I agree.
I do think, however, that hindsight is 20/20 and someone COULD have said all the same things and it ended up being fine (well, quietly managed without going into an emotional social media situation). We only know NOW that it wasn’t the paper-perfect situation the buyer presented.
Yes, but if we are to believe a good percentage of the posters on this thread, all buyers lie about their abilities, so there is no reason for a seller, who claims their MO is to make sure horses end up in the right home and buyers end up with the right horse, to believe the ‘on paper’ presentation. Even more so with such an amazing horse that needs a special situation.
All I am saying is, this seller is not what they advertise themselves to be. They are just a horse trader. They are not something special that wants to do right by all the horses. I know that is what they are advertising themselves as, and this buyer fell for it. But this sale proves they are truly just a horse trader. And like has been said so many times, this seller too needs to be treated with the whole - buyer beware - theory to buying.
(Again, I think all made mistakes here.)
This is the post. @Amos, I feel for you, but this is shaping up to be one poor decision after another and the horse is the one losing here. You are, as anonevent says, trusting the wrong people. I wish you weren’t being punished for that, because I think you are trying to do the right thing (you did a PPE on the horse, you found a trainer and put the horse in a program, etc), but those people are leading you in the wrong direction.
Ultimately, those are horrible xrays and there is no changing that, but if the PPE vet had moved forward with your preference for back rads at least it would not have been your issue to manage moving forward. Since it is, I will join the chorus of voices who are telling you that is not an acceptable way to lunge a horse (any horse, ever) - it accomplishes nothing for training purposes and certainly is not useful as a means to demonstrate soundness or unsoundness (I cannot tell a single thing from that video other than the horse is trapped, miserable, slightly panicky, and very generous - with him cranked into that position I couldn’t begin to determine if there are any reasons for that upset outside of the rigging setup). It is, unfortunately, a red flag that indicates he is likely not in an appropriate situation to set him up for success, whatever that may mean for this horse, at the moment.
I wish you were not in this position. If you would like some help, perhaps by sharing your area others could recommend some options in the area that will go slow and gentle and listen to the horse. I hope you find what you are looking for.
All of these posters are correct:
I know this post is further back now, but this was excellent and deserved some additional kudos:
Totally agree. Not at all condoning the frame or suggesting this is a picture of healthy/harmonious lunging, but the trainer is in a tough spot of trying to keep a lid on a dangerously uncomfortable horse, while also briefly documenting the problematic pain behaviors for owner and vet. Lovely horse, and I hope there is more comfort in his future.
Was the video removed? I’m a bit confused by the photos as I double lunge most of my horses (and long-line/drive) and I’ve never seen them cranked down like that.
ETA: I was able to download the video and view it. It looks to me like the inside line is attached at the surcingle and then run through the bit, which may be why the horse is cranked in to such an extent. I’ve always used the opposite set up – where you attach the line to the bit and then through the surcingle, although with a horse that feels trapped, I might have the line right on the bit or the lunging caveson.
In this video and in the ridden videos I’ve seen, the horse is very short in his neck and being pushed into contact. I wonder how he looks on a long rein and a slower rhythm. Whether some of the pain response is from how he’s being worked. Obviously the rads are bad but I’m wondering if the previous owner/rider just rode the horse in a completely different way.
He certainly is athletic and he certainly is in pain. I hope that the surgery is successful and the horse finds a job that he’s comfortable with.
I don’t see side reins, but my eyes are not that great and I am on a small monitor. Am I missing something?
Here is a still I grabbed that, to my eye, I can only see the long-line rein, looped through the surcingle to the bit, over his back - which is a fair and humane ask of most horses. I cannot see how/where the inside long line rein is clipped, but I have seen dressage trainers clip dozens of different ways depending on the goal that session.
My guess is he is doing to the trainer exactly what the seller observed (and can be seen in the seller’s videos) - “sucking back behind the contact”. He was doing exactly that in his sales videos too. He may have hit the bit several times during those big bucks and that’s why he’s so backed off.
