Benchmark Sporthorses?

[Amos]

Looking back, I don’t feel he got better through the rides. I feel the first rider is a bit stronger and asked more of him than the second. Both are wonderful riders, but Ms. Iacono Wilson asked more and he reacted more.

I didn’t think she was a liar at first either, hence the reason I reached out to her, multiple times. Again, contrary to what some might believe, I never contacted her with aggression. I never released details, frankly for my own benefit. I’m not prepping her response. “Hello, it’s X, I purchased X from you. I would appreciate a call back.”

What did I expect?

1. I expected her to be an adult, a professional, and return a phone call on likely her highest priced sale. Don’t know that for a fact, but he was well above the Benchmark 5K special.
2. I expected her to take off her rose-colored glasses if she really believed he was sound, because she is putting her riders’ safety at risk, as well as that of the potential buyer/trainer.

I’m not sure what more I expected, but I was willing to listen. Tell me your version. Tell me how you’ve seen these KS horses treated. Tell me something crazy, so I think you are nuts and not malignant. Unclear, but I was willing to listen.

I would like for her to stop passing off her incautious “expert” notions of KS being some amorphous condition that a horse can be trained out of and that no vet can see on clinical exam. She has a following and people believe her take on KS which clearly suits her needs as a broker (or “rehomer” as she prefers).

Contrary to many of these posts, I do take responsibility for my part. I made so many mistakes I would never let a close friend buying a horse make. That said, I do not absolve the seller of her responsibility as a professional and a self-proclaimed expert. She takes no ownership in selling a dangerous horse. Not a lick.

Again I offer, would it have been OK for me to resell him and cut my losses after what I as an amateur, observed in person (Unseating or near-unseating of a professional rider, no XRs on file, and I was told it’s training…same as Ms. Redman)?

Maybe it’s hard to confer the difference between what was seen on the sales videos vs in-person. I do not believe his KS progressed or his behavior changed in 1 month (timeframe from last Benchmark video to him starting with my trainer). I would love to post the video of him on the line. I am an amateur and when I saw it, I called the vet without second thought. Why didn’t a professional, self-proclaimed expert do the same?

[FrittSkritt]

@libgrrl

I’d still like an option for those of us who would like a horse for sport but want something sub-“mid fives” and work closely with a trainer that can do ottbs. That is becoming more and more scarce. And crazy teenagers on Facebook that stumble upon a tb and “teach it to jump” by racing it at a 2`9 raised pole on sketchy wobbly standards in the backyard isn’t what I’m looking for. I’d rather not “fix” that horrible training.

Yes, this. Unfortunately there are very few in-between sources out there, and the OTTB reseller market seems to have exploded in the past 5-10 years, leading to a lot of people who should absolutely not be in the business… for example:

There’s a girl who boarded at my barn (who(m?) I had to kick out for many reasons, one of them being because her boyfriend pulled a knife on my barn worker) who has hung a shingle out as an “experienced trainer” and is restarting OTTBs when she literally has zero experience doing so. She is absolutely the kind of backyard rider you’re referring to (horse bolting at jumps, head flinging everywhere) but the scary part is she has a barn and client base, and people are buying from her.

[K_VanOlst]

@beowulf

You may have experience selling horses with KS, but I have to ask you - do you have experience keeping that horse sound its entire life, maintaining and keeping it sound in while in moderate+ work, rehabbing the physiological aspect of KS, rehabbing the behavioral issues from from chronic pain, rehabbing any/all surgical interventions, or riding and training a KS horse in a competitive discipline?

Have you ever rehabbed a horse from the bone shave surgery? Lig snip? Did you get to compete it? How long was it in work? Did any other lameness sideline it?

Or are you basing your opinion on the snapshot you glimpse when you temporarily have a young, fit horse in your program who hasn’t yet hit the prime age KS is most often diagnosed?

Just because you have experienced horses in your program being diagnosed with the disease, in no way makes you an expert of the disease and its long term impact on the horse.

You speak with such authority on this subject (“out of anyone I have more experience with KS than most”) when to my knowledge, you aren’t the one keeping these horses their whole lives and keeping them sound enough in mind and body to be competitive. This part of your posts — and many others on the forum and FB — get my back up because it completely invalidates the reality most KS owners experience - which is a miserable, unrideable horse.

This.

[TWilson]

@Amos

Emotional, I disagree. It’s been quite a few months. If I were to have posted when he was diagnosed, that would have been emotional. The OP asked about experiences with this seller. This is my experience.

I think you are confusing a tricky or hot horse with a lame horse. Tricky or hot horses can be trained and ridden safely. Lame horses can’t. You can’t train pain out of a horse.

