Amos has never ridden the horse @TWilson. He went straight into a program with a pro. I’m not sure what else you expect given the buyer said he would go straight into a program with a pro. That happened.
And:
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I don’t know what you are trying to prove here; Amos admitted that she did not have a trainer at the time of the sale. Jessica says she has documented proof that Amos told her that she had a good program for the horse. Clearly everything was NOT disclosed.
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“A good program for the horse” doesn’t mean at all that the rider was currently riding with a trainer. It means there was a “good program for the horse” once he arrived.
Regardless:
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Honestly, you do realize you can BOTH be correct?
The buyer bought the horse as an amateur without the input of a professional. However, that does not mean she had not already made arrangements for it to go to a professional by the time the horse was shipped.
And it’s equally possible that the seller was uncomfortable selling a horse to an amateur without the professional seeing/riding the horse, even if that amateur had a professional lined up.
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We are interpreting this wording in different ways, and that’s ok. The wording provided by both sides here is paraphrased and most likely incomplete as far as additional details that were shared. Based on what I have read here, my take is that the buyer got all starry eyed at the tall black horse with the big trot, and said whatever she felt she needed to say to get the seller to sell her the horse. Your take is obviously very different; there’s nothing wrong with that. I just don’t understand why the seller is basically being reprimanded by some here for not babysitting this buyer through this sale. Seller said horse needed a program, buyer said she had a program. How much hand holding do you think sellers are expected to do to sell a horse?
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Simkie, you seem to have so much hate for me. Would you like to reveal your name? Not only did I have extremely extensive phone calls with this buyer but also documented emails where I was absolutely forthcoming. You know nothing about me or my business. It is so easy to hide behind screen names as most here do. There are two sides to every story. I do not feel I misrepresented the horse.
I absolutely know I encourage and allow any ppes, xrays, etc. None of the vets on my list have any association with me nor would they ever do anything wrong.
Very much a case of someone who is telling such a different version of what happened.
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Do you think an amateur with a decade out of the saddle is a good fit for a horse marketed as a “pro ride.” Seriously.
If Jessica says all this:
Does that align with placing this horse in this home.
Is it all about the sale? If it is, slap a buy it now button on the website. Caveat emptor.
If it’s about placing the horse in the right spot–especially for a horse that the seller is very up front about needing something specific–then YES there is onus on the seller on an attempt to get him that specific thing.
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Again farm visits are rare??? You must be joking. We have so many shoppers that come here but I sell young green horses often with a few post track documented rides. Show me sales barns that take twice weekly videos or document as much as we do. There is nothing hidden.
I simply am careful about who comes to try my horses. Nothing undoes training faster than bad rides. 99% of people overstate their abilities. We are careful to put people on quiet horses first to ensure safety. I do talk to people, email, Facebook messages, etc and tell many it’s not a match.
That being said a lot of people do buy sight unseen. I do the best I can but nobody gets it right all the time.
Buyer very much told me she had a very well thought out plan for him. We discussed it extensively.
You do not know me nor how I conduct business so to imply otherwise is false.
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I have zero hate for you. I don’t know you from Adam. But what you’ve shared here about your business sure doesn’t seem to align with what others have shared about your business.
Oh? So you’ve returned her call?
At no point have I said you’ve misrepresented the horse. I feel I’ve made it pretty clear that my beef is selling a “behavioral issues” “pro ride” horse sight unseen to someone who’s been out of the saddle for ten years, without even discussing what he needed with the trainer. And then refusing to have a conversion with the seller post sale.
Feel free to share yours 
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I’ve already provided my opinion, multiple times, to all of this so I’m not going to repeat myself any more than I already have.
Benchmark seems to be a very successful business; I see tons of positive feedback on Facebook, she has repeat customers, and the majority of horses sell pretty quickly. I just don’t think your over the top criticism is warranted, but you are welcome to your opinion as much as I am mine.
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Yes, ppe is extensive. In the barn exam. Flexions, lunging, neuro exam and vet watches horse be tacked, mounted, wtc both ways and circles. Bloodwork pulled. I can’t imagine a ppe gets any more extensive. Some people xray every single thing on the horse. Some just do a basic. I have zero involvement in what a buyer does or doesn’t do.
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That is exactly how all vets do PPE’s in my experience. Some do a neuro exam and some don’t so that seems to vary. I think every vet has a slightly different way of doing things. I do want to add that these are mostly all horses very fresh off the track. We are riding, lunging, etc for ppes which is more than you get at the track but the horses are still very green. Most maybe have popped a jump or two. Some are still struggling with leads.
