Your vet stated that he directly questioned you about the horses behavior. He stated that you outright denied any adverse behavior. Is he lying?
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I’m going to talk about kissing spine because out of anyone I probably have more experience with kissing spine, ppes, etc than most.
We have so many vets that do ppes and we also work with many other vets. I dare say most vets absolutely hate the whole back film discussion because it’s one part of the picture. I could send 200 horses to ppe a year and the horses I think have kissing spine don’t and those we are sure don’t actually have it. Find me a vet that can diagnose kissing spine by looking at a horse. Most vets absolutely will tell you they often find no clinical symptoms but the horse has it when xrayed. Sometimes you think damn it’s got to be kissing spine and then it’s not. Then what does it mean if they have one spot, two spots, five spits, etc? Will they have issues? When? Let’s all roll our crystal ball. If I know one of mine has it then it’s disclosed. I’m sure many who are reading this thread darn well know I’ve disclosed it on horses. If I have the film’s, I provide. If I don’t then I say what I know. Many and I mean many horses are purchased knowing about kissing spine. I will also say it’s very tough for vets doing PPE’s because they are getting a full picture of the horse but a buyers vets who may just be reviewing films is only seeing the radiographs. There is a huge varying opinion among vets on kissing spine. I often get vets that have way different opinions on the same set of films. Many absolutely are against surgery. Others are pro surgery. It’s simply not a black and white topic. I’m allowed to have personal views. I’m sorry it offends people when I talk about backs or vet findings but I also get to see these horses in new careers not limited. It’s a large sample pool. I’m not just the owner who has one horse with kissing spine and run from mention of the word.
I just listened to a podcast with an Olympic rider who does a ton of sales/imports where she talks about how many have kissing spine and how the industry is going to need to decide what it means. I suspect it could be why her Olympic horse was passed on in several ppes😉
It’s not a thoroughbred specific issue. Most horses with kissing spine are not clinical and can be kept happy. So no I don’t think it’s the kiss of death nor do many vets or professionals. It requires proper tack, conditioning, riding and maybe Chiro, injections, etc but horses in general require maintenance.
I have seen the full gamit of back films. I’m well educated on it. I spend a ton of time discussing it with vets to get input, research, etc.
People on this thread seem to immediately jump to Omg it’s clear it’s the back and how could you have not known. So many internet vets and trainers here.
We get horses (especially those started elsewhere) that need some remedial training. It’s not unusual at all. When horse improve rapidly and don’t go the other direction then I don’t immediately jump to pain vs behavioral. I do workup a horse with vets when needed. Anything unusual gets xrayed, ultrasounded, etc. Anyone who reads my posts would know I talk about it.
Some people don’t like how we ride and that’s totally fine. Everyone is entitled to ride how they want.
I know I could just ignore but it’s frustrating to read so many untruths.
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You used a vet practice located in another state. There was nothing not disclosed/documented. We had one difficult ride and then nothing but better and better. How is that any different than most horses? Hell sometimes at ppes horses can do green horse things during the whole vetting. Some are ridiculous for flexions. Some get so disturbed by the long process it doesn’t make for a perfect ride portion of the vetting but that can be normal stuff.
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Emotional, I disagree. It’s been quite a few months. If I were to have posted when he was diagnosed, that would have been emotional. The OP asked about experiences with this seller. This is my experience.
I think you are confusing a tricky or hot horse with a lame horse. Tricky or hot horses can be trained and ridden safely. Lame horses can’t. You can’t train pain out of a horse.
The seller is at fault as am I. I was stupid, thick rose-colored glasses. She was dishonest. Her own vet says she failed to disclose the behavior this horse was exhibiting when said vet directly asked her. That in and of itself is misrepresentation.
You may believe that a seller, who touts her expertise often (on Kissing Spine as well, right here on this thread) and admits to selling 1000+ horses, didn’t see a painful horse. I disagree and I think she put her own riders in danger for a dollar. That’s my opinion. If she didn’t, her rose-colored glasses are way thicker than mine and that needs remedied for her own riders’ safety.
