t given a beyer score, and that poor finish will not affect his racing stats as it would if he had continued on and finished with the rest of the field.
If they find nothing wrong with BB, it could be possible that the Belmont performance was a result of the horse not being ready for the race. He raced just like his last workout. Rank and then tired. Think about it. We all thought he could win on his C game. Maybe we were wrong and even the best need to be prepared. One or 2 workouts and one easy race in 5 weeks (was it 1 or 2?). Perhaps a blowout the morning of would have helped.
Bottom line is, unless they find something, we’ll never know. I thought the 1 hole would be a problem but when I saw the other winners from the 1, I figured, well, the great ones could do it. I don’t think the other riders did anything to BB that lost him the race. Kent had the race SO set in his mind that he didn’t seem to adjust. I don’t think he rode the perfect race.
And I buy the coming off of steroids theory too. Although I admit to not know about that since I’ve never used steroids, but it makes sense after what you hear about the yearlings coming out of a sale. Maybe it was a combination of that and what I said above.
Also, every single ‘nice’ horse this year has tanked at least once. Maybe this was just BB’s time.
Interesting that both 1.5 mile races were won on the lead.
As for pulling him up, I am not so sure I agree with that since he didnt appear hurt. I think Kent panicked. Interestingly, I see BB is listed as DID NOT FINISH. I just want to qualify that this is all assuming BB is ok. He could come out of this and pull a Spectacular Bid and show he is much the best. Yeah, that won’t happen. After the Dutrow article, I too sense a Smarty send off which will unfortunately put BB in the same category as Smarty-a flash in the pan.
Congratulations Zito team. He didn’t spoil anything as somebody noted above. Time to move on. It’s over.
[QUOTE=DLee;3272980]
Do you think a jockey on BB in the Belmont is under so much scrutiny that it would affect his decision whether to push for home or not? I’m not sure I’ve ever heard a jockey give up just because ‘he had no horse’, especially in such a huge race, I mean he might have been third… who knows? But with all of the uproar with whip usage, Eight Belles, etc leading up to this, I feel like he was really under the microscope.[/QUOTE]
Well, if this IS the case…at least something good came out of her death…make the rest of them think about what the horse is trying to tell them. I agree with the eventer who posted, he should be a role model for some of the eventers who push their horse come hell or high water and the horse suffers the consequences.
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3273328]
I was not referring to how the horse looked when he was being pulled up. I was referring, as I said in my posts, to how he looked at the walk as he was being cooled out. He was off on the left front. I have since gone back and looked at it again on TIVO. Maybe he shook it off after, but there is no doubt in my mind that that horse was off on that foot while being cooled out. It is plain as day on the tapes.
Regarding whether the the outcome would have been any different had KD not eased up – of course the outcome would have been different – for the horse’s racing record. As I am sure you are aware, because BB was eased up, he isn’t given a beyer score, and that poor finish will not affect his racing stats as it would if he had continued on and finished with the rest of the field.[/QUOTE]
I agree…I was thinking something was wrong when he started swapping leads…as if something was bothering him. I’m no racing expert, I just own a TB. :lol: But he did look off to me at the walk as well.
I think that horse is magnificant…but the trainer spoiled it for me, I was hoping for an upset (I admit it) just to shut the pompous guy up.
I agree
[QUOTE=Glimmerglass;3273323]
Come on why in god’s green earth mention GW at all in the context of yesterday’s race other then to bash racing?
Da’Tara doesn’t have to be Secretariat. He’s just a horse doing his job, jeeze! So what if we didn’t see 2:24 for a final time. There never will be another horse that touches that time.
If anyone looks at the images of Kent pulling up and thinks he looks like he’s lame or something is wrong you simply haven’t seen a race horse eased before. The horse will want to run with the rest of the field and you the jockey are saying ‘no’, of course there will be a struggle. I think Kent was doing a bit of acting myself with the way he eased. Had he just continued to ride (sans any whip or other form of encouragement) there would not have been any change in the outcome.
Sure Kent did the right thing - the horse was a non-factor by the last turn so you save your horse for the next race. I won’t call the guy a hero or giving him any special kudos for doing a “wow” job. Even had he gone to whip again and again there is no way BB would’ve finish any better. He was done.
If you want to praise a jockey for knowing something was wrong and taking the corrective action in the Belmont look at the late Chris Antley on Charismatic (1998). What Kent did and Chris did are two vastly different things, so don’t cheapen the term ‘hero’ by mixing the two.[/QUOTE]
I agree with Glimmerglass, about heroes, but I do think the horse should have been galloped out yesterday as there was nothing wrong with him, except he was not going to win. He could have ridden out the race without whipping instead of pulling him back. well we’ll see if he races again and how he races and what drugs he races on.
right on
[QUOTE=Pronzini;3273122]
I’m probably in the minority here but I thought Kent’s ride was horrendous. I haven’t watched the replay but as I recall he fought with Big Brown early, strangled him down on a slow pace and wheeled a horse from the 1 hole to the outside on the turn. Then after driving him all over the track, he asks him for run. Brown isn’t the most seasoned horse and perhaps he thought “To hell with it!” at this point. Then Desormeaux does what he’s notorious for when he’s not in the position to win and he didn’t persevere with the horse. I don’t remember him actually pulling one up but the whole “If I can’t win, I won’t try” is classic Desormeaux and it’s a big part of the reason he left California. Trainers and owners just got fed up.
It should be noted that I’m sure this race no one will say anything, but when a prohibitive favorite gets pulled up or fails to be persevered with, there can be a steward’s inquiry. “I didn’t have any horse” is generally not an acceptable excuse since in some bets wagers go out to 5th place.
