[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3273852]
Geeze
What? He was being pulled up, but he wanted to keep going. What do you expect?
Jeez, you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t. If he hadn’t pulled him up, and if he went on to injure himself, people would be crying foul. He eases him up, because he thinks his horse might be off, and people are crying foul. Jesus.
I think this guy got it right; http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/mark_beech/06/07/belmont.reax/index.html?bcnn=yes
He just wasn’t ready and you can only blame Dutrow for that!
Just curious…
We were discussing this today and wondered what you all might think of it…
Do you think there’s any merit to the idea that it bodes better for BB to have been pulled up and more deliberately run last than for KD to have continued to let him run…maybe not really gotten after him but at least let him continue to run…and finish legitimately last? I mean everyone will agree he’s a heck of a nice horse, but does it “look better” to lose dramatically than just to flat out get beat?
I guess what I mean is, in terms of BB’s value, does it look better to try to finish well, or be pulled up when it’s apparent he’s NOT going to finish well?
I’m of the personal opinion that it certainly wouldn’t have killed the horse to keep running. There was nothing apparently wrong with him. That being said, I can certainly sympathize with KD’s decision to stop with him…BUT, every horse has a bad day and it doesn’t necessarily mean catastrophe. IMO (and I am basing this really on only his last few races…I didn’t see any of his races prior to the Florida Derby) I thought it was the first time BB didn’t really get his own way, got into a little traffic, and being a little green and maybe not quite the lionhearted type, said “the heck with this; this is NOT what I signed up for” and spit the bit.
[QUOTE=Nikki^;3273719]
This is a touching photo:
Big Brown’s owner Michael Iavarone hugs Big Brown after the 140th Belmont Stakes horse race at Belmont Park in Elmont, N.Y., on Saturday, [/QUOTE]
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:Knowing that there were photographers everywhere, as Ivarone no doubt did, it makes me want to gag ( kind of like Big Brown appears to be doing, in the photo…!!) Spare me, please…
(and wow, I don’t think I’ve yet seen a side shot standing still of him…those are some looooonnnng pasterns on that boy…reminds me of a couple that have had some very tragic breakdowns…scary)
[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;3273411]
in human studies, the steroids have shrunkthe gonads. don’t know about fertility issues as my friends who took them for weight lifting didn’t have kids, hmmmm.
but they do make you eat like crazy, I’ve had 2 dogs on steroids for allergies, and when they were taken off of them, they never lost the weight or muscle mass.
and then there’s the 'roid rage, that the “rasslers” have, and I saw in one dog. steroids make some aggressive.
so all the articles I’ve read have been about the negative effects of steroids on humans, except for some articles on steroids causing laminitis in horses.[/QUOTE]
Your dogs were likely on corticosteroids for their allergies, BB was getting an anabolic steriod (probably as was your weight lifter friends). They are completely different things. Corticosteriods don’t increase muscle mass, anabolic steriods do.
A2 - you found some interesting photos. The three shown - quite ugly…
I looked at a few more.
14 - behind gate at start - is there really a man standing inside the rail? (for starters…)
64 - how far outside (wide) BB was
67, 69, 74, 82 - out of gate
92 - don’t remember - something
[QUOTE=kcmel;3272974]
I like those names. Now, Lil E Tee, that would have been an embarassing name for TC winner (yes, before someone tells me the obvious, I know he didn’t win the Preakness). Smarty Jones also likely offended the racing gods with his name.[/QUOTE]
OT: I was so happy that Pat Day finally got his Derby…and so sad he had to do it on a horse with a name like that! And yeah, Smarty Jones and Funny Cide probably both had bad name jinxes.
Though that doesn’t explain Omaha.
Regarding steroids: steroids given for allergies are corticosteroids. Totally different drug. Those are the ones that increase appetite and cause weight gain, bloating, sleeplesness, irregular heartbeat, and in extreme cases stroke, heart attack, and psychotic episodes. They can cause outbursts, or more like the switch between your brain and what comes out your mouth is permanently in the open position. There was confusion about this among figure-skating fans when Irina Slutskaia was on prednisone for an autoimmune illness. Some people didn’t get that those are not the kind of steroids that give you an athletic advantage. Having been on high-dose prednisone myself, I can say it does the exact opposite. You might want to kill someone, but that’s only if you can drag yourself out of bed to do it.
[QUOTE=Big_Tag;3273924]
We were discussing this today and wondered what you all might think of it…
Do you think there’s any merit to the idea that it bodes better for BB to have been pulled up and more deliberately run last than for KD to have continued to let him run…maybe not really gotten after him but at least let him continue to run…and finish legitimately last? I mean everyone will agree he’s a heck of a nice horse, but does it “look better” to lose dramatically than just to flat out get beat?