The seller is at fault as am I. I was stupid, thick rose-colored glasses. She was dishonest. Her own vet says she failed to disclose the behavior this horse was exhibiting when said vet directly asked her. That in and of itself is misrepresentation.

You may believe that a seller, who touts her expertise often (on Kissing Spine as well, right here on this thread) and admits to selling 1000+ horses, didn’t see a painful horse. I disagree and I think she put her own riders in danger for a dollar. That’s my opinion. If she didn’t, her rose-colored glasses are way thicker than mine and that needs remedied for her own riders’ safety.

You say I lied or misled the seller about having a program for the horse. The horse went to the trainer’s barn directly from the seller’s barn. If that wasn’t lined up, how did it happen? I never claimed I had ridden with the trainer for years, quite the contrary. Was very upfront in stating I had recently moved to the area. I never told Ms. Redman the trainer was involved in the sale. If she was actively involved in the sale Ms. Redman surely would have known, she would have spoken to her. As well, I went so far as to offer Ms. Redman the trainer’s contact information. Not sure where that’s not full disclosure.

That you purport I have taken no responsibility is a false narrative. You actually went so far as to quote me taking responsibility in another post. Not sure what more to say on that. Funny, Ms Redman has posted on this thread multiple times, I haven’t seen her take any responsibility.

You infer quite a bit,
That I said “whatever she felt she needed to say to get the seller to sell her the horse.” I didn’t claim to be professional. Didn’t claim to be riding the Grand Prix. Didn’t even claim to be riding at the time. She was told straight out that I was an amateur coming off a 10+ year hiatus.
You even infer as to when after purchase I first contacted Ms Redman, which you are also wrong about.

Yes, emotional. None of this is helping to change my opinion of this matter - I stand by everything I’ve said. Buying horses is always risky; buying horses on the internet as an amateur with no professional support is the absolute riskiest way to go about it.

[trubandloki]

@TWilson

Yes, emotional. None of this is helping to change my opinion of this matter - I stand by everything I’ve said. Buying horses is always risky; buying horses on the internet as an amateur with no professional support is the absolute riskiest way to go about it.

I do not disagree with you at all.
It is crazy risky.

I continue to be shocked by us, as horse people, are OK with that fact and are so willing to defend those who make it that.

No, I do not expect this seller to take this horse back or any of that. But this seller does represent themselves as something they are clearly not, and I that is not OK with me.

We (horse people) should want to support sellers being as honest as possible. Not pummel buyers for not going to the moon and back.

This buyer for sure made lots of mistakes. The buyer admits to making lots of mistakes. That does not negate the mistakes the seller made, mistakes that seemed to be intentional.

[McGurk]

@beowulf,

I appreciate the kind words, and I feel much the same regarding your posts.

I think our area of disagreement lies in what it is reasonable to expect from a seller.

Give that Jessica does this in addition to a full time job, does it at a pretty high volume and has a book of satisfied clients, I think expecting more of her as a seller isn’t reasonable. I also am very conscious that the service she provides is incredibly valuable and increasingly scarce. I think people like Jessica are absolutely critical to good endings for lots of OTTBs.

Your view, if I understand it correctly, is that the seller should have assumed the behavior under saddle was pain related and had a vet work up before offering the horse for sale? And that would have prevented this whole sad tale? In a perfect world, yes, I think that’s what should have happened. But for someone who moves the volume of horses through her barn that she does? I just can’t get to that being a reasonable expectation. If it becomes an expectation in the industry, you’ll see a lot fewer resellers and a lot higher prices.

If I had taken a client to look at Final Deception, based on the videos, I would have either advised the client to wait until he had been in work longer to see how the horse progressed, knowing we might lose the horse. I would never have let a client purchase a horse that she hadn’t ridden. No way, no how. The fit or suitability is everything for most ammys. If we proceeded with a PPE, I would have insisted the horse be ridden in front of the PPE vet, and I would have insisted on back xrays. I would have also shared the videos and the xrays with my own vet. I also routinely advised clients not to buy a horse for me to ride; but to buy a horse for themselves to ride. Needing a pro ride once a week to tune a horse up? Sure. Having your trainer ride the first week on a new horse? Sure, that’s smart. Buying a horse that has to be in a full time training program indefinitely? Crazy for an ammy re-rider. Add in the no previous relationship to the trainer, as in, I’m buying a horse for a stranger to ride and bill me for it? Crazier still.

