This was the post where I guessed it was HSH Blake, not Jennie’s horse. Jennie is not an Olympian.
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I’d also like to state that I have never - in countless lameness exams between the horses I’ve owned and managed - had a vet state “sound or not sound.” The PPE is not pass-fail. It’s up to the vet and the buyer to determine if any findings will preclude the horse from the intended workload. But the vet will not state GO or NO GO for liability reasons.
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Yes, with findings. But a vet will always indicate if a horse is lame at the time of the exam during the undersaddle or in hand portion.
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Yep. They never use that word. I just had a PPE by a top soundness expert and the verbiage he used was: “horse as presents today is suitable for intended use in fox hunting and eventing”. Specific findings were noted like this:
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Not in my experience, they would just give the grade and leave the purchaser to read between the lines.
We don’t have insight into what the horse looked like for the PPE. He is 100% consistently lame right hind in the ridden videos, though. Left takes some weird steps here and there, but right is nearly all the time.
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If the horse is not sound, your notes are going to say “unsound to the right undertack” or something like “1/5 RF going right undersaddle” If they are unsound for the jog in hand before the flexions, the vet is going to say “it’s not sound, do you want to keep going?”. They are not going to declare it sound for a purpose, but if it’s lame it’s going to be noted.
If you think your vet is going to watch a horse go under tack or on the lunge or in hand and not note a lameness, while leaving you to make your decision by weeding through the flexion results, I’m pretty sure you should be using another vet.
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All the vettings I’ve done (which admittedly is not a huge number, but it’s been across a variety of practices and regions) the vet has mentioned a lameness that is grossly apparent. Results on flexions are different–a horse that flexes a little positive will be noted with a grade like you mention and then discussed. But a horse that presents as “100% consistently lame” pre-flexion, or post flexion on a circle/under saddle? You bet they’ve told me outright and included in the notes “horse unsound/lame doing xyz at this time.” This is also consistent with what I’ve heard from friends who’ve done PPEs.
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Does Kissing Spine always show up in an x-ray, and if so, it may or may not be an issue (cause lameness, symptoms), ever?
I have to find a new job for an OTT that is blemish-free and sound – but I am wondering if I should get x-rays done—better than to find out after the horse ends up in a bad spot-at least I could rule it out-good faith effort…
It’s estimated that 60% of all horses have KS on xray. It either means something or nothing or something in between something or nothing. No one is going to agree on what it means because all horses are different in how they react to radiographic findings in every area, we don’t have enough data to make conclusions, and the technology to do the radiographs properly in the field is new enough and expensive enough that there’s not a large enough pool of baseline data from horses who are being radiographed without reason. We can all argue over it but only the horse can tell you if it’s a problem or not, and even then it might be a red herring for another problem.
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So, pardon me for the slight segue, but I think it is apropos. I herniated 3 disks at age 26 while I was in the Army. My first military doctor looked at my MRI and said ‘almost everyone has abnormalities on spinal X-rays’. I couldn’t tie my own boots or walk without a limp. Next doc said ‘yes, almost everyone has spinal abnormalities, but not at 26 and not when they are visibly in acute pain’.
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Along the same line, I’ve been under the care of a neurosurgeon since about the same age for a similar reason.
And one thing that I’ve learned from all my imaging is that the rads don’t convey the degree of pain. I’ve had imaging done when not in pain and things have looked worse than when I’m experiencing acute pain and vice versa.
So just seeing an abnormality on film isn’t as conclusive as one might think. It works the opposite way, too. The imaging may look good, but that’s not a guarantee there will be no problems in the future.
With PPEs, all we can do is try to mitigate risk. But until we can predict the future, everything is speculative.
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I’ll add that other people have far more working experience with back radiographs.
Of the likely 1000 horses I’ve ridden, only 2 to my knowledge have had back radiographs. One was the coldest backed MF’er I’ve ever sat on. His were pristine. The other refused to pick up his right lead, but would change onto it. Vet looked at the back and said oh, here’s the problem, KS in four places. But then we kept going and the front leg (I don’t remember which one) had more hardware than bone holding it together that no one knew was there. Which was the problem? No idea, unless it was my right hip, which tends to also cause right lead issues 
.
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Also, horses as well as people present pain differently. As horse people, I generally assume most of us are accustomed to working through pain. Getting a doctor to take you seriously is sometimes (or sadly, for women, often) a whole different thing.
I have cared for horses that presented like this:
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Nick on ankle. 3 legged lame. Nothing else the vet could find. Perfectly fine 2 days later.