I guess what I mean is, in terms of BB’s value, does it look better to try to finish well, or be pulled up when it’s apparent he’s NOT going to finish well?
I’m of the personal opinion that it certainly wouldn’t have killed the horse to keep running. There was nothing apparently wrong with him. That being said, I can certainly sympathize with KD’s decision to stop with him…BUT, every horse has a bad day and it doesn’t necessarily mean catastrophe. IMO (and I am basing this really on only his last few races…I didn’t see any of his races prior to the Florida Derby) I thought it was the first time BB didn’t really get his own way, got into a little traffic, and being a little green and maybe not quite the lionhearted type, said “the heck with this; this is NOT what I signed up for” and spit the bit.[/QUOTE]
He seems to be fine, true, but how was KD to know that at the time? Maybe he should have finished as strongly as he could, but hindsight is always 20/20. Frankly, if no funny business was going on (meaning he really did feel the horse was off), then I feel for KD. He’s probably feeling pretty crummy today.
thanks
[QUOTE=SuperOtto;3273974]
Your dogs were likely on corticosteroids for their allergies, BB was getting an anabolic steriod (probably as was your weight lifter friends). They are completely different things. Corticosteriods don’t increase muscle mass, anabolic steriods do.[/QUOTE]
yep the guys, weightlifters all, did get the other type of steroids. thanks for pointing that out.
I think it is all speculation, but interesting discussion. Personally, I still think Big Brown is a very special horse and that all of the wrong chips just fell for this race. Between not having the prep he needed, the footing and the heat, his lack of experience, and the terrible ride, he just didn’t have a chance. I do think that Kent could have ridden the race smarter, but he is human and we all make mistakes.
I, too, noticed the lack of sweating on his neck and flanks before the race and wondered about it. One of ours is a non-sweater and lathers between his legs and against tack but does not sweat on his neck or chest. He gets hot and fatigued very quickly.
Agreed. None of us was on that horse. We can’t be second guessing Kent’s ride or decisions.
[quote=grayarabs;3273992]
A2 - you found some interesting photos. The three shown - quite ugly…
I looked at a few more.
14 - behind gate at start - is there really a man standing inside the rail? (for starters…)
I believe that that is the starter…
What mbarrett said … all except for that last paragraph.
In my opinion, Man o’ War is Big Red.
Well that is a new one for me. Someone standing on the track - facing the horses - on the rail - what - a 100 feet from the starting gates? I never noticed that before.
That is common? THAT was the starter? FWIW - which means nothing - looking at photo 14 - from the horse’s point of view - ie BB - he breaks closest to the rail - and sees a man standing in his lane - and moves off to his right. I am sure I am wrong - but that is what I thought looking at that photo.
e don’tkno wthis for a fact.
typosI’m of the personal opinion that it certainly wouldn’t have killed the horse to keep running. an exhausted horse can easily “unload” :yes:on tired legs and break:eek: down
Ive tried to read the popsts in this thread, so if Im repeating opinions already stated–mea culpa!
For me, BB has run two outstanding races–and after each of them, he looked as though he was ready to run again!
In the Belmont, he looked all right until the top of the stretch and then…he became a different horse. I thought I saw him swap leads a few times, I waited–with Kent D <g> for that patented WHOOSH! when he turns on the secret grear…and then, instead, time stood still for almost a second and I thought:
Ruh-Roh!
and then thought how very wise of Kent D. to pull him up.
Because the alternative scenarios are just…unbearable.
When BB was then standing still after the race, the first thing I thought of was–ach! the heat got to him, he almost looks as though he is having a mild tying-up reaction! And I continued to think that when he moved off.
In any case–I think something went wrong. Maybe momentary, and I certainly hope not lasting…but something went wrong.
No,no real ideas what: the trailer/plane trip(s) for the commercials? The number of times they monkeyed with his hooves, lacing and all that–Im guessing tranqs each time; getting the delicate electrolyte balance a little bit wrong, as happens for event horses and esp. endurance horses?
No idea.
But the horse that Kent D. jumped off of, looked at critically, gave a pat as he turned to weigh out…that was not the same horse I saw in the first two races.
ANd no, I do not think the Belmont is that much longer a race. BB went wrong long before the distance changed dramatically longer from the previous races.
just addinhg my two cents while waiting for The Official Dutrow Statement<g>
Yes, his stats will show that he did not win a race. Before the Belmont, his line was
5 - 5 - 0 - 0
Now his line is
6 - 5 - 0- -0
He has run in 6 races, won five and run unplaced in 1. What will not be know is where he could have finished had he tried. Yes, he crossed the finish line, but as soon as Kent began to pull him up at the top of the stretch, and take him out of competition, he was considered “eased”. I am not sure what the difference is between “eased” and “DNF”. It might be how many lengths there are behind the horse in front of the last horse and the eased horse. Or it could be a regional nomenclature.
