Not all Germans, Oldenburg breeders brought up the forum and invited verband members from other studbooks to discuss. It is because Odenburg Verband der Zuchter is questioning it, not all of Germany.
Tim
One small correctionāthe Germans have only been breeding for sport since the latter part of the 1960ās. Thatās closer to 50 years than 100.
I still would like to see modern day show jumpers over the Olympic courses from 1976, 1984, and 1988 just to see how they would fare. If they would make those courses look like speed bumps, Iād be more than willing to agree that the modern horse is qualitatively better than the ones from that era.
The earlier light types of horses were often cavalry horses. The cavalry sometimes did a bit of jumping but they were the first in Europe I think. Because we do not have so much a foxhunting or steeplechasing history. I was born at the end of 1969 and my love for horses started at around the age of five. I can still remember reading old horse magazines of the time that the sporthorse breeding was quite young actually. Civilians riding just for fun was a rather new concept at the time, not a lot of people had the money.
Often enough people would buy a horse from Ireland if they wanted to do foxhunting.
Sportshistory. The Dutch cavalry officer Pahud de Mortanges won eventing gold twice at the Olympics of 1924 on his horse Marcroix.
http://www.sportgeschiedenis.nl/2007/07/08/nederlands-goud-15.aspx
http://www.google.nl/search?q=pahud+de+mortanges+marcroix&btnG=Zoeken&hl=nl&gbv=2&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=813l7156l0l7625l30l24l2l5l0l0l375l2608l2-6.3l9l0&um=1&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&oq=pahud+de+mortanges+marcroix&aq=f&aqi=&aql=
The cavalry horse (even in the Netherlands!) always had a lot of TB blood.
I love the thoroughbred and can only ride a thoroughbred type horse.
But to me what this thread points out that no āclosed bookā breed is going to easily be at the top of the jumping sportāit is sort of like fighting with one hand behind your back. A closed book means you can not introduce top outside jumping genes to either invigorate or improve your breed.
For me, the modern warmblood is often so blooded now it is easy for me to share my affection for the thoroughbred with them also. Some of them look like a new modern type of thoroughbred (bred for jump not speed). 
This.
If someone can find one post where I say the TB is the better sport horse, and that I could find an OTTB to take to the Olympics please let me see it :lol:
Once again, I posted some nice TBās and basically an argument ensued because the Holsteiner brigade came along and cant help but name drop every famous Holsteiner in the book (snort) and ONE of them was 78% TB so it because a hilarity that I couldnt help but point out.
The problem with this thread is the fact that the OP WANTS a TB stallion ā¦ And apparently the only time you are allowed to cross a TB to a Holsteiner is if you are in germany?
LOL
Let us not forget about this horse :):
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=12688&maxniveau=6
A picture of Katell xx:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/318678/076/Horse_Katell-big.jpg
Back to the stallions for the op lol
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/sirepages.htm?id=10406611
He looks nicer in the video
http://www.olddogwood.com/stallions.html
The top one has some winners at devon it says
I like the look of healy pass myself
Just because I found him while looking 
http://www.stallions.com.au/stallions/reference_stallion_details.php?stallion=Secretariat
What a beautiful guy :yes::yes:
There is a lot of nonsense on the thread, but I think it is equally distributed amongst us all.
Re eventing I donāt think you can use the Olympic gold of a horse that is about 3/4 tb as an argument to say that holsteiners have displaced tbs, any more than you could say that based on the last Olympic team medals, Norway has displaced Germany as the show jumping powerhouse. If that Hol mare in Hol was bred to a gypsy vanner, no one would call it a Hol. O e of the things breeders leave out too often is the rider. For eventing, when looking for a top prospect, very few riders have %of Hol. blood as something they care about. Most do ask about tb blood in a wb prospect. Few want less than 1/2 tb.
Re show jumping and hunters, when it comes to what Us riders and trainers are asking for, it is wbs. For jumpers, Hol does lead the list, but very few trainers/riders are super set on one registry. What they want poses the same issues for US breeders of wbs as it poses for American wb breeders and those trying to market the American auction venue. They want the product of the foal raising and young horse starting and marketing system that you have in Europe. They arenāt usually (although there are exceptions) as concerned with breed and breeding as with the fact that they can arrange to see many well started hoses, often with a fair amount of mileage that is expensive to get in the us, in one trip.
So some of the nonsense about some lone tb breeder putting their money where their mouth is and breeding to a 20k stallion to market as a jumper is pretty transparent as nonsense on examination. The rare sport horse tb breeder and the wb breeder here in the US basically have the same āpipelineā problem and without addressing that US bed horses, in general, will struggle to get the right trainer/rider placement to prove their quality. That has gotten better over the years, but success is weighted towards the breeder who has an effective (in all aspects, including cost effective) way to get their horses well started and associated with a venue where either a prospective buyer can see multiple well started horses on the trip to see the breeders prospect or the breeder is located in an area where there are multiple buyer prospects nearby. Wb breeders here in the us (where lovely stallions still struggle to get mares) have not, with the support of registries and the taste of rider for wbs, really tackled this problem vey well yet (although there is progress) so itās just petty and woefully uninformed economically to snip that if someone REALLY believed in tbs for sport, they just set up shop in Idaho and breed these fantastic tbs with no way to get them started and no way together miles on them economically.