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Grumpy at a minimum, occasionally dangerous multiple national champion AA+ hunter. Never took an unsound step. Took him to get his teeth done, needed sedation. Vet said “watch this” while horse was sedated and ran his hands along the horse’s spine. Horse almost collapsed. FWIW, vet never said anything else about it - which was pretty powerful in itself.
a. Taught me a lesson about who I was working for and a LOT about that horse, who perked up every time he saw a jump and never refused in his life to my knowledge. Older folks would know his name. Had a bad rep for being ‘mean’.
b. Pain can change a personality
c. Since this is COTH and you all will want to know, I will say that he later got a new home, a long break, and came back to high-level competition with some joy in his life - and much joy for me to know that it happened. He stole my heart even when he was trying to take pieces out of me
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All so very true. Many recommended euthanasia after seeing him blow and seeing his radiographs. I probably should have cut my losses then. Will I keep a pasture ornament for the next 20+ years, I don’t know, probably not.
I can’t let anyone else get on him. The woman currently training me has offered, assuming his rehab and ground work goes accordingly. But, I couldn’t live with it if he hurt someone else. If anyone gets on him, it will be me. Will I ever feel comfortable, tough question. On one hand, I desperately want to give him a shot, but as the mother of two young children that’s a tough pill. Prior to my hiatus, I would have had no reservations if rehab went well. This “mom” title is a game-changer.
Taking it one day at a time for now. We’re post-op, almost healed from dehiscence and post-op infection, heading to rehab/aquatred next weekend. I suppose we’ll see what the next steps after that bring. I’m cautiously optimistic, well aware that there is about a 10% possibility of a happy ending and that a happy ending means temporary soundness. KS surgery is not a cure. KS is degenerative and progressive as is all osteoarthritis, so surgery is at best a temporary stay.
I’m so sorry to hear of your experience, but I thank you so much for sharing it. Unfortunately, I will probably find myself sharing the same story someday. But for now, I remain hopeful, I keep the groceries coming and he is a happy horse. That said, I do know there are more tough decisions in our not so distant future.
(Side note…Is there an easy way to post pics and videos on this forum that I am missing? I am willing to share as a point of education. If so, message me and I will. I tried to post pics before, but it came up as downloadable links that I’m not sure even worked so I deleted.)
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I respectfully disagree.
You are glancing over what percent of that 60 are grade 1, grade 2, grade 3, grade 4?
They are not all created equal.
A 6-yr old horse, G4 with 7 DSPs worth of surgery is never sound whereas a 16-yr old horse with G1 might be an incidental finding, might never be symptomatic.
Very different scenarios.
KS is a form of osteoarthritis, degenerative and progressive. It’s not that amorphous.
The etiology, that is tougher. Genetics, training, injury, a combination of nature and nurture…unclear.
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You cannot start actively working with a horse trainer until you have a horse. You can know them, have spoken to them, have the prospect horse accepted into the program, but there are no dollars exchanged until the horse starts in the program. Hence you are not actively working with them.
From the exact email I sent Ms Redman:
“Thanks for getting back to me. In my younger days, I’d feel confident in my abilities to take this on myself. At this point I would enlist the help of a trainer. I’ve spoken with XXXXX, a dressage trainer in my area, and she does have availability for training board. She would also be up for speaking with you to ease any reservations you might have. I’ve also been in touch with an eventing barn in my area, XXXX, to assist in starting him over fences.”
I’ve “spoken” with a dressage trainer in my area. Never did I say I was actively training with her already.
This story that’s being put out there that I lied in any way about the program the horse was going into is pure nonsense. He went to the exact dressage trainer I referenced in my email to Ms. Redman.
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Posting photos is one of the positive things on this format. You can simply copy and paste them into the body of your post, depending on the format.
If that does not work, you can upload them using the upload button at the top of the reply box.
I know this thread is kind of buried in the technical help section, it has lots of good instructions in the original post.
Here is the section on posting a photo.
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If you’re on an Android phone, using Chrome, the upload button may be in the lower right corner…
Just seems a bit hard to believe someone cares about where the horse lands and about matching the right horse to rider when one won’t even return the client’s call. JMHO.
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I’m glad that you are doing right by this horse. He’s very lucky to have landed with you.
Forgive me if you mentioned this elsewhere…I’m curious if you were present at the PPE and if you or your trainer were able to ride the horse before purchasing? I ask because, at least in my experience, being physically present or not can change the vet/client communication.
I read where you wrote that the vet said multiple complimentary things about the horse, so this is in no way blaming you for taking the vet at his word and trusting his guidance. The way you described it made me wonder if you weren’t there and the vet didn’t have the best understanding of what you needed out of the exam. There are people who are comfortable buying horses sight unseen without PPEs, and he may have mistakenly thought you were the type of client who wanted an inexpensive exam? Maybe I’m paranoid about PPEs (I definitely am!!).
That said, in the end, it probably wouldn’t have made a difference if you and the vet did not know that you needed xrays. I would hope that G4 KS would have been obvious to the PPE vet if he had seen them.
Either way, I appreciate how disappointing this must be. It’s so hard to see a horse you love in pain.
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