What is generally included in the seller’s statement?
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For point of education. This is why you always get back XRs regardless of what the broker claims or the vet recommends.
This is horrible, horrible pathology in a 6-yr-old horse (maybe just 7 at the time TB age).
This is what those radiographs translate to…
82F7F368-C0DC-417B-90A4-CCA8ED04AAC2
This is what pain looks like. Video taken w/in weeks of arrival. The level of pathology seen in these radiographs does not happen or become symptomatic in a matter of weeks. It is not brought on by travel, stall size, diet, etc.
I personally do not believe this pain went unnoted in the 2 years Ms. Redman’s friend rode this horse, nor do I believe he did not exhibit the same behavior at Ms. Redman’s barn. If Ms Redman truly believed this was a training issue, I hope she can place her rose-colored glasses next to mine instead of doubling down on her self proclaimed status of KS expert.
For reference, this video was taken after my trainer was injured and for the sole purpose of showing me how bad the pain display was, basically like, hey this is why I won’t get back on your horse and we are waiting on the vet. She really wanted me to SEE it. This was not an attempt at training it out of him or trying to work through it.
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Why was he being double lunged in this setup? Did he buck like this when lunged normally? Or did he refuse to canter on the correct lead when lunged normally? And was he ever sore to palpation on his back during this time?
Those are definitely some nasty rads. I assume you went with the bone shave surgery?
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I agree with this.
I am glad that the buyer was willing to do what they are doing for this horse. I am glad that the buyer admits mistakes but is putting the needs of the horse first.
That is not how I read it.
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The horse’s first ride was filmed without edits and you can see this behavior. We don’t really know how much of this behavior was exhibited by the seller.
As far as the double lunging, I do not find it unusual that a horse being lunged in that manner for the first time would have a reaction, it’s a constrictive form of lunging where this horse is being asked for a lot more collection and a lot less forward than in the sales videos and a reaction is not a surprise especially if the horse had back issues.
Does the trainer lunge normally? Does he react the same way? Those are some gnarly back rads.
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The horse trader seems to imply that all this horse’s training problems were from their friend (or someone on the friend’s behalf) not riding it correctly when they are explaining why the horse is so balled up, etc. The trader specifically mentions that is why it has so much trouble at the canter.
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Jessica told me her friend (previous owner) rode him without issue. Had him for over 2 years OTT. Told me his bottled up behavior seen on video was minor, nothing more. Denied more explosive behavior. Told me her “friend has a tendency to back horses off. She’s a timid rider.” She told me these “training issues” were resolved with a new bit. Such nonsense. This horse almost killed my trainer within weeks of him arriving. To clarify, he is a LOVE of a horse with a huge fan club at my barn. He was in pain. Pain Redman passed as “behavioral.”
I found it. It’s possible, but who knows how much info was given that was accurate? I purchased a horse that the seller said had of trail riding experience. I took it somewhere and it acted like it had never seen uneven ground. Contacted the seller and they had taken it twice to a trail with flat groomed ground and ridden it at a walk.
I can absolutely see why Amo’s trainer’s style produced more extreme behavior especially if the double lunging is their riding style. I have seen horses with kissing spines be fine as say a hunter but not fine as a dressage horse. Different ask of the horse. It’s unfortunate.
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Oof, not loving the lunging video. My own horses would be throwing a shit fit about being treated like that, and neither one has those xrays. Does he have a tight inside side rein on, as well as the double lunging?
A day late and a dollar short, but no way would I have been cranking any horse up high-and-tight like that, for any reason.
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Here is the ad for this horse. It is not just the buyer saying that the horse trader said this or that.
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Exactly the horse I, as an amateur with a decade off riding, would read a description of and go “I must have him!” Yikes.
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I have seen the ad, nothing about it says ammy friendly or re rider friendly to me. Nor do the videos.
All I am saying is that riding style or usage can make soundness issues appear more or less obvious.
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That is not the point we were discussing, but if you want to go there, the buyer was putting the horse into a program with a trainer, while they rode lesson horses. The same thing lots of ammy riders do, buy more horse than they can ride but use a pro to put miles on the horse for however long it takes them to get to the point that they can ride it. For some ammy riders that is a long time, for others it is no time at all.
The buyer is not complaining about that part.
I realize the goal here is to slap the buyer as much as possible in an attempt to make the horse trader look better, but really, the constant need to belittle this buyer does not make this seller look better.
This seller insists they only sell horses to a situation that is the right fit, so clearly this home seemed like the right fit to the seller, the same seller that you are defending about everything else. The seller/horse trader admits they were told this is the exact situation the horse was going into.
I think the ad makes it pretty clear that the horse trader/seller did not think her friend was simply hacking this horse around the pasture on a loose rein. All the comments about the horse being bottled up because it is afraid of getting hit in the mouth do not sound like that at all.
Again, this buyer made lots of mistakes.
They saw a pretty horse and believed the seller.
Then they believed the vet when the vet said no X-rays were needed.
Thankfully this buyer is doing right by this horse. That is a good thing. Something we should all be happy about.
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You edited after I quoted.
You are right.
You are very right about that.
But those X-rays are bad enough that there is no question that this horse is in pain.