Final thoughts: I don’t agree with everything Jessica says about KS, but I respect it’s an opinion based on her extensive experience. I do think thinking about KS is going to evolve, much like the thinking about navicular in the 70s and 80s, and that bad xrays absent clinical signs are not going to be considered a major reservation. (Yes, of course, this horse did have clinical signs.) I’m not going to discount her opinion simply because it doesn’t align perfectly with mine.

Reasonable people, like you and me, can have differing informed opinions. Reasonable people, like Jessica and other horsepeople, can have differing well informed opinions.

Sincerely hoping that the surgery is successful and the buyer ends up with a horse she can ride.

[steelerino]

I still can’t believe this argument is still going on. The seller was not being shady somebody would have bought this horse if Amos didn’t. She posted multiple videos showing bad behavior which to most of us is obviously PAIN related! If the buyer didn’t see that then that is on her regardless of what the seller say. If you are standing in front of a giraffe and the seller says it’s an elephant do you just believe her? And if you do not know the difference between those 2 animals bring somebody with you who does. This is no different then buying a used car you have to do your due diligence.

[fivestrideline]

@steelerino

I still can’t believe this argument is still going on. The seller was not being shady somebody would have bought this horse if Amos didn’t. She posted multiple videos showing bad behavior which to most of us is obviously PAIN related! If the buyer didn’t see that then that is on her regardless of what the seller say. If you are standing in front of a giraffe and the seller says it’s an elephant do you just believe her? And if you do not know the difference between those 2 animals bring somebody with you who does. This is no different then buying a used car you have to do your due diligence.

THANK YOU! I was thinking the same.

[Djones]

@fivestrideline

THANK YOU! I was thinking the same.

Agreed. I can’t say that it’s clear to me what the OP wants.

If it’s an apology for not returning a phone call, then be very, very plain that this is the goal.

Everything else about this horse and this sale is over and done with.
Buyer beware, caveat emptor.
Take a friend who won’t be awed by the gorgeous big flashy horse.
Get an extensive PPE, especially on a horse whose tail is an angry windmill at the canter, propping and stabbing his hinds and being all out of sorts.

Wash and repeat.

I very much hope the surgery is a success. He’s a big pretty thing and looks like he tries hard to get along with the requests he finds painful.

[Jealoushe]

that’s even scarier if she truly believed that!

[kt-rose]

I’ve bought two horses from Jess and know at least a dozen others who have also bought from her. All exactly as represented, all vetted to the buyers satisfaction – ranging from not at all to xraying everything. This buyer lied right at the start – said she had a trainer and a program for a horse Jess clearly said needed one and she didn’t. Her credibility is zero.

Sorry you have to deal with this Jess. Sorry the horse ended up in a place I know you would not have knowingly put him if the buyer had been straight with you.

[Jealoushe]

oh so now HSH blake has Kissing spine?

If he does, think about the amount of care and money that horse is getting pumped into him.

Us average ammies (ya know, the ones ruining the sport and horses ) don’t have $300 a day to spend on massage, PEMF, aquacisers etc etc.

We don’t have the resources to have our horses have body work done daily and before and after rides. I’m sure that matters.

[Jealoushe]

@kt-rose

I’ve bought two horses from Jess and know at least a dozen others who have also bought from her. All exactly as represented, all vetted to the buyers satisfaction – ranging from not at all to xraying everything. This buyer lied right at the start – said she had a trainer and a program for a horse Jess clearly said needed one and she didn’t. Her credibility is zero.

Sorry you have to deal with this Jess. Sorry the horse ended up in a place I know you would not have knowingly put him if the buyer had been straight with you.

Credibility is 0 on the person selling a pro ride to someone who hasn’t ridden in ten years (program or not) and riding an obviously LAME horse.

[kt-rose]

Not interested in arguing…I said what I said and meant what I said…and I said it from a reasonable level of experience. I’m out as I just wanted to share what amount to many years of good experiences with Jessica Redman – I sent her a difficult horse for training back before she was selling a lot of horses off the track, probably 2010 or 11. She did a great job and that horse is still hunting for her happy buyer. At every moment I have dealt with Jess she has been honest and straightforward…but then, so was I.

[Texarkana]

This thread is exactly why I stopped flipping TBs nearly 20 years ago.

There’s no need to take sides. There is no “good guy” or “bad guy” in this situation. Horses are imperfect. People are imperfect. Sure, there are things one side or the other could have done differently. But nobody was being deliberately deceptive in this transaction. It didn’t work out the way anyone hoped… that’s unfortunately horses.

There’s a whole lot more to lose going forward in how both the buyer and seller conduct themselves from this point onward.

[Bogie]

@libgrrl

I don’t want to discourage the “Jessicas” in this sport. We still need folks to source the good ones from the track. In my day (1000 years ago ) they were our trainers.

