I guess; but then why blame the seller?
First, I have a hard time believing a vet would say “No need to do radiographs.” on a PPE. I can believe someone looking for an inexpensive horse might be reluctant to do rads because of the expense, but I have a hard time the vet said “No need.” Rads are CYA for the vet as well as the buyer. Second, I would think rads would be standard on a PPE for a horse off the track.
@endlessclimb here’s my horse’s canter video at his worst…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX6VGOrD-To
Could be brothers from another mother lol
Yep, identical to my 6+ processes KS horse. I clocked the questionable soundness immediately. HOWEVER, I own the KS horse that taught me to see these things, so I can completely understand why someone else saw a big, flashy black horse and not the obvious NQR. We all learn from our personal experiences.
I think that the paragraphs upon paragraphs of “this is all training and behavior” juxtaposed with the videos is a big banner that says “do your homework”. But I didn’t see any lies or true misrepresentation of the horse, just a difference of opinion and a human conflict of interest.
Personally, I wouldn’t be reaching out to the seller or blaming them for this. It’s a lesson learned - a tough, expensive lesson - but nothing here that says the seller blatantly lied or drugged the horse or anything.
I really hope this stunningly handsome horse heals up well for you and you go on and do great things together. I would love if you would keep us posted on how he does post KS surgery. As you know, some of us are also dealing w/ KS and I appreciate any anecdotal info to put into my knowledge base.
I can see why you are angry and feel deceived. However, in all horse deals, buyer beware. In the ad, there is definitely smoke about issues and where there is smoke, there is fire. Hind sight is 20/20 but based on the behavioral description and the video, I would have definitely recommended X-raying him from top to bottom. I am sorry you didn’t get that advice.
He is beautiful and athletic. Again I really hope that he recovers well. Best of luck!!
The not going forward at the canter is classic KS, as is the unnatural uphill look and popping into the canter from the trot. BTDT.
All I can say is God bless these horses, they don’t want to buck their riders off. They have every reason to do so. OP, I wouldn’t blame your horse for finally having enough of being asked to work through his pain and dumping your trainer. He looks at his wit’s end under saddle.
Having dealt with some of the few vets in the area, they absolutely do not encourage X-rays or really more than flexions. Someone could take this “well, I don’t see any reason to but you can spend the money if you want” as not needing to do them at all, and that’s not the vet’s fault. The buyer needs to go into the PPE with an idea of what they want done rather than depending on the PPE vet to guide the appointment. This is usually something the pro is supposed to handle, or something the personal buyer learns the hard way 
That said, it sucks and I’m sorry for anyone who experiences the downs of horses like this. And I hope the big guy recovers well and becomes a KS surgery success story!
Amen. Germane to this topic but I had a vet from my vet practice come out to do meso on my KS horse yesterday. We talked a bit about what was symptomatic for this horse. He’s very stoic. She watched him jog and palped his back (non-reactive) - I got the sense she was surprised I called them out. I shared what was “symptomatic” for this horse: rushing fences, stiffening when the saddle is placed on his back, odd tail carriage. I told her he’s never bucked under saddle - I think she was surprised.
The horse in that video is a case study on a seriously uncomfortable horse. The seller missed it. The riders missed it. The buyer missed it. The trainer missed it. People need to develop their eye to lamenesses outside of producing a limp.
I haven’t dealt with KS IRL so I’m really interested in what you are seeing. To me, first thing I see is a gorgeous classy horse with a good mind 
but then I see that he isn’t tracking up behind at trot, which I associate with hock issues. The canter is upright and short, but sometimes that happens in a smaller pen where the horse doesn’t feel he can move freely enough. It’s a really interesting case study to get the sales video and the diagnosis/prognosis because we end up seeing so many videos asking “is this horse sound?” we all reply NQR, poster doesn’t buy horse and end of story.
Anyhow KS is turning up more and more as a diagnosed issue so I’m interested in how to ID it visually. It does occur to me that though the hinds aren’t tracking up, there’s no huge problem with articulating the hocks which you’d expect if the problem was in the leg. I’ve watched enough older lesson horses with hind legs that just swing, not really bend.
That snappy thing he does when he creeps up into the canter screams some kind of zinging pain.
The wringing/writhing tail.
Consistently lame on right hind, needs to be FLYING to track up on left.
The undersaddle video was troubling in a number of ways. That horse is a saint.
Amos, I’m very sorry for your experience.