And again, this seller blamed this horse’s way of going on her friend’s riding and catching the horse in the mouth if it tried to go forward.
When it is not being described as one of the best moving TBs the seller has encountered.
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No question at all.
The seller did indeed, and you can see in the videos the horse did improve with a more forward looser riding style so I can see someone assuming that was the issue.
Then in the double lunging video you can see how the behavior deteriorated w the more constrictive style.
I think it’s difficult. If behavior changes w riding style is it just riding style? Or is it soundness. In this case it was soundness.
It’s a case both seller and buyer made mistakes and can learn from. It’s unfortunate for the horse.
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The behavior was demonstrated and written about by the seller. The seller even acknowledged that he let loose a huge buck that almost unseated her (talented) rider.
Did you see the seller’s videos?
I’ve already said it but it’s possible for both parties to be wrong. It’s just part of life. It doesn’t make either party a bad, horrible person - just something they need to learn from if they want to do better next go around.
@Amos
Wow! Those are bad rads. I can see the sclerotic cyst[s] you referred as “putting a thumb through”. No wonder he was so reluctant to canter. 
What processes were involved - looks like that last film includes the lumbar spine? I’m not the best at figuring out where c-spine rads start but it looks like it starts pretty high up.
Regarding the posters concerned about the double lunging - this is really common in dressage training barns. It looks like he is only being lunged in the long-lines – him going behind the bit is evasive behavior, not his head being cranked down. You can see the trainer is giving him as much rein as she can without him taking off. I wouldn’t be indicting the trainer over this video clip - this isn’t a horse most trainers can even work with, and many dressage trainers won’t even touch a green OTTB. Ask me how I know.
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I truly feel bad for everyone involved - especially the horse. That being said, having restarted more than 1 OTTB and one who came from a bad situation - absolutely no way in HELL would I have ever considered putting the side reins on that tight (I large screened the video and yes, the side reins are that tight and holding him in an upright frame).
I would have expected a trainer, reading the ad and watching the behavior of an OTTB - to basically restart the horse w/ long and low lunging and getting the horse to stretch and relax. And then, if things continue to go poorly - back X-rays. The explosive behavior, IMHO, was highly predictable. Sorry - watching that video makes me go WTF.
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This. @KellyS totally agree. I have a friend who re-started an OTTB, took him to RRP and did quite well with him, then sold him onto his next person. Horse was lovely - witnessed it with my own eyes and rode him a handful of time with no issues at all. Within a year, the buyer had reached out to let her know the horse had developed kissing spine and was so dangerous he needed to be euthanized. This was in the early days of kissing spine so taking back x-rays without any sort of demonstrated sensitivity was not a thing when it came to PPEs. Nobody knows what this horse looked like when he was still with the seller’s friend - he could have been completely fine. We’ll likely never know.
This thread existed prior to Amos buying said horse and clearly highlighted the seller’s position on kissing spine. The buyer chose not to insist on back X-rays and as many have noted, the horse did appear to improve in the videos with consistent riding even though he was still clearly lame which tells me whoever Amos was supposedly in contact with regarding training most likely didn’t see the videos (if they did and said go for it, that’s a whole other can of worms in the pile of mistakes Amos has made). The buyer has made some pretty serious statements about the seller’s ethics and integrity - I think the seller has lived up to (or down depending on your point of view) what she has clearly put out into the interwebz. People may not agree with her opinions and that’s fine. But she has not been dishonest. The buyer failed to do their due diligence which they have sort of, kind of acknowledged while also deflecting to the seller. Could the seller take the horse back? Maybe. Does Amos want to give the horse back? I don’t know. But I don’t think coming on a public forum and making the very emotionally driven posts was the correct course of action. I would have been more interested in hearing this story with a tone of “I bought a horse sight unseen from this horse trader, these are the mistakes I made and this is why I wouldn’t recommend an ammy buy from this individual.”
At the end of the day buyer beware. All I’ve taken from Amos’ multiple posts is an ammy who fell in love with black beauty, was blind to a whole host of problems, and is now lashing out in a very non-productive way. Every one who has read this thread is aware of the sellers position with regards to KS - be that right, wrong or somewhere in between. Clearly the seller is successful and based on this thread - to me, it seems that most of the folks disparaging her have not done business with her, they just don’t agree with her public statements regarding KS or potential buyers. The few who have commented as having done business with her seem for the most part to have had successful encounters.
I hope everything ends well for this pony and for Amos.
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I was leaning more toward sympathy with Amos until I saw the lunging video. I know the horse tends to go in a more upright frame but I’m having a difficult time trying to give the trainer the benefit of the doubt on this one. Screenshots below. I think who I most feel sorry for is the horse.
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It also makes me say “no wonder the horse tried to kill your trainer, mine would have unloaded her, too…”
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My naturally uphill-moving horses (Hackney and Saddlebred) would have flipped their shit in long lined or ridden that behind the contact and they don’t have kissing spines or behavioral issues.
The trainer probably crammed him up as she was scared of him. He’s a big athletic horse and probably overly reactive due to pain.
All parties (seller, buyer, vet, trainer) have blame to go around; unfortunately, the one that suffers is the horse in this situation.
Edited: to remove side reins- those lines are tight enough I thought they were side reins.
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