Irrespective of what this trainer is doing, don’t let that detract from the topic at hand - which is that a seller refuses to acknowledge a horse in their program was symptomatic for kissing spine and/or refuses to acknowledge kissing spine can cause issues in horses.
I don’t have a great eye for lameness, so won’t try to go there. The question that pops up in my mind every time I read stuff here is this: Do we really know anything about how the previous owner (before Benchmark) was as a rider, and also, do we really know anything at all about the qualifications of the trainer the horse was sent to once he got to Texas? The x-rays confirmed a problem, but rider ability both pre- and post sale can also have a lot of influence on the way the horse responds.
Hold up. You think that buyer here was paper perfect? An amateur, out of the saddle for a long time, with a brand new to her trainer? Far away, so no chance of a test ride? Far away so probably no direct knowledge on the sellers part of the pro?
Wow. I can see why we’re so far apart. I’m not even sure what you think the buyer misrepresented–she was straight up with the seller.
Paper perfect to me is a pro, who’d taken a number of “pro ride” “behavioral issues” horses like this from Jessica before and done right by them. THAT’S paper perfect. It could still go wrong, but no one could say boo about the seller sending a horse that direction.
Those are some GNARLY X-rays. I am guessing bone shave/removal of processes was the only surgical option.
The success of this horse going forward are going to depend GREATLY on the KS being his “only” issue, the quality of his rehab, the ability of his owner to see non-limping signs of lameness/discomfort, the quality of his shoeing and daily management, and the skills of his rider (if he is ever rideable). KS surgery does not have a sky high success rate long term, but with those rads I agree surgery is probably his best chance at life. That plus 24/7 turnout, meticulous fitness and hoof care, and a job that is unlikely to be dressage at anything but the lowest levels.
I think Amos has been very unlucky in the sense that they have tried to do the right thing, made some mistakes that MOST of us have also made at some point, and somehow have managed to still have everything go wrong. I really, really feel for them on that. For the horse’s sake, I hope they can get this train turned around, and for future horses’ sakes I hope Jessica takes this as a lesson that KS can absolutely cause behavior issues and isn’t to be discounted.
How many times do we tell people IF you’re going to buy more horse than you can currently handle (especially as a re-rider that likely could handle a spitfire in the past but just needs to get back in shape), you PPE the horse and put it in training while riding lesson horses/leasing to get yourself ready to ride said hotrod? Same thing you’d do with a baby? Or a fancy WB?
That’s how I am taking it. Buyer says “hey I’m an amateur that’s been out of the saddle BUT I did XYZ in the past, am working with ABC trainers, and will have the horse on full board in full training. Here’s what I want to do with him and the type of horses I’m used to riding”. That’s not an unreasonable choice.
I do disagree that the seller broke some concrete rule by not selling to a theoretical self-proclaimed “pro”, especially since the horse appears to not have been owned by her but was being represented. That does change the ability of the seller to make some choices. Even if she DID own the horse, my opinion stands.
We disagree, entirely, but I really get the impression my posts are being interpreted intentionally wrong.
One thing I hope this thread does NOT do is scare @Amos away from using this forum as a resource. Yes, some people can sometimes be harsher than they should be, but it’s worth putting up with that to get access to the sheer amount of knowledge this forum has.
Her horse is gorgeous and I think we all agree that he must have a saintly personality. I really hope that he can eventually get comfortable and find a job that is suitable for him.
I am taking your words at face value. You said:
What was paper perfect about this situation from the outset.
We know what Amos said, and it wasn’t this. She’s told us. She posted the email.
But even if what you say IS how she presented it, HOW is that “paper perfect”? That might get a “…well, I guess it could work…” but it’s far from perfect.
I shared my definition of paper perfect above: a pro, purchased horses like this from Jessica before, who has had success with them. It may still blow up–and clearly would’ve here, with this horse’s rads–but that’s the sort of paper perfect that no one can fault the seller for sending the horse in that direction. That sort of sale supports what she said about the horse needing prior to the sale.
