Benchmark Sporthorses?

[Sticky_Situation]

The more the buyer posts and rants, the less sympathy I feel for her.

What exactly is she expecting from the seller? Is she wanting her to self-flagellate on social media and say “yes I lied and knowingly sold you an unsound horse for a higher-than-usual price, and I completely fabricated my beliefs on kissing spine exclusively to cover my ass in this situation and avoid responsibility! I’m so so sorry, I’m a terrible person, here’s all your money back plus the cost of his surgery and a little extra for your pain and suffering”???

How does not seeing the lameness/pain behavior make the buyer a victim, but the seller a villain with no ethics?

If she truly thinks the seller was in cahoots with the vet, or the vet did only a very cursory exam and ignored signs of pain because the seller said “no, he doesn’t have behavior problems” then IMO the vet, as the one who has a professional obligation to be impartial, is the one more deserving of her anger.

I’m glad the buyer is trying to do right by the horse now and that’s the most important thing to me, but the ranting and blame game seems unproductive.

[Blugal]

Some really hard lessons to learn in horses:

• they will disappoint you

• they’ll go lame even if they were sound

• there are no guarantees

• once it’s yours, it’s your problem. There are lots of horses for sale, choose carefully.

• knowing when to cut your losses

• realizing your limitations, and when you are or aren’t having fun

I’m not aiming these at anyone in particular. As an AA myself, I’ve had some bad experiences too, and learned some of the above lessons the hard/expensive way.

@Amos, it sounds like you are trying to rehab this horse. From a complete outsider’s point of view, I wonder if that’s worthwhile. With the KS being as bad as it is, are you sure you want to fund a year or two or three of “working through the rehab” and hoping that you maybe will get to ride your horse someday? Will you be fearful of getting bucked off, after the way he injured your trainer? I can tell you, been there, done that, it was NOT fun, and I swore if this sort of situation came up again, I’d cut my losses so much sooner.

[Jealoushe]

I feel I am extremely well versed in soundness vs strength balance body etc.

That horse was LAME. He was just a good boy who kept trying.

We know he was lame because the OP has all the facts. Those of us that see a lame horse DID see something wrong with him, which there was.

No one is saying the seller is a villain, but that horse shouldn’t have been under saddle at all until he was sound and happy.

[Marigold]

@Jealoushe

oh so now HSH blake has Kissing spine?

I didn’t know Blake was a part of this - did I miss a post? That said, as an example Twilightslastgleam definitely does. Jennie was very open about it in her interview after his Kentucky run. I don’t know to what extent, or what they do to manage it, but she’s been crystal clear that’s an issue he has.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-the-stall-door-with-twilightslastgleam/

As others have said, I think it comes down to the definition of a sound horse. I am not level jogging in a straight line, but I go to the gym and throw around heavy weights and I am not in pain when I am doing it. I’m also able to convince myself that my horse is lame or dying on seven out of every seven days in a week, but she’s continued to do her job at quite a high level and looks darn pleased with herself when she does, so…? (Please tell me I’m not the only one that does this).

“Sound” is a judgement call that we all make, and most of us try to make it by taking into account information from our vet, our farrier, the bodyworkers, but mostly we just have to listen to the horse. As Jennie says, you don’t ride the xrays. It would be a lot easier if they could talk, but until that day comes that listening is going to be interpretive to a certain extent. The vast majority of us are trying with everything we have to do our best by the horses that trust us.

[beowulf]

Always enjoy your responses. I’m not sure what the perfect situation would be. I agree it’s unreasonable - or really, untenable - for a horse flipper to extensively vet every horse in their program. I agree with you the responsibility is on the buyer to do their own clinical exam if they deem it necessary.

Both parties made mistakes. . It’s human to make mistakes. We’ve all made mistakes at some point that indirectly harmed a horse. It’s how both parties learn from these mistakes, and handle themselves going forward. If they continue to repeat these mistakes, then they are not mistakes - they are patterns.

Amos is not the first and she will not be the last to purchase an actively symptomatic KS horse from Benchmark - KS being what it is, racing being what it is. It’s my earnest hope that Jessica (and others) can look back on Final Deception’s videos and say “oh yeah - now I understand why cantering was so hard for him”, or “oh, now I understand why he felt tricky in the contact”.