You say I lied or misled the seller about having a program for the horse. The horse went to the trainer’s barn directly from the seller’s barn. If that wasn’t lined up, how did it happen? I never claimed I had ridden with the trainer for years, quite the contrary. Was very upfront in stating I had recently moved to the area. I never told Ms. Redman the trainer was involved in the sale. If she was actively involved in the sale Ms. Redman surely would have known, she would have spoken to her. As well, I went so far as to offer Ms. Redman the trainer’s contact information. Not sure where that’s not full disclosure.
That you purport I have taken no responsibility is a false narrative. You actually went so far as to quote me taking responsibility in another post. Not sure what more to say on that. Funny, Ms Redman has posted on this thread multiple times, I haven’t seen her take any responsibility.
You infer quite a bit,
That I said “whatever she felt she needed to say to get the seller to sell her the horse.” I didn’t claim to be professional. Didn’t claim to be riding the Grand Prix. Didn’t even claim to be riding at the time. She was told straight out that I was an amateur coming off a 10+ year hiatus.
You even infer as to when after purchase I first contacted Ms Redman, which you are also wrong about.
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I used a vet practice located in another state.
Are you inferring that you don’t have a relationship with this practice?
Did you see the crow-hopping? Did you see the bucking? You did.
Did you disclose this to the vet when directly questioned? He says no.
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You may have experience selling horses with KS, but I have to ask you - do you have experience keeping that horse sound its entire life, maintaining and keeping it sound in while in moderate+ work, rehabbing the physiological aspect of KS, rehabbing the behavioral issues from from chronic pain, rehabbing any/all surgical interventions, or riding and training a KS horse in a competitive discipline?
Have you ever rehabbed a horse from the bone shave surgery? Lig snip? Did you get to compete it? How long was it in work? Did any other lameness sideline it?
Or are you basing your opinion on the snapshot you glimpse when you temporarily have a young, fit horse in your program who hasn’t yet hit the prime age KS is most often diagnosed?
Just because you have experienced horses in your program being diagnosed with the disease, in no way makes you an expert of the disease and its long term impact on the horse.
You speak with such authority on this subject (“out of anyone I have more experience with KS than most”) when to my knowledge, you aren’t the one keeping these horses their whole lives and keeping them sound enough in mind and body to be competitive. This part of your posts — and many others on the forum and FB — get my back up because it completely invalidates the reality most KS owners experience - which is a miserable, unrideable horse.
Please show me the study that supports this. In my professional experience this is not true. The horse’s connections just don’t have an eye for soundness or detecting symptoms.
There are studies that explain the above, in depth.
I’m sorry, I’m not trying to be combative. I see both sides of this crappy situation — truly — but it’s the horse that is suffering and Amos is footing the bill for it. Presumably for the rest of this horse’s life — usable or not.
I just attended a lameness seminar held by my sport-horse vet and KS was discussed. They do not share the same opinion your vets do about back X-rays being unnecessary, nor do they handwave clinical findings. If there is remodeling between joint spaces that means that something aggravated it long enough for remodeling to occur. Remodeling doesn’t occur in a vacuum.
On that note: KS has more behavioral symptoms than physical. Many of those behaviors are expressed by Final Deception. Seven processes is a lot! The prognosis is very poor for that many processes being involved. It’s understood in veterinarian circles that five processes or more has the worst prognosis for a low impact riding career. In my personal experience I can say this is true.
When vets familiar with the disease are saying “oh I wouldn’t be concerned about these findings”, they are referring to findings where there is mild remodeling between one or two processes- usually in a teenaged horse that is actively competing.
The location, number of processes affected, and age of the horse play a significant part in forming a veterinarian’s opinion about whether findings are concerning. I don’t know a single vet that would handwave SEVEN processes in a young horse.
Few clinically positive KS horses are asymptomatic. They’re just owned by people who chalk up their issues as behavioral — or — they’re categorized as a “pro ride”.
