[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5966232]
Never denied that. As a matter of fact , I have been saying it over and over. The TB blood is essential in the generational breeding of warmbloods.[/QUOTE]
That last word should be hybrids 
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5966227]
On a farm in Holstein:eek:
Well why didnt you say so!
That changes everything :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
You are the one trying to change something. This horse was born a Holsteiner , period. He was not born a TB from a TB motherline.
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5966238]
That last word should be hybrids ;)[/QUOTE]
We already have a word for thisā¦itās called a warmblood.
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5966236]
But reallyā¦ The world calls him Holsteiner because Holstein needs to run their blood through a strainer to avoid getting dead heads that are more draft than anything :eek: Yes I said it. So they do and then still call him a āholsteinā but reallyā¦ Is he?
In the arab world he would have 1/2 papersā¦ Maybe Holstein should give credit where credit is due and give these horses their own registry 
1/2 Holstein (Ill start the petition )
I LOVE the warmbloodā¦ But not fifty years ago YEESH.
Modern horses are all the craze for a reasonā¦ And they are so muddy in the bloodlines it aint funny
I like a little Heinz 57 myself :yes:[/QUOTE]
Muddy ? You just showed your equine knowledge with that statement.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5966242]
We already have a word for thisā¦itās called a warmblood.[/QUOTE]
Okā¦
Im gameā¦
How warm can it get though?
78% for your listed āHolsteinerā lolā¦ Crossed Tb then Tb againā¦
Thats a pretty damn hotblooded warmblood LOL:lol:
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5966245]
Muddy ? You just showed your equine knowledge with that statement.[/QUOTE]
Ok Im game. If you dont like my words drafty/muddy.
Then without ALL of the TONS of Tb crosses in the Holstein lines what WOULD have happened?
What did they need to improve on?
I bet it relates to the cold blood linesā¦ :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5966252]
Ok Im game. If you dont like my words drafty/muddy.
Then without ALL of the TONS of Tb crosses in the Holstein lines what WOULD have happened?
What did they need to improve on?
I bet it relates to the cold blood linesā¦ :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
What would have happened is that we would still be left with a draft horse and your beloved TB would still be winning in the showjumping ring because it wouldnāt have any competition.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5966266]
What would have happened is that we would still be left with a draft horse and your beloved TB would still be winning in the showjumping ring.[/QUOTE]
hahahaha Glad we could agree on something
Im not really a beloved TB fan at all (specifically). My first full Tb Ive owned ohh for a whole full two weeks lol
Iād breed her holstein in a second before full Tb
I just would have no problem telling the world she/he was out of a tb by a holstein
NOMIOMI1,
Your demonstration of ignorance is astonishing. A Holsteiner, or any other Warmblood is a product of its regions breeding practices. This has always been using their own mares, and breeding them to stallions they have chosen, to create the athletes they desire. EVERY WB STUDBOOK has used TBās to this end. Having TB blood does not make it any less WB, on the contrary. It is the focused use of TB stallions on their unique mare base which has allowed them to be so successful. This is WB breeding 101. Your inability to understand has no bearing on this conversation. This is not a discussion of purity, but a discussion of what is successful. Pure, TB breeding for racing has NOT been successful at producing upper level sport horse for todays sport. How they are used is what differentiates one studbook from another. This is why I asked the intent of the OPās request. I was hoping she would breed her Holsteiner the way they are bred in Holstein. Clearly your intent is to dilute the knowledge needed to assist her in this endeavor. As this is a breeding forum, I was hoping this dialog would go to better, PROVEN breeding practices. Clearly you have no intent or desire to discuss either, as arguing TB breeding for sport has not been chosen by ANYONE. I suppose you know otherwise. Best of luck.
