Benchmark Sporthorses?

[BrownDerby]

I have no dog in this fight but IMHO the lunging pics are far worse and more disturbing than anything on the sales videos. I still maintain that the horse is an absolute saint.

[anonevent]

Holy Hell. That poor, gorgeous, kid. You made poor choices about who to trust, and you’re left holding the responsibility of making the best of it. It’s a cautionary tale of what can go wrong when everything goes wrong.

I would have a hard time restraining myself from comment if anyone tried to sell me that back, missed that back on vetting, or lunged a horse of mine like that. It is valid for you to be pissed at everyone involved, at yourself, and at the circumstances in general. It sucks.

You can deep dive into KS rehab (if you haven’t already) and find people who are experienced with it who will, hopefully, treat your horse more fairly. Just research the F out of them. Make a thread on the forum looking for KS rehab/training. Ask which questions to ask them. Ask how to know if they’re trustworthy. Ask for step by step advice about choosing such a trainer. Call good trainers and ask them who they would send their *horse to. Narrow down that list -then ask for reviews here. Have your vet speak to trainers.

Find the best person and give them this horse for as long as you can afford it. Have your vet involved all throughout training. Be a hands on owner and record the sessions. Stop trusting people.

[Simkie]

@fivestrideline

At no point has any theoretical conversation with any trainer been brought up outside of an abstract “seller should have talked to the trainer” by other posters here.

Yes, actually, it has.

@Amos

From the exact email I sent Ms Redman:
“Thanks for getting back to me. In my younger days, I’d feel confident in my abilities to take this on myself. At this point I would enlist the help of a trainer. I’ve spoken with XXXXX, a dressage trainer in my area, and she does have availability for training board. She would also be up for speaking with you to ease any reservations you might have. I’ve also been in touch with an eventing barn in my area, XXXX, to assist in starting him over fences.”

You seem to be holding the position that a seller has no responsibility in making an attempt to ensure the horse winds up in a place where he can be successful. A horse that’s difficult needs, imo, a bit more care in placement.

This is a very sad situation all the way around. Amos has admitted missteps. Jessica certainly has not, even though her actions in this sale contradict what she herself has said about her approach to placing horses.

[SpicyPRE]

When you are selling a big, dark, fancy gelding who is going to come out of the woodwork? Inexperienced buyers because they will be blinded by the big and dark and totally miss the lameness. On paper this is every inexperienced purchaser/riders dream horse. And, this is where I feel like Benchmark should have done better by this gelding.

[kt]

@good_booie

OMG! horrible! Is this the trainer doing this or Amos? wowwowwow. No beuno

Unsure. But if I had to guess, I would guess most likely the trainer.

[trubandloki]

@SpicyPRE

And, this is where I feel like Benchmark should have done better by this gelding.

I agree with this.

Even more so since that is the party line with this seller, that they will not just sell a horse, they want to make sure both the horse and the buyer are good fit and all that stuff this seller says about their business model.

[fivestrideline]

I think we are talking past each other here and going in circles due to that.

That’s okay, as at the end of the day I think we CAN agree that the horse is clearly struggling and that he’s going to take some serious managing.

[fivestrideline]

@SpicyPRE

When you are selling a big, dark, fancy gelding who is going to come out of the woodwork? Inexperienced buyers because they will be blinded by the big and dark and totally miss the lameness. On paper this is every inexperienced purchaser/riders dream horse. And, this is where I feel like Benchmark should have done better by this gelding.

I agree.

I do think, however, that hindsight is 20/20 and someone COULD have said all the same things and it ended up being fine (well, quietly managed without going into an emotional social media situation). We only know NOW that it wasn’t the paper-perfect situation the buyer presented.

[trubandloki]

@fivestrideline

We only know NOW that it wasn’t the paper-perfect situation the buyer presented.

Yes, but if we are to believe a good percentage of the posters on this thread, all buyers lie about their abilities, so there is no reason for a seller, who claims their MO is to make sure horses end up in the right home and buyers end up with the right horse, to believe the ‘on paper’ presentation. Even more so with such an amazing horse that needs a special situation.