I’d still like an option for those of us who would like a horse for sport but want something sub-“mid fives” and work closely with a trainer that can do ottbs. That is becoming more and more scarce.

As someone who was recently horse shopping, let me echo this sentiment. It is SO hard to find a nice, affordable horse. I’ve had 4 OTTBs in the past it was always a great way to find nice horses on smaller budgets. I appreciate the folks who go to the track and cherry pick the ones that can go on to excel at other disciplines.

This time, having spent a year working with an OTTB that I finally concluded wasn’t suitable for 63-yr old me, I bought a horse that was at the higher end of my budget and more suitable for where I am in my life, but the opportunity to find horses that are not 10K+ is a great service for people who want to put the training into them.

Edited to add: When I realized this horse was not going to work for me, I offered to give him back to the seller (for free). She turned me down and blamed me for the behavior issues I had encountered. Not every seller will take a horse back. I had rehabbed the horse, who was significantly underweight when I got him (to the point where you couldn’t put a saddle on him because he was so thin). Once he was stronger and healthier, he started to challenge me in ways that I no longer wanted to ride through. And yes, I worked with a trainer and had someone help me restart him.

[trubandloki]

@kt-rose

This buyer lied right at the start – said she had a trainer and a program for a horse Jess clearly said needed one and she didn’t. Her credibility is zero.

This is what you are hanging your hat on to demonize the buyer?

The seller admits the buyer told her all the same things that the buyer told her, that she was getting back into horses and the horse was going to a trainer. Which is 100% what happened.

The buyer was not in a program because the buyer had no horse.

@kt-rose, what is your thought on how the way this horse moved being described the way it was?

I think it is great that you have many years of good experience with this flipper. That is for sure a good thing. That does not negate the failures with this horse.

@Texarkana

But nobody was being deliberately deceptive in this transaction

Intentionally clueless, maybe?

I keep wondering how someone so very experienced as this flipper could take this horse from a friend (not off the track) and not see that there is something more than training going on.

I also do not get why this flipper did not follow all those things they brag about them doing. Wanting the horse to have the right home, wanting to make sure the horse lands properly, etc. when they knew the situation of the OP. This ammy who has not ridden in 10 years did not force this seller to sell them a horse.

[Texarkana]

@trubandloki

I keep wondering how someone so very experienced as this flipper could take this horse from a friend (not off the track) and not see that there is something more than training going on.

I can’t answer that question but I can say if I had a dollar for every horse I watched that appeared to be NQR, I’d be very wealthy.

I understand why people are saying this. I watched the videos and see it, too. But hindsight is 20/20. It’s easy to finger point now that we know the horse is having issues, but I have a hunch that if the buyer had posted the video of the horse pre-purchase on COTH and asked for opinions, probably 50% of the posters would be claiming unsoundness while the other 50% would be providing perfectly valid reasons why the movement would be a non-issue.

Working “soundness” is not black and white. Sure, you can analyze the movement and ascertain if you see a shortness or inconsistency, but for every horse who goes on to be a useless cripple with that movement, there is a horse who goes on to get over it or never complain.

[trubandloki]

@Texarkana

but I have a hunch that if the buyer had posted the video of the horse pre-purchase on COTH and asked for opinions, probably 50% of the posters would be claiming unsoundness while the other 50% would be providing perfectly valid reasons why the movement would be a non-issue.

One of the things I like about COTH is they are very strong leaning towards making sure the horse is healthy enough for the work first.

[BabyBays]

I fully understand why the videos of this horse set off some warning bells. However, what I don’t understand is why the seller would be totally put on blast for this when the PPE vet “passed” the horse. Why do we expect it would have been a different experience for the seller working with a vet? It sounds like the seller did an X-ray on an obvious visible finding. Yet if the horse flexed sound and palpitated fine, why would the seller then be expected to perform back X-rays blindly, especially if the horse was exhibiting progress?

I have seen this seller write forthcoming posts about horses with dangerous behaviors. My impression is that she is not against giving a dangerous horse a humane end if it means keeping both horse and human safe. I would imagine if the horse was exhibiting the same dangerous gymnastics the buyer described after the horse was purchased, she would not have put her riders on it. Reading the buyer’s perspective here, it seems skewed based on behaviors she saw after the horse arrived and not how the horse was going while at the seller’s.

Obviously these are all assumptions and regardless of my feelings on her thoughts on KS, I don’t believe she thought this horse was truly dangerous and we are all looking at this from the lens of hindsight. I personally don’t think either party is fully in the right or wrong here, just an unfortunate situation all around. I’m very glad the horse at least found a home where the owner is doing right by him.