I think the left line is snapped to the surcingle at the girth then run through the bit and out to the trainer. The right line is attached to the bit and run through the surcingle to the trainer. He’s being lunged in a big area and he’s hurting- I’m not surprised he’s folded up like a pretzel, but I don’t think the trainer is ‘trying’ for that. she’s trying to show how dangerous he is.
At the end of the day, ESH.
I think the left line goes thru a ring on the surcingle (a lower ring).
I am shocked that so many people here find using two lines to be cruel and horrible.
It’s not two lines. It’s the multiple times she’s leans her whole body weight back onto them I have issue with.
I double lunge with somewhat regularity.
I don’t think they do. However, it requires good timing and a horse in front of the aids so that you can operate an outside rein and not overly lean on the inside. If a horse is so out of control that you have to skate on the outside line to keep control and then hang on the inside with a horse that is completely curling up, then it isn’t beneficial to anyone. I think it would have been way more beneficial to pop this horse in a round pen on a single line to show the gaits or use a line of jumps to break a larger arena in half to create a visually smaller place to lunge.
My mare, with great back rads, would like fold on a double line due to inexperience. If the environment wasn’t set up to reinforce forward and instead controlling a runaway shoulder was the focus, she could end up in a similar stuck place. Her response would have not left the lunger still standing either by spinning and bolting out or by taking a hind end aim at a grounds person. That is a very very good horse being asked an unfair request.
A lot of good tools can be harmful in the wrong environment or with the wrong timing. I don’t think double lunging a painful horse in a big arena to show that it is a big horse in pain who feels stuck accomplished anything. If this wasn’t the first time he was put on a double line I would question why a trainer set him up for failure a second time if this was truly just to document a state of the situation.
That is why we have airplanes. A lot of times, people go the OTTB route to save money or because they can’t afford more. But a <$10,000 horse is still going to be expensive if you do your due diligence of a full vetting, seeing the horse in person, and having your trainer evaluate the horse, hopefully in person.
None of the above is required, but this situation is an example of what happens when you don’t spend the money up front. Many times you end up spending more and you may not have a rideable horse at the end.
None of the above is the seller’s fault either. And no one here knows the conversations between buyer and seller prior to purchase other than what’s been shared, which is very little. Some buyers can talk a really good game and convince you they are the right home, and it is easy, no matter what experience you have, to believe them.
We all want what’s best for our horses, and I don’t believe at all that Benchmark would have placed this horse in anything other than what they believed was a good home.
I’m speaking as someone who thought they placed a horse in a good home and the horse ultimately had the be euthanized. I was excoriated on social media by a bunch of people who knew nothing about the situation firsthand.
I’ve also bought horses sight unseen, but with very low expectations, appropriate professional support, and I never take the seller, no matter who they are, at their word. It’s my job, as the buyer, to determine if the horse is suitable and that is on me, no one else. It’s called personal responsibility and accountability.
ETA: I do a lot of long lining to prepare horses for dressage and driving. The video is a great example of how NOT to do it. It’s a skill set beyond basic lunging, and you can create a lot of pain and tension if you don’t understand that the contact is different than when you’re riding. I would NEVER long line a horse with any evidence of pain or lameness, and no one here should be supporting its use this way.
Agreed, I am only saying I don’t think she’s “trying” for that, but she’s getting that because he’s in too big a space, under educated, and hurting.
I 100% agree with your post. I long line (double lunge) my horse and can get super nice work, but he and I are experienced. I suspect that the horse was put in this situation to make a point. And it isnt kind to the horse. And I suspect that the trainer did not expect that the video would be put out on COTH. But here we are.
I also long line/double lunge because it’s really helpful to have control of the outside shoulder. However, as I posted above, I don’t set up the inside line the way it’s shown here because I don’t think it provides enough relief/release. Part of the benefit of long lining is that you can be soft with your hands and replicate under saddle work.
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