I’d invite you to join the KS groups on FB, so you can see long term prognosis of this disease. It might help inform your opinion of how these horses fare down the road as their bodies get older and the demands of two decades worth of carting around ~1300 lb catch up to them. Some of them are even your former horses.
-Lauren
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You assumed wrong…again.
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Looking back, I don’t feel he got better through the rides. I feel the first rider is a bit stronger and asked more of him than the second. Both are wonderful riders, but Ms. Iacono Wilson asked more and he reacted more.
I didn’t think she was a liar at first either, hence the reason I reached out to her, multiple times. Again, contrary to what some might believe, I never contacted her with aggression. I never released details, frankly for my own benefit. I’m not prepping her response. “Hello, it’s X, I purchased X from you. I would appreciate a call back.”
What did I expect?
- I expected her to be an adult, a professional, and return a phone call on likely her highest priced sale. Don’t know that for a fact, but he was well above the Benchmark 5K special.
- I expected her to take off her rose-colored glasses if she really believed he was sound, because she is putting her riders’ safety at risk, as well as that of the potential buyer/trainer.
I’m not sure what more I expected, but I was willing to listen. Tell me your version. Tell me how you’ve seen these KS horses treated. Tell me something crazy, so I think you are nuts and not malignant. Unclear, but I was willing to listen.
I would like for her to stop passing off her incautious “expert” notions of KS being some amorphous condition that a horse can be trained out of and that no vet can see on clinical exam. She has a following and people believe her take on KS which clearly suits her needs as a broker (or “rehomer” as she prefers).
Contrary to many of these posts, I do take responsibility for my part. I made so many mistakes I would never let a close friend buying a horse make. That said, I do not absolve the seller of her responsibility as a professional and a self-proclaimed expert. She takes no ownership in selling a dangerous horse. Not a lick.
Again I offer, would it have been OK for me to resell him and cut my losses after what I as an amateur, observed in person (Unseating or near-unseating of a professional rider, no XRs on file, and I was told it’s training…same as Ms. Redman)?
Maybe it’s hard to confer the difference between what was seen on the sales videos vs in-person. I do not believe his KS progressed or his behavior changed in 1 month (timeframe from last Benchmark video to him starting with my trainer). I would love to post the video of him on the line. I am an amateur and when I saw it, I called the vet without second thought. Why didn’t a professional, self-proclaimed expert do the same?
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Yes, this. Unfortunately there are very few in-between sources out there, and the OTTB reseller market seems to have exploded in the past 5-10 years, leading to a lot of people who should absolutely not be in the business… for example:
There’s a girl who boarded at my barn (who(m?) I had to kick out for many reasons, one of them being because her boyfriend pulled a knife on my barn worker) who has hung a shingle out as an “experienced trainer” and is restarting OTTBs when she literally has zero experience doing so. She is absolutely the kind of backyard rider you’re referring to (horse bolting at jumps, head flinging everywhere) but the scary part is she has a barn and client base, and people are buying from her.
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This.
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Yes, emotional. None of this is helping to change my opinion of this matter - I stand by everything I’ve said. Buying horses is always risky; buying horses on the internet as an amateur with no professional support is the absolute riskiest way to go about it.
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I do not disagree with you at all.
It is crazy risky.
I continue to be shocked by us, as horse people, are OK with that fact and are so willing to defend those who make it that.
No, I do not expect this seller to take this horse back or any of that. But this seller does represent themselves as something they are clearly not, and I that is not OK with me.
We (horse people) should want to support sellers being as honest as possible. Not pummel buyers for not going to the moon and back.
This buyer for sure made lots of mistakes. The buyer admits to making lots of mistakes. That does not negate the mistakes the seller made, mistakes that seemed to be intentional.
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I appreciate the kind words, and I feel much the same regarding your posts.
I think our area of disagreement lies in what it is reasonable to expect from a seller.
Give that Jessica does this in addition to a full time job, does it at a pretty high volume and has a book of satisfied clients, I think expecting more of her as a seller isn’t reasonable. I also am very conscious that the service she provides is incredibly valuable and increasingly scarce. I think people like Jessica are absolutely critical to good endings for lots of OTTBs.