I just think of how extraordinary it would be for all her future horses if she learned to identify these symptoms instead of handwaving the disease and calling buyers nitpicky for not wanting to deal with KS.

She now can be armed with the knowledge of knowing what a symptomatic KS horse looks like.

[hb]

So in this article they describe Twilightslastgleam as kicked out of a program for bucking everyone off, has to be mounted carefully or he’ll dump the rider, then say “you don’t ride the x-rays”. It’s confusing to me whether they connected the dots between the “quirky” behavior and the kissing spine right under the saddle?

Yes, a very skilled rider with a lot of support was able to get top-level performance out of this horse, but that doesn’t mean the kissing spine has had no impact on him, or that the average rider looking buying a horse should ignore kissing spine in a prospect.

It absolutely doesn’t mean that kissing spine isn’t a real issue and that x-rays should be disregarded.

ps I’m replying to Marigold’s comment because they linked the article, I’m not intending to say Marigold thinks x-rays should be disregarded.

[Fiesta01]

@Sister7

As someone who is currently shopping for a horse directly off the track, I really like her videos and wish there was a reseller like her closer to me.

Would I have, by any chance, met you in an ER situation in the last couple of days? If so, I have some information on a reputable seller of just off the track OTTBs in our area. PM me if this is who I think it might be.

[barnesthenoble]

@Amos

I expected her to be an adult, a professional, and return a phone call on likely her highest priced sale. Don’t know that for a fact, but he was well above the Benchmark 5K special.

I can assure you he was not her highest priced sale, not by a longshot. Yes, he was priced higher than the typical horses she sells, but not in the top bracket of what she lists.

I think in your anger there is some significant inflation of what you believe to be the reality of her business. I understand, you’re upset and pissed and out a ton of money. But these frankly incorrect conjectures you’ve made (600 horses a year, 10k horses, highest priced sale, etc) do not help your reception here. They do, however, make you look very (understandably, IMO) emotional about it all.

I really have nothing further to add regarding this horse specifically that I haven’t already said upthread. I do echo much of what @McGurk has said, their perspective is very similar to mine.

I have and manage two KS horses and see both sides of this issue. One of them has very mild remodeling on two processes, but overall seems comfortable, though he does have a litany of other issues that ultimately retired him from serious work at 10. Do I think slight remodeling, not even touching, is the cause of the shot hocks, suspensory injuries, and SI injury? Or maybe those are what contributed to the remodeling? Dunno.

The other has really gnarly back rads on three processes, but is comfortable with a saddle he likes and has been for the past several years. He’s 11 coming 12. We shot the rads a couple years ago while trying to figure out a crabbiness issue that wound up being hindgut discomfort. A round of Succeed and a slight diet change two years ago and he’s a happy camper. Follow up back rads from this year show no further changes. He is sensitive about his front feet being comfy, but that is as much because he came off the track with some of the most horrifying shoeing I’ve ever seen, and he does have some coffin bone loss from that. He’s quite happy in his boots and pads.

I’ve worked with vets who freak out about KS and vets who think its hugely overblown. Some even work in the same practice or major teaching hospital I just don’t think there is a simple answer to the KS issue, or that it as cut and dry in either direction as some folks seem to think.

Either way, I wish this horse the best of luck.

[Marigold]

@hb

So in this article they describe Twilightslastgleam as kicked out of a program for bucking everyone off, has to be mounted carefully or he’ll dump the rider, then say “you don’t ride the x-rays”. It’s confusing to me whether they connected the dots between the “quirky” behavior and the kissing spine right under the saddle?

Yes, a very skilled rider with a lot of support was able to get top-level performance out of this horse, but that doesn’t mean the kissing spine has had no impact on him, or that the average rider looking buying a horse should ignore kissing spine in a prospect.

To be clear, you are absolutely right I am not saying to disregard xrays. And I agree with you that I think the behaviour described is very likely related to the diagnosis.

That said, “management practices” do not have to be high dollar and inaccessible therapies (though I’m sure Jennie makes good use of whatever she can to keep this horse happy in his work). They describe a specific method of mounting, where the horse would stay relaxed if they swung a leg over slowly and did not touch his sides too soon or too quickly. She mentions in another article (here: https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/free-rein-with-jennie-saville/) that they gave him a year off when his back started to fuse.

