Not interested in arguing…I said what I said and meant what I said…and I said it from a reasonable level of experience. I’m out as I just wanted to share what amount to many years of good experiences with Jessica Redman – I sent her a difficult horse for training back before she was selling a lot of horses off the track, probably 2010 or 11. She did a great job and that horse is still hunting for her happy buyer. At every moment I have dealt with Jess she has been honest and straightforward…but then, so was I.
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This thread is exactly why I stopped flipping TBs nearly 20 years ago. 
There’s no need to take sides. There is no “good guy” or “bad guy” in this situation. Horses are imperfect. People are imperfect. Sure, there are things one side or the other could have done differently. But nobody was being deliberately deceptive in this transaction. It didn’t work out the way anyone hoped… that’s unfortunately horses.
There’s a whole lot more to lose going forward in how both the buyer and seller conduct themselves from this point onward.
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As someone who was recently horse shopping, let me echo this sentiment. It is SO hard to find a nice, affordable horse. I’ve had 4 OTTBs in the past it was always a great way to find nice horses on smaller budgets. I appreciate the folks who go to the track and cherry pick the ones that can go on to excel at other disciplines.
This time, having spent a year working with an OTTB that I finally concluded wasn’t suitable for 63-yr old me, I bought a horse that was at the higher end of my budget and more suitable for where I am in my life, but the opportunity to find horses that are not 10K+ is a great service for people who want to put the training into them.
Edited to add: When I realized this horse was not going to work for me, I offered to give him back to the seller (for free). She turned me down and blamed me for the behavior issues I had encountered. Not every seller will take a horse back. I had rehabbed the horse, who was significantly underweight when I got him (to the point where you couldn’t put a saddle on him because he was so thin). Once he was stronger and healthier, he started to challenge me in ways that I no longer wanted to ride through. And yes, I worked with a trainer and had someone help me restart him.
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This is what you are hanging your hat on to demonize the buyer?
The seller admits the buyer told her all the same things that the buyer told her, that she was getting back into horses and the horse was going to a trainer. Which is 100% what happened.
The buyer was not in a program because the buyer had no horse.
@kt-rose, what is your thought on how the way this horse moved being described the way it was?
I think it is great that you have many years of good experience with this flipper. That is for sure a good thing. That does not negate the failures with this horse.
Intentionally clueless, maybe?
I keep wondering how someone so very experienced as this flipper could take this horse from a friend (not off the track) and not see that there is something more than training going on.
I also do not get why this flipper did not follow all those things they brag about them doing. Wanting the horse to have the right home, wanting to make sure the horse lands properly, etc. when they knew the situation of the OP. This ammy who has not ridden in 10 years did not force this seller to sell them a horse.
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I can’t answer that question but I can say if I had a dollar for every horse I watched that appeared to be NQR, I’d be very wealthy. 
I understand why people are saying this. I watched the videos and see it, too. But hindsight is 20/20. It’s easy to finger point now that we know the horse is having issues, but I have a hunch that if the buyer had posted the video of the horse pre-purchase on COTH and asked for opinions, probably 50% of the posters would be claiming unsoundness while the other 50% would be providing perfectly valid reasons why the movement would be a non-issue.
Working “soundness” is not black and white. Sure, you can analyze the movement and ascertain if you see a shortness or inconsistency, but for every horse who goes on to be a useless cripple with that movement, there is a horse who goes on to get over it or never complain.
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One of the things I like about COTH is they are very strong leaning towards making sure the horse is healthy enough for the work first.
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I fully understand why the videos of this horse set off some warning bells. However, what I don’t understand is why the seller would be totally put on blast for this when the PPE vet “passed” the horse. Why do we expect it would have been a different experience for the seller working with a vet? It sounds like the seller did an X-ray on an obvious visible finding. Yet if the horse flexed sound and palpitated fine, why would the seller then be expected to perform back X-rays blindly, especially if the horse was exhibiting progress?
I have seen this seller write forthcoming posts about horses with dangerous behaviors. My impression is that she is not against giving a dangerous horse a humane end if it means keeping both horse and human safe. I would imagine if the horse was exhibiting the same dangerous gymnastics the buyer described after the horse was purchased, she would not have put her riders on it. Reading the buyer’s perspective here, it seems skewed based on behaviors she saw after the horse arrived and not how the horse was going while at the seller’s.
Obviously these are all assumptions and regardless of my feelings on her thoughts on KS, I don’t believe she thought this horse was truly dangerous and we are all looking at this from the lens of hindsight. I personally don’t think either party is fully in the right or wrong here, just an unfortunate situation all around. I’m very glad the horse at least found a home where the owner is doing right by him.