Your view, if I understand it correctly, is that the seller should have assumed the behavior under saddle was pain related and had a vet work up before offering the horse for sale? And that would have prevented this whole sad tale? In a perfect world, yes, I think that’s what should have happened. But for someone who moves the volume of horses through her barn that she does? I just can’t get to that being a reasonable expectation. If it becomes an expectation in the industry, you’ll see a lot fewer resellers and a lot higher prices.
If I had taken a client to look at Final Deception, based on the videos, I would have either advised the client to wait until he had been in work longer to see how the horse progressed, knowing we might lose the horse. I would never have let a client purchase a horse that she hadn’t ridden. No way, no how. The fit or suitability is everything for most ammys. If we proceeded with a PPE, I would have insisted the horse be ridden in front of the PPE vet, and I would have insisted on back xrays. I would have also shared the videos and the xrays with my own vet. I also routinely advised clients not to buy a horse for me to ride; but to buy a horse for themselves to ride. Needing a pro ride once a week to tune a horse up? Sure. Having your trainer ride the first week on a new horse? Sure, that’s smart. Buying a horse that has to be in a full time training program indefinitely? Crazy for an ammy re-rider. Add in the no previous relationship to the trainer, as in, I’m buying a horse for a stranger to ride and bill me for it? Crazier still.
Final thoughts: I don’t agree with everything Jessica says about KS, but I respect it’s an opinion based on her extensive experience. I do think thinking about KS is going to evolve, much like the thinking about navicular in the 70s and 80s, and that bad xrays absent clinical signs are not going to be considered a major reservation. (Yes, of course, this horse did have clinical signs.) I’m not going to discount her opinion simply because it doesn’t align perfectly with mine.
Reasonable people, like you and me, can have differing informed opinions. Reasonable people, like Jessica and other horsepeople, can have differing well informed opinions.
Sincerely hoping that the surgery is successful and the buyer ends up with a horse she can ride.
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I still can’t believe this argument is still going on. The seller was not being shady somebody would have bought this horse if Amos didn’t. She posted multiple videos showing bad behavior which to most of us is obviously PAIN related! If the buyer didn’t see that then that is on her regardless of what the seller say. If you are standing in front of a giraffe and the seller says it’s an elephant do you just believe her? And if you do not know the difference between those 2 animals bring somebody with you who does. This is no different then buying a used car you have to do your due diligence.
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THANK YOU! I was thinking the same.
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Agreed. I can’t say that it’s clear to me what the OP wants.
If it’s an apology for not returning a phone call, then be very, very plain that this is the goal.
Everything else about this horse and this sale is over and done with.
Buyer beware, caveat emptor.
Take a friend who won’t be awed by the gorgeous big flashy horse.
Get an extensive PPE, especially on a horse whose tail is an angry windmill at the canter, propping and stabbing his hinds and being all out of sorts.
Wash and repeat.
I very much hope the surgery is a success. He’s a big pretty thing and looks like he tries hard to get along with the requests he finds painful.
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that’s even scarier if she truly believed that!
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I’ve bought two horses from Jess and know at least a dozen others who have also bought from her. All exactly as represented, all vetted to the buyers satisfaction – ranging from not at all to xraying everything. This buyer lied right at the start – said she had a trainer and a program for a horse Jess clearly said needed one and she didn’t. Her credibility is zero.
Sorry you have to deal with this Jess. Sorry the horse ended up in a place I know you would not have knowingly put him if the buyer had been straight with you.
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oh so now HSH blake has Kissing spine?
If he does, think about the amount of care and money that horse is getting pumped into him.
Us average ammies (ya know, the ones ruining the sport and horses 
) don’t have $300 a day to spend on massage, PEMF, aquacisers etc etc.
We don’t have the resources to have our horses have body work done daily and before and after rides. I’m sure that matters.
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Credibility is 0 on the person selling a pro ride to someone who hasn’t ridden in ten years (program or not) and riding an obviously LAME horse.
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