Here’s that horse’s videos, if anyone is interested. It will continue to play through his rides.
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I think buyer beware ALWAYS applies. I also have some thoughts but I’ll just put one out there:
I enquired about PPEing a horse in the area, and got the same spiel about lack of vets and then them not wanting to really X-ray and dig. My vets had quite a different opinion than the ones local to Benchmark - and my vets are not particularly alarmist. THAT SAID: my vets know me and have my interests in mind, and they don’t have high volume sales barns in their regular clientele AFAIK.
If I had been local enough to attend the vetting or even just ride the horse myself, I might’ve made a different decision.
Buyer beware, I think, and listen to your gut on these things. I am sorry to hear about your struggles with the horse himself, Amos, either way.
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I PPE-ed one from her and didn’t have any issue with the vets because I told them what I wanted to see. “Xray this, then call me with the results.” “Xray that, then call me with the results.” If you’re doing a PPE remotely, you have to take more of a driver’s-seat approach.
As with @fivestrideline, I’m truly sorry for your struggles, Amos. He’s really a beautiful horse.
I agree that the descriptions are quite obviously fluffed up and there’s no way one can “know” a horse after one week with them. That said, her job is to sell them so a fluffed advertisement is expected. Consider it a used car salesman - gets a car in, he has NO idea about it but writes the ad “runs great, no mechanical problems.”
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And get your own vet to review the videos/X-rays. That was the sticking point for me - what I thought counted as a red flag for my purposes was not even on their radar. Not knocking the vet! Just saying I wouldn’t trust them outright if they say “nothing to note”.
I can’t foot the bill on multiple retirees so I’m a bit more picky and my vets know that, and it’s all part of horse shopping.
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Yep, that too. I had my local vet look them over as well.
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Maybe I shouldn’t reply but I will because once again someone is questioning my ethics. He absolutely was owned by a friend who had him since coming off the track and rode him regularly with no issues. She has an injury and sold me her two horses. Former owners don’t always want to be involved and I respect their privacy.
I was so over the top transparent about this horse and where we started, what we felt, how we addressed and everything in between. He was going really well but he had worry about being bottled up in the canter. We kept him for a while until we really had consistency.
I was absolutely explicit about him in every single way. I said to you and it’s documented that this is not an ammy horse. He’s big, he’s powerful, he needs xyz and so on. You knew all of that because I was reluctant about him not going to a pro. You said you had a good program for him.
I did not know about his back. He had a bump on his knee which I had xrayed and was disclosed. It was not an issue. I did not have any reason to think he had kissing spine but a lot of them do. His top line was beautiful, used back well, lovely mover, scopey jumper, etc.
In no way does a vet dictate what xrays people want. We have people that xray the entire horse and some that just do basic. I have zero preference. We have a list of vets with the equipment necessary to xray necks and backs. It’s true that some in our area don’t have that equipment.
They can only tell you that a horse has no clinical symptoms. Pain on palpation, lumps or bumps, behavior under tack or on the lunge. I know that particular vet watches the ride videos as well. I very much recall you saying you didn’t want xrays as his basic ppe was good.
I really liked that horse and thought he was super talented.
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@Amos I am sorry to read about your horse. He is lovely. My heart goes out to you for having to deal with KS in your riding horse - I have one as well and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Could you make a separate thread so we can follow your journey with your horse?
At the end of the day buying horses off the track is a risk. They are often an unknown quantity, the seller only knows what the connections told them and nothing more. The work is hard, the horses are typically sore, and it’s not unusual to spend time peeling back the pain layers on an OTTB. TB Resellers know this and have a different idea of what sound is, but most buyers don’t.
KS has so many symptoms beyond palpitating sore over their back. I was just talking to my vet about this yesterday because she came out to do yearly mesotherapy on my KS horse. The list is so long - how their tail is held, how their neck is held, how they strike off in an upward transition, how they load a limb, their fence takeoff, how they react to being saddled, how they react to lateral work, how they canter – it’s unfortunate that all of these symptoms often overlap with general body malaise which is to be expected from a young racing TB.
Tricky horses needing a pro ride tend to be one of the symptoms of pain anywhere, not a personality trait. I see a young horse in an awkward growth phase in the loose video with overall body soreness, very weak behind with difficulty holding a canter, and not much consistency or separation in step, with the tail and neck both behaving stiff and held away from the body. Sometimes the tail and neck have so many contextual clues to pain in the horse’s spine. That trot (imo) and his frantic canter are textbook back-soreness to me. He looks better in the ridden video but I think most people could see the lid was just barely kept on the pot; a lot of bobbles behind. That video is textbook symptomatic KS to me, but not everyone has that experience.