The trainers and riders are interested in the product being sold and that is not just the breeding. It is very much the amount of time a nd effort they have to put in to be up and running with a horse to be shown or resold and the difference between a 5 yo Ottb and a 5 yo jumper started horse in Europe is huge. Not as huge maybe as for the 5 yo jumper bred horse in N Dak who has only been backed 4 times and never been to a show, but still the product isnāt just the breeding.
Not sure how this went where it did, but returning to the op, who probably is bewildered by all this, she seems to know she wants a tb and the best way to try to āset her straightā as to why she doesnāt would probably be in a pm as opposed to implying (even if that was not intended) that sheās nuts for not breeding to a Hol stallion.
Not nonsense. Just the same as I saw a sporthorse by Baquero, heād make an excellent sporthorse sire.
The best horse for the job will be bought. There were excellent approved by various registry TBās given to OP. People who breed Holsteiners were wondering why OP might want a TB stalion for said mare. Next thing you know Giantās Causeway is being added to the mix and yet Iām the one with nonsense.
Donāt talk about it, do it then. Easy to talk about why it canāt be done. I pointed out people involved in both businesses choosing the best horses for the job at hand regardless of breed or registry. If that horse is a TB, they will buy it and pay for the training.
Someone could have bought themselves a TB broodmare today from the same female family as Plot Blue for 3500 euros.
I agree with Omareās post above. Sheās quite right about modern warmbloods.
Terri
I brought him (Causeway) up as an example of why some of the finer American racing TBās are not bred into the sport horse realmā¦
There are 85 THOUSAND reasons why he is not tried on holsteiner mares :lol::lol:
I did not recommend him to the OP LOL!
To discard him as a possible sport horse stallion based on the fact that he is a race horse is to discard the MANY horses listed on this thread that were bred into the Holsteiner lines that raced prior (need I pull them again:))
He is gorgeous however And also Norther Dancer on one side (a line Ive seen several times on the older TBās bred into the holsteiner lines)
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=4297000
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5967098]
He is gorgeous however And also Norther Dancer on one side (a line Ive seen several times on the older TBās bred into the holsteiner lines)
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=4297000[/QUOTE]
Wow a top racehorse sire with ND on top! Lucky find!
Facepalm.
Terri
Letās not forget that there is a big difference when looking at a horse with a high percentage of Tb 4 or 5 generations back versus a horse with high percentage of Tb close up (like a full Tb parent).
Carefully adding blood over time has lead to some wonderful jumpers who now possess the best of both worlds (refinement and quickness of tb with power and substance of wb, as an example). But you donāt necessarily get that same effect when you just take a tb and match it with a wb. Iām not saying you wonāt end up with a fabulous horse, it is just more of a gamble,IMO. And I personally think that the more different the types of the sire and dam, the less predictable the offspring will be. So a TbxWb(with lots of Tb) will probably yield more predictable results than the TbxWb(heavy with very little Tb). Of course this is just my opinion but it may be something to consider.
Carry on!
I doubt the OP is bewildered by this thread, I have a feeling they are laughing at the creation of another round of TB vs WB. Has anyone noticed the OP hasnāt bothered to reply to the crucial question of what she hopes to improve in her mare?
IME, jumper buyers are looking for talented, well started youngsters and the serious ones have a good eye to evaluate the horse in front of them. Iāve never known one to care at that point about registry or breeding. Those play a much bigger role in the sale of foals and IME, the jumper market for foals is minuscule.
FWIW, I am putting āmy money where my mouth isā regarding the use of the TB in my program. Mine will, barring serious injury, be professionally started and put in the ring.
[QUOTE=hntrjmprpro45;5967168]
Letās not forget that there is a big difference when looking at a horse with a high percentage of Tb 4 or 5 generations back versus a horse with high percentage of Tb close up (like a full Tb parent).
Carefully adding blood over time has lead to some wonderful jumpers who now possess the best of both worlds (refinement and quickness of tb with power and substance of wb, as an example). But you donāt necessarily get that same effect when you just take a tb and match it with a wb. Iām not saying you wonāt end up with a fabulous horse, it is just more of a gamble,IMO. And I personally think that the more different the types of the sire and dam, the less predictable the offspring will be. So a TbxWb(with lots of Tb) will probably yield more predictable results than the TbxWb(heavy with very little Tb). Of course this is just my opinion but it may be something to consider.
Carry on![/QUOTE]
The horse brought to question (Marius) was sired and damsired TB.
We were not talking about generations back :yes:
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5967175]
The horse brought to question (Marius) was sired and damsired TB.
We were not talking about generations back :yes:[/QUOTE]
I was speaking in general about the use of Tb when breeding warmbloods not specifically about one horse.