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The more the buyer posts and rants, the less sympathy I feel for her.
What exactly is she expecting from the seller? Is she wanting her to self-flagellate on social media and say “yes I lied and knowingly sold you an unsound horse for a higher-than-usual price, and I completely fabricated my beliefs on kissing spine exclusively to cover my ass in this situation and avoid responsibility! I’m so so sorry, I’m a terrible person, here’s all your money back plus the cost of his surgery and a little extra for your pain and suffering”???
How does not seeing the lameness/pain behavior make the buyer a victim, but the seller a villain with no ethics?
If she truly thinks the seller was in cahoots with the vet, or the vet did only a very cursory exam and ignored signs of pain because the seller said “no, he doesn’t have behavior problems” then IMO the vet, as the one who has a professional obligation to be impartial, is the one more deserving of her anger.
I’m glad the buyer is trying to do right by the horse now and that’s the most important thing to me, but the ranting and blame game seems unproductive.
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Some really hard lessons to learn in horses:
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they will disappoint you
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they’ll go lame even if they were sound
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there are no guarantees
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once it’s yours, it’s your problem. There are lots of horses for sale, choose carefully.
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knowing when to cut your losses
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realizing your limitations, and when you are or aren’t having fun
I’m not aiming these at anyone in particular. As an AA myself, I’ve had some bad experiences too, and learned some of the above lessons the hard/expensive way.
@Amos, it sounds like you are trying to rehab this horse. From a complete outsider’s point of view, I wonder if that’s worthwhile. With the KS being as bad as it is, are you sure you want to fund a year or two or three of “working through the rehab” and hoping that you maybe will get to ride your horse someday? Will you be fearful of getting bucked off, after the way he injured your trainer? I can tell you, been there, done that, it was NOT fun, and I swore if this sort of situation came up again, I’d cut my losses so much sooner.
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I feel I am extremely well versed in soundness vs strength balance body etc.
That horse was LAME. He was just a good boy who kept trying.
We know he was lame because the OP has all the facts. Those of us that see a lame horse DID see something wrong with him, which there was.
No one is saying the seller is a villain, but that horse shouldn’t have been under saddle at all until he was sound and happy.
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I didn’t know Blake was a part of this - did I miss a post? That said, as an example Twilightslastgleam definitely does. Jennie was very open about it in her interview after his Kentucky run. I don’t know to what extent, or what they do to manage it, but she’s been crystal clear that’s an issue he has.
https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-the-stall-door-with-twilightslastgleam/
As others have said, I think it comes down to the definition of a sound horse. I am not level jogging in a straight line, but I go to the gym and throw around heavy weights and I am not in pain when I am doing it. I’m also able to convince myself that my horse is lame or dying on seven out of every seven days in a week, but she’s continued to do her job at quite a high level and looks darn pleased with herself when she does, so…? (Please tell me I’m not the only one that does this).
“Sound” is a judgement call that we all make, and most of us try to make it by taking into account information from our vet, our farrier, the bodyworkers, but mostly we just have to listen to the horse. As Jennie says, you don’t ride the xrays. It would be a lot easier if they could talk, but until that day comes that listening is going to be interpretive to a certain extent. The vast majority of us are trying with everything we have to do our best by the horses that trust us.
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Always enjoy your responses. I’m not sure what the perfect situation would be. I agree it’s unreasonable - or really, untenable - for a horse flipper to extensively vet every horse in their program. I agree with you the responsibility is on the buyer to do their own clinical exam if they deem it necessary.
Both parties made mistakes. . It’s human to make mistakes. We’ve all made mistakes at some point that indirectly harmed a horse. It’s how both parties learn from these mistakes, and handle themselves going forward. If they continue to repeat these mistakes, then they are not mistakes - they are patterns.
Amos is not the first and she will not be the last to purchase an actively symptomatic KS horse from Benchmark - KS being what it is, racing being what it is. It’s my earnest hope that Jessica (and others) can look back on Final Deception’s videos and say “oh yeah - now I understand why cantering was so hard for him”, or “oh, now I understand why he felt tricky in the contact”.
I just think of how extraordinary it would be for all her future horses if she learned to identify these symptoms instead of handwaving the disease and calling buyers nitpicky for not wanting to deal with KS.
She now can be armed with the knowledge of knowing what a symptomatic KS horse looks like.