We also video our training rides and they are able to be viewed by anyone who wishes to see them. How many videos a horse has is probably based on low long it’s here but we show grooming, tacking, baths, wash stall, mounting, etc.
We are just normal people who happen to enjoy the restarting process. I like to think I rehome more horse than anyone here ever has and I do a lot of good providing an outlet for horses coming off the track. It’s extremely rare that people are unhappy but I’ve likely sold over 1000 horses. I don’t think anyone can be perfect. Not to mention sometimes there are just such different versions told on a horse. Different riding, tack, feed, turnout, etc can change a horses way of going.
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I have shared mine and don’t need to rehash it. You don’t know me, haven’t done business with me and don’t have any of the facts but want to carry on like you have some sort of personal insight. Seems like some sort of vendetta 
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Your vet stated that he directly questioned you about the horses behavior. He stated that you outright denied any adverse behavior. Is he lying?
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I’m going to talk about kissing spine because out of anyone I probably have more experience with kissing spine, ppes, etc than most.
We have so many vets that do ppes and we also work with many other vets. I dare say most vets absolutely hate the whole back film discussion because it’s one part of the picture. I could send 200 horses to ppe a year and the horses I think have kissing spine don’t and those we are sure don’t actually have it. Find me a vet that can diagnose kissing spine by looking at a horse. Most vets absolutely will tell you they often find no clinical symptoms but the horse has it when xrayed. Sometimes you think damn it’s got to be kissing spine and then it’s not. Then what does it mean if they have one spot, two spots, five spits, etc? Will they have issues? When? Let’s all roll our crystal ball. If I know one of mine has it then it’s disclosed. I’m sure many who are reading this thread darn well know I’ve disclosed it on horses. If I have the film’s, I provide. If I don’t then I say what I know. Many and I mean many horses are purchased knowing about kissing spine. I will also say it’s very tough for vets doing PPE’s because they are getting a full picture of the horse but a buyers vets who may just be reviewing films is only seeing the radiographs. There is a huge varying opinion among vets on kissing spine. I often get vets that have way different opinions on the same set of films. Many absolutely are against surgery. Others are pro surgery. It’s simply not a black and white topic. I’m allowed to have personal views. I’m sorry it offends people when I talk about backs or vet findings but I also get to see these horses in new careers not limited. It’s a large sample pool. I’m not just the owner who has one horse with kissing spine and run from mention of the word.
I just listened to a podcast with an Olympic rider who does a ton of sales/imports where she talks about how many have kissing spine and how the industry is going to need to decide what it means. I suspect it could be why her Olympic horse was passed on in several ppes😉
It’s not a thoroughbred specific issue. Most horses with kissing spine are not clinical and can be kept happy. So no I don’t think it’s the kiss of death nor do many vets or professionals. It requires proper tack, conditioning, riding and maybe Chiro, injections, etc but horses in general require maintenance.
I have seen the full gamit of back films. I’m well educated on it. I spend a ton of time discussing it with vets to get input, research, etc.
People on this thread seem to immediately jump to Omg it’s clear it’s the back and how could you have not known. So many internet vets and trainers here.
We get horses (especially those started elsewhere) that need some remedial training. It’s not unusual at all. When horse improve rapidly and don’t go the other direction then I don’t immediately jump to pain vs behavioral. I do workup a horse with vets when needed. Anything unusual gets xrayed, ultrasounded, etc. Anyone who reads my posts would know I talk about it.
Some people don’t like how we ride and that’s totally fine. Everyone is entitled to ride how they want.
I know I could just ignore but it’s frustrating to read so many untruths.
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You used a vet practice located in another state. There was nothing not disclosed/documented. We had one difficult ride and then nothing but better and better. How is that any different than most horses? Hell sometimes at ppes horses can do green horse things during the whole vetting. Some are ridiculous for flexions. Some get so disturbed by the long process it doesn’t make for a perfect ride portion of the vetting but that can be normal stuff.
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Emotional, I disagree. It’s been quite a few months. If I were to have posted when he was diagnosed, that would have been emotional. The OP asked about experiences with this seller. This is my experience.
I think you are confusing a tricky or hot horse with a lame horse. Tricky or hot horses can be trained and ridden safely. Lame horses can’t. You can’t train pain out of a horse.
The seller is at fault as am I. I was stupid, thick rose-colored glasses. She was dishonest. Her own vet says she failed to disclose the behavior this horse was exhibiting when said vet directly asked her. That in and of itself is misrepresentation.