All I am saying is, this seller is not what they advertise themselves to be. They are just a horse trader. They are not something special that wants to do right by all the horses. I know that is what they are advertising themselves as, and this buyer fell for it. But this sale proves they are truly just a horse trader. And like has been said so many times, this seller too needs to be treated with the whole - buyer beware - theory to buying.

(Again, I think all made mistakes here.)

[Marigold]

@anonevent

Holy Hell. That poor, gorgeous, kid. You made poor choices about who to trust, and you’re left holding the responsibility of making the best of it. It’s a cautionary tale of what can go wrong when everything goes wrong.

I would have a hard time restraining myself from comment if anyone tried to sell me that back, missed that back on vetting, or lunged a horse of mine like that. It is valid for you to be pissed at everyone involved, at yourself, and at the circumstances in general. It sucks.

This is the post. @Amos, I feel for you, but this is shaping up to be one poor decision after another and the horse is the one losing here. You are, as anonevent says, trusting the wrong people. I wish you weren’t being punished for that, because I think you are trying to do the right thing (you did a PPE on the horse, you found a trainer and put the horse in a program, etc), but those people are leading you in the wrong direction.

Ultimately, those are horrible xrays and there is no changing that, but if the PPE vet had moved forward with your preference for back rads at least it would not have been your issue to manage moving forward. Since it is, I will join the chorus of voices who are telling you that is not an acceptable way to lunge a horse (any horse, ever) - it accomplishes nothing for training purposes and certainly is not useful as a means to demonstrate soundness or unsoundness (I cannot tell a single thing from that video other than the horse is trapped, miserable, slightly panicky, and very generous - with him cranked into that position I couldn’t begin to determine if there are any reasons for that upset outside of the rigging setup). It is, unfortunately, a red flag that indicates he is likely not in an appropriate situation to set him up for success, whatever that may mean for this horse, at the moment.

I wish you were not in this position. If you would like some help, perhaps by sharing your area others could recommend some options in the area that will go slow and gentle and listen to the horse. I hope you find what you are looking for.

All of these posters are correct:

@enjoytheride

As far as the double lunging, I do not find it unusual that a horse being lunged in that manner for the first time would have a reaction, it’s a constrictive form of lunging where this horse is being asked for a lot more collection and a lot less forward than in the sales videos and a reaction is not a surprise especially if the horse had back issues.

@enjoytheride

I can absolutely see why Amo’s trainer’s style produced more extreme behavior especially if the double lunging is their riding style.

@endlessclimb

Oof, not loving the lunging video. My own horses would be throwing a shit fit about being treated like that, and neither one has those xrays. Does he have a tight inside side rein on, as well as the double lunging?

A day late and a dollar short, but no way would I have been cranking any horse up high-and-tight like that, for any reason.

@millerra

I truly feel bad for everyone involved - especially the horse. That being said, having restarted more than 1 OTTB and one who came from a bad situation - absolutely no way in HELL would I have ever considered putting the side reins on that tight (I large screened the video and yes, the side reins are that tight and holding him in an upright frame).

I would have expected a trainer, reading the ad and watching the behavior of an OTTB - to basically restart the horse w/ long and low lunging and getting the horse to stretch and relax. And then, if things continue to go poorly - back X-rays. The explosive behavior, IMHO, was highly predictable. Sorry - watching that video makes me go WTF.

@luvmyhackney

My naturally uphill-moving horses (Hackney and Saddlebred) would have flipped their shit in long lined or ridden that behind the contact and they don’t have kissing spines or behavioral issues.

@fivestrideline

Holee crap.

A horse hiding the bit is one thing, but those reins are not loose or long by ANY means… he doesn’t have anywhere to go!

@2bayboys

I literally said ohmygod out loud when I scrolled down and saw the screenshots from the video.

@BrownDerby

I have no dog in this fight but IMHO the lunging pics are far worse and more disturbing than anything on the sales videos. I still maintain that the horse is an absolute saint.

I know this post is further back now, but this was excellent and deserved some additional kudos:

@KellyS

However, once a horse leaves the seller’s farm, a lot of variables change that may significantly aggravate pain…

This horse shipped from Delaware to, I think, Texas. This alone, even in a box stall, can cause a lot of body soreness, and we don’t know the length of time, route, or configuration for shipping.

Then there are the variables of stall and turnout at the new barn. Did stall size change? How about type and depth of bedding? What type of turnout and how much compared to previously?