On another note, I talked to my racing trainer yesterday and he noticed that Big Brown looked almost too dry in the paddock considering the conditions. While you don’t want them completely washed out, a little sweat is normal and expected. Big Brown had a small amount between his legs but none on his neck. Could that have made a difference?
Myself, I suspect the interrupted training, the lack of seasoning, the premature coronation of the colt by the connections who really thought he was Man O’War and could overcome everything and Desormeaux’ poor ride all conspired against him yesterday.
What a shame.[/QUOTE]
you are so right. people should read your post again. Would this jockey had pulled up another horse? nope, he’d have whipped him all the way to the finish, again as wrong, or worse, than pulling him up. better to ride out the race w/o whipping and finish, like I’ve seen some jockeys do when they had “no horse”. class is class, and it wasn’t shown by anyone yesterday except Zito and his people.
[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;3273393]
you are so right. people should read your post again. Would this jockey had pulled up another horse? nope, he’d have whipped him all the way to the finish, again as wrong, or worse, than pulling him up. better to ride out the race w/o whipping and finish, like I’ve seen some jockeys do when they had “no horse”. class is class, and it wasn’t shown by anyone yesterday except Zito and his people.[/QUOTE]
I really dont know how in the world you would know what Kent would or wouldnt do… amazing.
are horses like humans?
[QUOTE=J. Turner;3272776]
Are there fertility issue linked to equines and steroid use? Maybe with the financial agreement w/ Three Chimneys they wrote in a no steroid clause? Just grasping at straws …[/QUOTE]
in human studies, the steroids have shrunkthe gonads. don’t know about fertility issues as my friends who took them for weight lifting didn’t have kids, hmmmm.
but they do make you eat like crazy, I’ve had 2 dogs on steroids for allergies, and when they were taken off of them, they never lost the weight or muscle mass.
and then there’s the 'roid rage, that the “rasslers” have, and I saw in one dog. steroids make some aggressive.
so all the articles I’ve read have been about the negative effects of steroids on humans, except for some articles on steroids causing laminitis in horses.
lack of seasoning
Lack of seasoning is another way of saying the horse hadn’t raced enough for anyone to really know what to expect. The few races BB has been in have been widely spaced, I think, because of his hoof problems. I don’t think he ever has been asked to race this much, so how could anyone know how he’d handle it? And how would the trainer know how to maintain this horse’s edge? He hasn’t had to do it. And how could he do that with the limitations placed on him since the Preakness? The difference in this case was the trainer liked to put on a show of superiority, and everyone bought it.
This was the case regardless of the steroids or heat.
I was wondering about that, as I was certain he never went past the finish line, yet everyone keeps saying he finished last. Even the TV had him listed as last.
If the horse was ridden out and finishes he has a “3rd”, “4th”, “5th”, “6th” or whatever on his race record. But this way he has a “DNF” on there. A little easier to toss that (“there obviously must have been something wrong”), esp if he retires without racing again.
In some racing jurisdictions KD would have some explaining to do to the stewards, BB was not going to win, but he could have finished in the placings.
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;3273422]
I was wondering about that, as I was certain he never went past the finish line, yet everyone keeps saying he finished last. Even the TV had him listed as last.
If the horse was ridden out and finishes he has a “3rd”, “4th”, “5th”, “6th” or whatever on his race record. But this way he has a “DNF” on there. ].[/QUOTE]
Bingo. As I said, it won’t affect his racing stats.
[QUOTE=J. Turner;3272776]
Are there fertility issue linked to equines and steroid use? Maybe with the financial agreement w/ Three Chimneys they wrote in a no steroid clause? Just grasping at straws …[/QUOTE]
Mr Akro and I visited the National Stud in England a few years ago. I don’t know how true it is but, during the tour, our guide told us that the people there thought that Secretariat’s fertility problems during his first year at stud were steroid related.
He looked fine to me. Did look a little off behind to me on tv after the Derby, but obviously, I was wrong about that. And you are wrong about your assessment, according to the vets who were on site and checked him out. I’ll trust a hands on exam over your assessment or mine from tv, any day.
thanks for posting this
[QUOTE=JulieMontgomery;3272501]
but I thought this column was interesting …
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/07/opinion/07fornatale.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin
interesting article, thank you for posting it. nice to know that those of us who think dutrow is a creep are right,. Wonder what all those past drug violations were, including the 2 in january, and how much has gotten past the racing commission. If they caught him that many times, how many times has he gotten away with doping? food for thought.
[QUOTE=Beverley;3273456]
He looked fine to me. Did look a little off behind to me on tv after the Derby, but obviously, I was wrong about that. And you are wrong about your assessment, according to the vets who were on site and checked him out. I’ll trust a hands on exam over your assessment or mine from tv, any day.[/QUOTE]
Dr. Bramlage was quoted before the horse was being cooled out, the moment I was referring to. I have a segment on tape where the horse is not walking sound. I really don’t care what you think about that. I am not blind.
If anyone thinks we will ever know the real truth, sadly mistaken. :no: Could have been a number of factors. The biggest, he was running steriod free. Heat and humidity, no energy= loss. Kent knew he didn’t have the same horse. Hard not to. No sweating, all others, slightly or lathered. Not happy about going to the gate. It couldn’t have been more up in lights, “I’m not running today” blinking over this horse.
You wonder, if in fact he did not cross the finish, which no one seems to have seen, whether this was the game plan. No horse, couldn’t get him to run, pull him up and don’t cross the finish line. His stats will never show him not winning a race. The media did however place him last.
Glimmer, as always, right on the money!!!
Akro - I heard the same thing about Secretariat and steroids and fertility issues.
It was a long time ago - but I remember being a bit taken aback that he had run on steroids. Back then - what steroids were being used? Winstrol? Here again - those he ran against - were they all on steroids? Lots to think about …