Seven processes is a lot! I expected a different pedigree with that involvement. I’m sorry you are dealing with this, and I hope you keep us updated on your boy’s progress.
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Similar here - I had a horse PPE’d at her barn and the vet was lovely. I asked what she thought I should x-ray and I said I also want these things and it was done.
She even pulled blood prior to sedating for his xrays (he was a handful) just in case I wanted a tox screen.
It is a very different sales approach and I went into with the mindset of: these are my hard no’s, these are acceptable but not preferred, and this is what I must have. My horse from her and I are doing great almost 4 years down the road!
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That horses canter video looks exactly like my kissing spine horse. The sucking back, the 2 tracking, the tail swishing, and the awkward uneven lame looking steps every so often at the trot. I don’t understand what exactly was deceptive other then her opinion of what she see’s? Those videos don’t show a happy sound looking horse. To me that’s a pretty honest representation.
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I think the issue that Amos has is that it was presented as purely behavioral, which is a pretty accurate read on the ad. I agree that I saw a whole bunch of off steps then it would be even, then the horse would get upset and “poppy” again… to me, this is very rarely a behavioral thing and is nearly always a soundness issue, so I can kind of understand why she would be upset.
I could see a bunch of what I would have considered red flags in the jumping video, too.
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I think the TL;DR summary of the post is:
I deeply regret not having the horse’s back xrayed so I’m going to blame the seller. Not the vet, who apparently told me I didn’t need them. Not myself, for failing to do some pretty basic due diligence. It’s all the seller’s fault.
Did it occur to you to tell the vet you wanted them anyway?
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Ok if you going just off the text in the ad but come on…I didn’t even watch the entire video before I could tell it wasn’t behavioral and I’m sure you could too. The proof is live on video He is a big beautiful black horse which I guess could make it easier to look past. IDK 
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Maybe the buyer and her trainer didn’t know any better - we all learn somewhere.
The important part here is that experienced people, like the seller, often have a pretty darn good clue about what both you and I could see in the video. Yet the ad was written the way it was.
That’s where I can see someone being upset. That said, it is VERY rare that a seller has your best interests in mind, especially one who pushes that much volume. It’s horse trading, and the negative connotation goes with that for a reason.
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FWIW, the buyer admits they trusted the PPE vet and that was a mistake.
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I can totally understand why this did not happen.
The professional there, that was hands on and went to college for this stuff said that X-rays were not needed. The average buyer is going to think they are being silly for pushing it after the vet says no.
I am not saying that was the right response, and this case proves it was not the right response. But, it is a very believable and not out of the norm response for the average horse buyer, which clearly this seller depends on.
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I guess; but then why blame the seller?
First, I have a hard time believing a vet would say “No need to do radiographs.” on a PPE. I can believe someone looking for an inexpensive horse might be reluctant to do rads because of the expense, but I have a hard time the vet said “No need.” Rads are CYA for the vet as well as the buyer. Second, I would think rads would be standard on a PPE for a horse off the track.
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@endlessclimb here’s my horse’s canter video at his worst…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX6VGOrD-To
Could be brothers from another mother lol
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Yep, identical to my 6+ processes KS horse. I clocked the questionable soundness immediately. HOWEVER, I own the KS horse that taught me to see these things, so I can completely understand why someone else saw a big, flashy black horse and not the obvious NQR. We all learn from our personal experiences.
I think that the paragraphs upon paragraphs of “this is all training and behavior” juxtaposed with the videos is a big banner that says “do your homework”. But I didn’t see any lies or true misrepresentation of the horse, just a difference of opinion and a human conflict of interest.
Personally, I wouldn’t be reaching out to the seller or blaming them for this. It’s a lesson learned - a tough, expensive lesson - but nothing here that says the seller blatantly lied or drugged the horse or anything.
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I really hope this stunningly handsome horse heals up well for you and you go on and do great things together. I would love if you would keep us posted on how he does post KS surgery. As you know, some of us are also dealing w/ KS and I appreciate any anecdotal info to put into my knowledge base.
I can see why you are angry and feel deceived. However, in all horse deals, buyer beware. In the ad, there is definitely smoke about issues and where there is smoke, there is fire. Hind sight is 20/20 but based on the behavioral description and the video, I would have definitely recommended X-raying him from top to bottom. I am sorry you didn’t get that advice.
He is beautiful and athletic. Again I really hope that he recovers well. Best of luck!!
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The not going forward at the canter is classic KS, as is the unnatural uphill look and popping into the canter from the trot. BTDT.
All I can say is God bless these horses, they don’t want to buck their riders off. They have every reason to do so. OP, I wouldn’t blame your horse for finally having enough of being asked to work through his pain and dumping your trainer. He looks at his wit’s end under saddle.
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