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So in this article they describe Twilightslastgleam as kicked out of a program for bucking everyone off, has to be mounted carefully or he’ll dump the rider, then say “you don’t ride the x-rays”. It’s confusing to me whether they connected the dots between the “quirky” behavior and the kissing spine right under the saddle?
Yes, a very skilled rider with a lot of support was able to get top-level performance out of this horse, but that doesn’t mean the kissing spine has had no impact on him, or that the average rider looking buying a horse should ignore kissing spine in a prospect.
It absolutely doesn’t mean that kissing spine isn’t a real issue and that x-rays should be disregarded.
ps I’m replying to Marigold’s comment because they linked the article, I’m not intending to say Marigold thinks x-rays should be disregarded.
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Would I have, by any chance, met you in an ER situation in the last couple of days? If so, I have some information on a reputable seller of just off the track OTTBs in our area. PM me if this is who I think it might be.
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I can assure you he was not her highest priced sale, not by a longshot. 
Yes, he was priced higher than the typical horses she sells, but not in the top bracket of what she lists.
I think in your anger there is some significant inflation of what you believe to be the reality of her business. I understand, you’re upset and pissed and out a ton of money. But these frankly incorrect conjectures you’ve made (600 horses a year, 10k horses, highest priced sale, etc) do not help your reception here. They do, however, make you look very (understandably, IMO) emotional about it all.
I really have nothing further to add regarding this horse specifically that I haven’t already said upthread. I do echo much of what @McGurk has said, their perspective is very similar to mine.
I have and manage two KS horses and see both sides of this issue. One of them has very mild remodeling on two processes, but overall seems comfortable, though he does have a litany of other issues that ultimately retired him from serious work at 10. Do I think slight remodeling, not even touching, is the cause of the shot hocks, suspensory injuries, and SI injury? Or maybe those are what contributed to the remodeling? Dunno.
The other has really gnarly back rads on three processes, but is comfortable with a saddle he likes and has been for the past several years. He’s 11 coming 12. We shot the rads a couple years ago while trying to figure out a crabbiness issue that wound up being hindgut discomfort. A round of Succeed and a slight diet change two years ago and he’s a happy camper. Follow up back rads from this year show no further changes. He is sensitive about his front feet being comfy, but that is as much because he came off the track with some of the most horrifying shoeing I’ve ever seen, and he does have some coffin bone loss from that. He’s quite happy in his boots and pads.
I’ve worked with vets who freak out about KS and vets who think its hugely overblown. Some even work in the same practice or major teaching hospital I just don’t think there is a simple answer to the KS issue, or that it as cut and dry in either direction as some folks seem to think.
Either way, I wish this horse the best of luck.
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To be clear, you are absolutely right I am not saying to disregard xrays. And I agree with you that I think the behaviour described is very likely related to the diagnosis.
That said, “management practices” do not have to be high dollar and inaccessible therapies (though I’m sure Jennie makes good use of whatever she can to keep this horse happy in his work). They describe a specific method of mounting, where the horse would stay relaxed if they swung a leg over slowly and did not touch his sides too soon or too quickly. She mentions in another article (here: https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/free-rein-with-jennie-saville/) that they gave him a year off when his back started to fuse.
Am I saying that it is easy to own these horses, or that they are not impacted in any way by a diagnosis? No. But it is clear that with careful management and by listening to the horse and what it needs, there are ways to help them (or some of them, every horse is different) be comfortable enough to work happily even at quite a high level - which is what I would call “sound”. It feels very similar to my own soundness. I can hold up to the demands of my daily life happily, but in order to do that I get regular bodywork, I do strength and cardio training, and I know that if I miss more than a day or two of some specific stretches for my back I’m going to put myself in a bad place. I manage myself, and because I do, I am happy and comfortable completing my work for the day. I believe our animals are much the same.
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My issue with it is that the horse is obviously lame. You can’t say that a right hind lameness is behavioral, can you?
Is it that sellers genuinely don’t see it, or do they hope that someone will come along who doesn’t?
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Everyone saying that the horse was lame, please remember that the pre-purchase veterinarian chosen by the buyer, declared it sound. No matter how experienced, a seller (any seller) cannot offer any guarantees that an animal is sound, that is up to a qualified veterinarian to decide on a given day. You can harp on the seller for not seeing what you see as a lameness, but the vet didn’t see it either. Professionals can definitely have as many blind spots when it comes to lameness as others, but it’s a bit unfair to expect them to be better at spotting lameness than the vet.
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That’s fair. But then the seller shouldn’t claim the horse is sound, if they admittedly can’t see it.
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oh I mentioned in my post about the lameness that people around the OP failed too (vet, etc)
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