Was the horse transitioned from his previous concentrate? Did he begin eating a different concentrate and how does it differ (eg, NSCs) compared to his previous feed? How much? What type of hay?

These are just a few examples of the many, many changes that may have affected how this horse felt mentally and physically after arrival at his new home and subsequently, his behavior under saddle. Without seeing him in person prior to purchase, neither Amos not her trainer can say whether or not his behavior at his new home was previously present to the same degree.

I’m not criticizing buying sight unseen, but it comes with a lot of risks that you have to be prepared for and accept (speaking from experience). I feel the buyer went into this without taking any of the risks into account and feels the seller is responsible for not producing the horse as imagined by the buyer.

We also don’t know the extent of communication or how it was actually handled. It’s easy to say the seller should have responded, but we don’t know the circumstances, what had been previously communicated, or any further details. At this point (when a buyer is blaming the seller for someone’s injuries), few, if any, sellers would want to further engage without having communication in writing.

Anyway, I feel the buyer has handled this purchase poorly in many ways, and I haven’t seen any actual evidence that this seller is unethical or lacks integrity, which is what the buyer said and keeps trying to prove here.

That just really rubs me the wrong way. The lessons learned here apply to any horse purchase with any seller.

[VolteSomeday]

Totally agree. Not at all condoning the frame or suggesting this is a picture of healthy/harmonious lunging, but the trainer is in a tough spot of trying to keep a lid on a dangerously uncomfortable horse, while also briefly documenting the problematic pain behaviors for owner and vet. Lovely horse, and I hope there is more comfort in his future.

[Bogie]

Was the video removed? I’m a bit confused by the photos as I double lunge most of my horses (and long-line/drive) and I’ve never seen them cranked down like that.

ETA: I was able to download the video and view it. It looks to me like the inside line is attached at the surcingle and then run through the bit, which may be why the horse is cranked in to such an extent. I’ve always used the opposite set up – where you attach the line to the bit and then through the surcingle, although with a horse that feels trapped, I might have the line right on the bit or the lunging caveson.

In this video and in the ridden videos I’ve seen, the horse is very short in his neck and being pushed into contact. I wonder how he looks on a long rein and a slower rhythm. Whether some of the pain response is from how he’s being worked. Obviously the rads are bad but I’m wondering if the previous owner/rider just rode the horse in a completely different way.

He certainly is athletic and he certainly is in pain. I hope that the surgery is successful and the horse finds a job that he’s comfortable with.

[beowulf]

@millerra

(I large screened the video and yes, the side reins are that tight and holding him in an upright frame).

I don’t see side reins, but my eyes are not that great and I am on a small monitor. Am I missing something?

Here is a still I grabbed that, to my eye, I can only see the long-line rein, looped through the surcingle to the bit, over his back - which is a fair and humane ask of most horses. I cannot see how/where the inside long line rein is clipped, but I have seen dressage trainers clip dozens of different ways depending on the goal that session.

My guess is he is doing to the trainer exactly what the seller observed (and can be seen in the seller’s videos) - “sucking back behind the contact”. He was doing exactly that in his sales videos too. He may have hit the bit several times during those big bucks and that’s why he’s so backed off.

Irrespective of what this trainer is doing, don’t let that detract from the topic at hand - which is that a seller refuses to acknowledge a horse in their program was symptomatic for kissing spine and/or refuses to acknowledge kissing spine can cause issues in horses.

[betonbill]

I don’t have a great eye for lameness, so won’t try to go there. The question that pops up in my mind every time I read stuff here is this: Do we really know anything about how the previous owner (before Benchmark) was as a rider, and also, do we really know anything at all about the qualifications of the trainer the horse was sent to once he got to Texas? The x-rays confirmed a problem, but rider ability both pre- and post sale can also have a lot of influence on the way the horse responds.

[Simkie]

@fivestrideline

We only know NOW that it wasn’t the paper-perfect situation the buyer presented.

Hold up. You think that buyer here was paper perfect? An amateur, out of the saddle for a long time, with a brand new to her trainer? Far away, so no chance of a test ride? Far away so probably no direct knowledge on the sellers part of the pro?