Whatever. The chart of the race shows that he was a DNF at the top of the stretch.
I don’t buy into the argument that he was not fit enough to run the distance of the Belmont because of lost training etc. I would agree with that if he “hit the wall” in mid stretch and let the field engulf him while he staggered home. But he never got that far. He certainly was in good enough condition to run a mile, and yesterday he didn’t.
To whoever said that he was a horse who could come from off the pace, – true. But he had ALWAYS come from off the pace on the outside. He had NEVER gotten sand kicked in his face. Desormeaux’s strategy from the one hole was to get him a clear path into the first turn so he would not have sand in his face this time either.
Because he collapsed behind coming out of the gate, and missed the break, he was off 1/2 a stride slow and had to be hustled if he was going to have a hope of establishing that position.
So KD hustled him. Only to find that he was still too late to get a clear spot on the rail. That is when he had to take up. BB had never had to been taken up before, never had sand in his face, never been started and then stopped. He was PISSED.
Yet a good horse should have, could have, would have put it behind him once KD got him clear.
The jockey to the inside did some good race riding, floating BB out 7 wide. That’s what jockeys do with the big favorite.
I agree with the steroids, anhidrosis not his day combo theory. Did anyone see the tape of him in his stall today? God he was either 100% exhausted or totally depressed. He was standing facing the door, but in the back corner, with his head down, looking totally dejected.
Of course, his trainer, Dutrow, had not shown up at the barn and it was after 10am… So maybe he was just out of sorts because his routine was thrown off.
What a jerk. Not to come out to check on your horse first thing in the morning. ANY other trainer in the world would have been out there at 5 am going over him. Where the eff was Dutrow? Letting other people take care of BB… The man is scum…
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;3274380]
I agree with the steroids, anhidrosis not his day combo theory. Did anyone see the tape of him in his stall today? God he was either 100% exhausted or totally depressed. He was standing facing the door, but in the back corner, with his head down, looking totally dejected.[/QUOTE]
Is it on the internet anywhere? 
I haven’t read all the posts since the race so I’m sorry if I’m repeating anyone with my post.
Re: pulling up: I’ve seen this in jumping races and I think it’s fine, ceretainly better for the horse than running a race if he’s so far out of it. I wonder, however, how this would sit with those who wager should it become more common in flat racing.
Re Big Brown and anabolic steroids: I was REALLY surprized to hear them say that Big Brown had been taken off of steroids for the Belmont and not surprized to see him run poorly as a result. Horses who are suddenly dropped off of anabolic steroids go through withdrawal and really crash. I’ve seen it happen again and again to rescue tbs and ottbs and I thought this was common knowledge. Now I wonder if those trainers who don’t actively seek information about the meds they give their horses and also don’t follow their horses after they stop racing just never pick up this information. I even wonder if some vets out there are unaware how dramatic withdrawal can be these horses.
[QUOTE=Huntertwo;3273859]
Either he was protecting B.B. or myself being a skeptic, perhaps Dutrow told Kent to pull up B.B. if he was in the postion of losing, so big mouth Butrow would save face and not have to explain a simple loss.
Much easier to make up a “Saving B.B. from injuring himself” story, instead of looking like the A$$ Dutrow made of himself with all his stupid arrogant comments for the past 3 weeks.
That my conspiracy theory…;)[/QUOTE]
For what it is worth I tend to concur with a variation of this theory more then most.
You can save face far more easily with a DNF then making an attempt at taking atleast 8th out of 9 starters for a race his connections - from the jock to the owners to the trainers - over sold as being ‘a done deal’. What they’ve almost brilliantly done is let everyone guess what they think happened.
He was not in distress and I see zero reason for BB to not have officially been listed as finished 9th. The DNF gives a nice excuse of something being wrong - and that wrong was he bounced which is fine for a horse that over his 5 prior races just kept getting better and better.
It happens all the time that horses bounce and there is no shame in that from my view. Just don’t try and sell the story as being effectively ‘we couldn’t win so we forced a DNF’.
I’m no fan of the false prophet Smarty Jones (a semi-decent horse but not a Hall of Famer, despite Randy Moss’ suggestion on ESPN/ABC Saturday) but I’ll give him props that at least he ran as hard as he could at the Belmont and did just barely get beat.
By comparison Big Brown is a little like Silky Sullivan’s 1958 Kentucky Derby: everyone expected that amazing speed ball who captured the attention of a nation to appear on cue as always, but didn’t. It does not mean that his wins were bogus or worthy of scorn. It just meant that you can’t keep digging into that bag of miracles time and time again and not pull out a rotten egg at least once.
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