Tim
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5966281]
NOMIOMI1,
Your demonstration of ignorance is astonishing. A Holsteiner, or any other Warmblood is a product of its regions breeding practices. This has always been using their own mares, and breeding them to stallions they have chosen, to create the athletes they desire. EVERY WB STUDBOOK has used TBās to this end. Having TB blood does not make it any less WB, on the contrary. It is the focused use of TB stallions on their unique mare base which has allowed them to be so successful. This is WB breeding 101. Your inability to understand has no bearing on this conversation. This is not a discussion of purity, but a discussion of what is successful. Pure, TB breeding for racing has NOT been successful at producing upper level sport horse for todays sport. How they are used is what differentiates one studbook from another. This is why I asked the intent of the OPās request. I was hoping she would breed her Holsteiner the way they are bred in Holstein. Clearly your intent is to dilute the knowledge needed to assist her in this endeavor. As this is a breeding forum, I was hoping this dialog would go to better, PROVEN breeding practices. Clearly you have no intent or desire to discuss either, as arguing TB breeding for sport has not been chosen by ANYONE. I suppose you know otherwise. Best of luck.
Tim[/QUOTE]
And back at ya
Your post shows a clear inability to see the TB for what it is, or credit the breed as a more than valid partner to the holstien (78% is pretty darn valid and with medal results mind you). Your superiority complex is concentrated into a breed of horseā¦ Not exactly something a healthy person does.
I simply put nice Tbās on this thread.
You had something to say negative.
I simply joked about how hot do you need a holstein ( all the while saying how Iād breed that direction in a heartbeat)
You attacked my knowledge.
Good day to you and yours.
Its a Holsteiner, not a Holstein. Holstein is a region in Germany. As a Holsteiner breeder, one would expect that I would concentrate on that breed. I do so because they are the best show jumper breed in the world. I breed for the upper levels in sport of show jumping. Concentrating on any othe breed would be silly. The OP has a Holsteiner mare, I was excited about the discussion. I was not being negative, I was stating facts. You were defending TBās by describing how Holsteiners were better. You were arguing how well these Holsteiners used TB blood, when they were creating Holsteiners. I spent two afternoons with the breeder of Mighty Magic, and another afternoon with the breeder of Marius. They were not breeding for eventers when they created these animals. So ask yourself what they were doing, and you might start to learn about Warmblood breeding instead of rattling off the % of blood these animals have, which means nothing. I have seen Holsteiners with less then 35% blood that would make TBās look like draft horses. The percentage of blood means little, the projection of blood means everything.
Tim
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5966357]
Its a Holsteiner, not a Holstein. Holstein is a region in Germany. As a Holsteiner breeder, one would expect that I would concentrate on that breed. I do so because they are the best show jumper breed in the world. I breed for the upper levels in sport of show jumping. Concentrating on any othe breed would be silly. The OP has a Holsteiner mare, I was excited about the discussion. I was not being negative, I was stating facts. You were defending TBās by describing how Holsteiners were better. You were arguing how well these Holsteiners used TB blood, when they were creating Holsteiners. I spent two afternoons with the breeder of Mighty Magic, and another afternoon with the breeder of Marius. They were not breeding for eventers when they created these animals. So ask yourself what they were doing, and you might start to learn about Warmblood breeding instead of rattling off the % of blood these animals have, which means nothing. I have seen Holsteiners with less then 35% blood that would make TBās look like draft horses. The percentage of blood means little, the projection of blood means everything.
Tim[/QUOTE]
All I hear isā¦ If I type long enough you will forget that holstein(ers) are sometimes bred almost OUT of cold blood and are all TB but a small percentage.
That bothers you greatly doesnt it
Since eventing has gone to the short format, the part TB (50% or so) has a role whereas in the old longer xc format, a full or 7/8 TB was more often superior. Charisma (double Olympic Gold medalist with Mark Todd) was such a 7/8 TB cross and that horse was unbeatable in the way Hickstead was unbeatable on certain days on certain courses. That said, full TB eventer Courageous Comet under a different rider might have become the next Charisma and this is in modern times under the short format. Courageous Comet had fabulous movement and brilliance XC, but had rider related issues in stadium jumping.