Wow. I can see why we’re so far apart. I’m not even sure what you think the buyer misrepresented–she was straight up with the seller.

Paper perfect to me is a pro, who’d taken a number of “pro ride” “behavioral issues” horses like this from Jessica before and done right by them. THAT’S paper perfect. It could still go wrong, but no one could say boo about the seller sending a horse that direction.

[fivestrideline]

@betonbill

The x-rays confirmed a problem, but rider ability both pre- and post sale can also have a lot of influence on the way the horse responds

Those are some GNARLY X-rays. I am guessing bone shave/removal of processes was the only surgical option.

The success of this horse going forward are going to depend GREATLY on the KS being his “only” issue, the quality of his rehab, the ability of his owner to see non-limping signs of lameness/discomfort, the quality of his shoeing and daily management, and the skills of his rider (if he is ever rideable). KS surgery does not have a sky high success rate long term, but with those rads I agree surgery is probably his best chance at life. That plus 24/7 turnout, meticulous fitness and hoof care, and a job that is unlikely to be dressage at anything but the lowest levels.

I think Amos has been very unlucky in the sense that they have tried to do the right thing, made some mistakes that MOST of us have also made at some point, and somehow have managed to still have everything go wrong. I really, really feel for them on that. For the horse’s sake, I hope they can get this train turned around, and for future horses’ sakes I hope Jessica takes this as a lesson that KS can absolutely cause behavior issues and isn’t to be discounted.

[fivestrideline]

@Simkie

Hold up. You think that buyer here was paper perfect?

How many times do we tell people IF you’re going to buy more horse than you can currently handle (especially as a re-rider that likely could handle a spitfire in the past but just needs to get back in shape), you PPE the horse and put it in training while riding lesson horses/leasing to get yourself ready to ride said hotrod? Same thing you’d do with a baby? Or a fancy WB?

That’s how I am taking it. Buyer says “hey I’m an amateur that’s been out of the saddle BUT I did XYZ in the past, am working with ABC trainers, and will have the horse on full board in full training. Here’s what I want to do with him and the type of horses I’m used to riding”. That’s not an unreasonable choice.

I do disagree that the seller broke some concrete rule by not selling to a theoretical self-proclaimed “pro”, especially since the horse appears to not have been owned by her but was being represented. That does change the ability of the seller to make some choices. Even if she DID own the horse, my opinion stands.

We disagree, entirely, but I really get the impression my posts are being interpreted intentionally wrong.

[Pico_Banana]

One thing I hope this thread does NOT do is scare @Amos away from using this forum as a resource. Yes, some people can sometimes be harsher than they should be, but it’s worth putting up with that to get access to the sheer amount of knowledge this forum has.

Her horse is gorgeous and I think we all agree that he must have a saintly personality. I really hope that he can eventually get comfortable and find a job that is suitable for him.

[Simkie]

@fivestrideline

We disagree, entirely, but I really get the impression my posts are being interpreted intentionally wrong.

I am taking your words at face value. You said:

@fivestrideline

We only know NOW that it wasn’t the paper-perfect situation the buyer presented.

What was paper perfect about this situation from the outset.

@fivestrideline

Buyer says “hey I’m an amateur that’s been out of the saddle BUT I did XYZ in the past, am working with ABC trainers, and will have the horse on full board in full training. Here’s what I want to do with him and the type of horses I’m used to riding”.

We know what Amos said, and it wasn’t this. She’s told us. She posted the email.

But even if what you say IS how she presented it, HOW is that “paper perfect”? That might get a “…well, I guess it could work…” but it’s far from perfect.

I shared my definition of paper perfect above: a pro, purchased horses like this from Jessica before, who has had success with them. It may still blow up–and clearly would’ve here, with this horse’s rads–but that’s the sort of paper perfect that no one can fault the seller for sending the horse in that direction. That sort of sale supports what she said about the horse needing prior to the sale.

[Djones]

I think the left line is snapped to the surcingle at the girth then run through the bit and out to the trainer. The right line is attached to the bit and run through the surcingle to the trainer. He’s being lunged in a big area and he’s hurting- I’m not surprised he’s folded up like a pretzel, but I don’t think the trainer is ‘trying’ for that. she’s trying to show how dangerous he is.

At the end of the day, ESH.