Mmmmm I doubt it. She has so many horses come through you can’t tell me she missed such obvious signs of discomfort. But as a flipper, it doesn’t matter to her because she won’t be footing the bill for the horse long term, she just wants it sold and off her payroll as quickly as possible so she’ll say whatever it takes to make that happen. She’s also been pretty clear that she doesn’t consider KS a big deal
I few posts above I posted a short youtube video of my horse at his worst so you can compare. I didn’t diagnose Amos as kissing spine from his video but based off my experiences he was not having behavioral issues
Agreed. My horse never offered to dump me and lord knows he could have. He just told me “no” as loudly as he could without speaking.
General back issues and KS have a “shape” to it versus one specific trigger or tell. There’s a lack of harmony to the picture. When he is asked to move out or forward the first thing that happens is the neck tenses and is unnaturally held. His head carriage is inverted. The neck acts as rudder, there are a few parts where he is stabilizing his trailing and weak hind end by propping up his neck and shoulder.
Any time I see neck go UP UP inverted and hocks go OUT and trail behind, I suspect sore back. Can be any number of things causing it, but that “outline” in of itself is so textbook to back pain.
Watch the tail. It’s held away from his body at almost all times, especially when he is required to move forward or change direction. It gets clamped to the side a few times. His whole back looks like a stiff board held as flat as possible. His canter is crooked with poor separation of the hinds, watch how his hocks snap under his buttocks but never seem to extend underneath his body in a fluid forward stride - this is a good example of him mid-canter stride, the hind end should have more separation and instead the hind end is moving almost paired:
Around turns he stiffens and inverts his whole body. The hind ends tend to pair together versus be separated and push from the ground - there is no clear rhythm or balance. The hocks and stifles are stiff, the hocks trail out behind him. The whole hind end ROM lacks harmony.
I notice KS horses tend to have abnormal ROM with their fetlock during loading phase at canter. They drag their toes and never really fully flex that limb down. It’s like they are moving off of that hoof as soon as possible.
This whole outline is what I mean - no separation of hinds and a flat back:
At that phase of his stride his head should be lower, hocks should be bent, not straight out behind him, and the croup should be lifting up to allow the hind end to come back under the body. The stifle and hock don’t really fully articulate, and the limb looks like it is stabbing up and down.
In the ridden videos what sticks out to me the most is how reactive he is in the canter and the inconsistent lameness behind at trot. All that tail wringing and butt-propping, head tossing, and how a few times at the trot you see his hind end is taking a “half step” as if about to canter, but not. Going faster and faster until you collapse into a stilted canter is kissing spine modus operandi. Ears back, tail held like a pointer dog when not being whipped around, teeth exposed, toe dragging, stabby motion behind, all contribute an overall shape that presents as physical pain.
I felt the same. I’m surprised anyone experienced looked at that video and thought “this horse looks physically comfortable.”
Someone who sells hundreds of horses and professes to have informed opinions on kissing spines is the sort of person I would expect to see a horse move this way and say “there’s a veterinary issue here.”
I am ignorant for sure, and did not watch full video, but to me he looked like an uphill built thoroughbred with impressive front end extension-just saying not because I am correct-but because I am not familiar with signs of KS and I can see why buyer might have thought -wow. You don’t know what you don’t know for sure.
(Edited to add: I have a big uphill trotting OTT I was going to begin putting under saddle after time off—I assume because of its prevalence, one should have OTT vetted for kissing spine or back issues from the start?)
I describe my KS horse’s canter as “pogo stick” or “reindeer”. You look at him and then you look at his canter and it doesn’t make sense that he’d be that short strided. Especially when you see his videos as a 3-4 year old vs now.
@beowulf did a much more comprehensive job of the back/spine pain red flags, but the lack of separation of the hind legs is a BIG one for me. They can be flingy in front and “uphill”, but it looks very rushy and unhappy electric vs really powering forward.
I’ll say this Final Deception horse is flashy and really trying to keep a lid on it. Poor guy, I hope he gets relief.
THIS…for a bit louder for the people in the back. This is what I have a huge issue with.
While Final Deception obviously isn’t comfortable, it’s really not uncommon for horses to move like this immediately following their retirement from the track. Not every one of them moves like this because of KS. It could be any number of things - sometimes they come down “hot” all over. They might have strained something in their SI or stifle or hocks. Sometimes it’s feet. Sometimes just a month or so on the backburner is all they need.
The uphill trotting is not a symptom in of itself of the disease. I wouldn’t x-ray unless you’re seeing signs of discomfort.
Once you get to his riding videos is where you get the real picture. Particularly the canter.
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