You may believe that a seller, who touts her expertise often (on Kissing Spine as well, right here on this thread) and admits to selling 1000+ horses, didn’t see a painful horse. I disagree and I think she put her own riders in danger for a dollar. That’s my opinion. If she didn’t, her rose-colored glasses are way thicker than mine and that needs remedied for her own riders’ safety.
You say I lied or misled the seller about having a program for the horse. The horse went to the trainer’s barn directly from the seller’s barn. If that wasn’t lined up, how did it happen? I never claimed I had ridden with the trainer for years, quite the contrary. Was very upfront in stating I had recently moved to the area. I never told Ms. Redman the trainer was involved in the sale. If she was actively involved in the sale Ms. Redman surely would have known, she would have spoken to her. As well, I went so far as to offer Ms. Redman the trainer’s contact information. Not sure where that’s not full disclosure.
That you purport I have taken no responsibility is a false narrative. You actually went so far as to quote me taking responsibility in another post. Not sure what more to say on that. Funny, Ms Redman has posted on this thread multiple times, I haven’t seen her take any responsibility.
You infer quite a bit,
That I said “whatever she felt she needed to say to get the seller to sell her the horse.” I didn’t claim to be professional. Didn’t claim to be riding the Grand Prix. Didn’t even claim to be riding at the time. She was told straight out that I was an amateur coming off a 10+ year hiatus.
You even infer as to when after purchase I first contacted Ms Redman, which you are also wrong about.
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I used a vet practice located in another state.
Are you inferring that you don’t have a relationship with this practice?
Did you see the crow-hopping? Did you see the bucking? You did.
Did you disclose this to the vet when directly questioned? He says no.
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You may have experience selling horses with KS, but I have to ask you - do you have experience keeping that horse sound its entire life, maintaining and keeping it sound in while in moderate+ work, rehabbing the physiological aspect of KS, rehabbing the behavioral issues from from chronic pain, rehabbing any/all surgical interventions, or riding and training a KS horse in a competitive discipline?
Have you ever rehabbed a horse from the bone shave surgery? Lig snip? Did you get to compete it? How long was it in work? Did any other lameness sideline it?
Or are you basing your opinion on the snapshot you glimpse when you temporarily have a young, fit horse in your program who hasn’t yet hit the prime age KS is most often diagnosed?
Just because you have experienced horses in your program being diagnosed with the disease, in no way makes you an expert of the disease and its long term impact on the horse.
You speak with such authority on this subject (“out of anyone I have more experience with KS than most”) when to my knowledge, you aren’t the one keeping these horses their whole lives and keeping them sound enough in mind and body to be competitive. This part of your posts — and many others on the forum and FB — get my back up because it completely invalidates the reality most KS owners experience - which is a miserable, unrideable horse.
Please show me the study that supports this. In my professional experience this is not true. The horse’s connections just don’t have an eye for soundness or detecting symptoms.
There are studies that explain the above, in depth.
I’m sorry, I’m not trying to be combative. I see both sides of this crappy situation — truly — but it’s the horse that is suffering and Amos is footing the bill for it. Presumably for the rest of this horse’s life — usable or not.
I just attended a lameness seminar held by my sport-horse vet and KS was discussed. They do not share the same opinion your vets do about back X-rays being unnecessary, nor do they handwave clinical findings. If there is remodeling between joint spaces that means that something aggravated it long enough for remodeling to occur. Remodeling doesn’t occur in a vacuum.
On that note: KS has more behavioral symptoms than physical. Many of those behaviors are expressed by Final Deception. Seven processes is a lot! The prognosis is very poor for that many processes being involved. It’s understood in veterinarian circles that five processes or more has the worst prognosis for a low impact riding career. In my personal experience I can say this is true.
When vets familiar with the disease are saying “oh I wouldn’t be concerned about these findings”, they are referring to findings where there is mild remodeling between one or two processes- usually in a teenaged horse that is actively competing.
The location, number of processes affected, and age of the horse play a significant part in forming a veterinarian’s opinion about whether findings are concerning. I don’t know a single vet that would handwave SEVEN processes in a young horse.
Few clinically positive KS horses are asymptomatic. They’re just owned by people who chalk up their issues as behavioral — or — they’re categorized as a “pro ride”.
I’d invite you to join the KS groups on FB, so you can see long term prognosis of this disease. It might help inform your opinion of how these horses fare down the road as their bodies get older and the demands of two decades worth of carting around ~1300 lb catch up to them. Some of them are even your former horses.
-Lauren
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You assumed wrong…again.
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