Am I saying that it is easy to own these horses, or that they are not impacted in any way by a diagnosis? No. But it is clear that with careful management and by listening to the horse and what it needs, there are ways to help them (or some of them, every horse is different) be comfortable enough to work happily even at quite a high level - which is what I would call “sound”. It feels very similar to my own soundness. I can hold up to the demands of my daily life happily, but in order to do that I get regular bodywork, I do strength and cardio training, and I know that if I miss more than a day or two of some specific stretches for my back I’m going to put myself in a bad place. I manage myself, and because I do, I am happy and comfortable completing my work for the day. I believe our animals are much the same.

[endlessclimb]

My issue with it is that the horse is obviously lame. You can’t say that a right hind lameness is behavioral, can you?

Is it that sellers genuinely don’t see it, or do they hope that someone will come along who doesn’t?

[CBoylen]

Everyone saying that the horse was lame, please remember that the pre-purchase veterinarian chosen by the buyer, declared it sound. No matter how experienced, a seller (any seller) cannot offer any guarantees that an animal is sound, that is up to a qualified veterinarian to decide on a given day. You can harp on the seller for not seeing what you see as a lameness, but the vet didn’t see it either. Professionals can definitely have as many blind spots when it comes to lameness as others, but it’s a bit unfair to expect them to be better at spotting lameness than the vet.

[endlessclimb]

That’s fair. But then the seller shouldn’t claim the horse is sound, if they admittedly can’t see it.

[Jealoushe]

oh I mentioned in my post about the lameness that people around the OP failed too (vet, etc)

[Jealoushe]

@Jleegriffith

I just listened to a podcast with an Olympic rider who does a ton of sales/imports where she talks about how many have kissing spine and how the industry is going to need to decide what it means. I suspect it could be why her Olympic horse was passed on in several ppes😉

This was the post where I guessed it was HSH Blake, not Jennie’s horse. Jennie is not an Olympian.

[endlessclimb]

@CBoylen

pre-purchase veterinarian chosen by the buyer, declared it sound

I’d also like to state that I have never - in countless lameness exams between the horses I’ve owned and managed - had a vet state “sound or not sound.” The PPE is not pass-fail. It’s up to the vet and the buyer to determine if any findings will preclude the horse from the intended workload. But the vet will not state GO or NO GO for liability reasons.

[CBoylen]

Yes, with findings. But a vet will always indicate if a horse is lame at the time of the exam during the undersaddle or in hand portion.

[MadTrotter]

Yep. They never use that word. I just had a PPE by a top soundness expert and the verbiage he used was: “horse as presents today is suitable for intended use in fox hunting and eventing”. Specific findings were noted like this:

[endlessclimb]

Not in my experience, they would just give the grade and leave the purchaser to read between the lines.

We don’t have insight into what the horse looked like for the PPE. He is 100% consistently lame right hind in the ridden videos, though. Left takes some weird steps here and there, but right is nearly all the time.

[CBoylen]

If the horse is not sound, your notes are going to say “unsound to the right undertack” or something like “1/5 RF going right undersaddle” If they are unsound for the jog in hand before the flexions, the vet is going to say “it’s not sound, do you want to keep going?”. They are not going to declare it sound for a purpose, but if it’s lame it’s going to be noted.
If you think your vet is going to watch a horse go under tack or on the lunge or in hand and not note a lameness, while leaving you to make your decision by weeding through the flexion results, I’m pretty sure you should be using another vet.

[barnesthenoble]

@endlessclimb

Not in my experience, they would just give the grade and leave the purchaser to read between the lines.

All the vettings I’ve done (which admittedly is not a huge number, but it’s been across a variety of practices and regions) the vet has mentioned a lameness that is grossly apparent. Results on flexions are different–a horse that flexes a little positive will be noted with a grade like you mention and then discussed. But a horse that presents as “100% consistently lame” pre-flexion, or post flexion on a circle/under saddle? You bet they’ve told me outright and included in the notes “horse unsound/lame doing xyz at this time.” This is also consistent with what I’ve heard from friends who’ve done PPEs.