But a superior TB sire for sport is just that. The TB Brilliant Invader has sired top international eventers and show jumpers in NZ as well as being damsire to others. I suspect Comet Shine is just as good if more show jump breeders would open their minds to such a thing in the USA. If he were younger, Holstein would be lucky to have him. We have him in the States and we donāt use him much which is a shame.
And yes a superior sport horse TB sire can also improve other breeds such as Holsteiner or SF - Hand in Glove comes to mind in France and Heraldik in Holstein among others.
Nomiomi1,
Hereās what you do, put your money where your mouth is. All those big beautiful TB stallions you mentioned before, most have adoptable OTTBās out there. Show the world what they can do.
Find a super TB mare. Buy her, breed her to a 10k TB stallion or heck, go for 20k. Then raise it, train it, and get it into the right hands and again show the world what theyāre missing.
Itās not good enough to sit at your computer and tell everyone why they should use full TBās, how with access to the good ones the rules would change, and that all Warmbloods are mostly just TB anyway. Walk the talk.
Best have deep pockets. Oh no wait, everyone else should spend their money doing so. Thatās the better option.
And even where worlds collide in equestrian sports, they still choose the best horse for the job. Otherwise Jim Bolger wouldnāt have spent 20k on a purpose bred event horse that was not full TB. He has access to some really well bred TBās, and heās done some house cleaning for the winter. End of season in training sales. And Iām going to step out on a limb here but the Firestoneās daughter( canāt remember her name), was she riding the really well bred TBās in the ring that her parents bred? I believe the Firestoneās breed Warmbloods or did breed warmbloods. The Hales family (Arko) are heavily involved in NH racing yet still choose the best for the job. If the best turns out to be a TB say Sue Magnierās Moonfleet, great but more evidence supports the other way round.
Many of us here love our TBās. But take the blinkers off. Look at the actual evidence and listen to what people say. As per usual this turns into a silly argument. Nobody has argued the TB hasnāt made huge contributions to get where the warmblood is today. And again I state that the TBās that shaped warmblood breeding all those years ago had nothing to offer the racing world so they were sold to use in warmblood breeding programs.
Terri
[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5965637]
Well if thereās nothing to lose then prove it. Get them out there. Donāt blame riders. Most proās can ride what comes their way. But they have to make a living so you need owners to buy and pay for training.
And as a side note some of the reasons horseās like AFR and CG get mentioned over and over on these threads is because their owners have worked hard to make it work. Yes quality stallions but good people behind them.
Terri[/QUOTE]
I was not blaming the riders but I do think that a lot of the better riders do not tend to go for the āunprovenā TB cross. With the warmbloods the lines nowadays have a number of generations going back in time with ancestors that performed in dressage or jumping or maybe both. It is a much saver choice that way. With thoroughbreds the wheel has to be reinvented over and over again in a way. As long as no higher level riders are in the spotlight riding horses with a lot of recent thoroughbred blood crossed in people think the thoroughbred is no good. But maybe I am totally wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong. Recently I read on a Dutch forum that the Germans are in doubt if they are approving the right stallions, Kƶren wir die falschen Hengste?: http://www.bokt.nl/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1552317
It is about a piece of film of five hours (!) of a discussion between people from all the bigger German studbooks, 300 breeders, owners of stallions, journalists and other people that were interested.
Elles,
Wasnāt targeting you! There is a lot of nonsense here on this thread. My life has mostly been about TBās. I love them. I use TB mares in my breeding program because I want the blood from the mare side. But I also am looking forward to my F2 and F3 crosses from the TB damline. Iām still climbing on the backs of TBās every morning because itās a very easy way of making extra cash. When you gallop a TB 3 3/4 miles you know the things that make them different and why in eventing you still need a mostly TB animal for the very upper levels. Lower levels, not so much.
Terri
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5966112]
He is by a TB
How funny is that!
And we say Obama is black :)[/QUOTE]
Some people seem to think that when TB genes get mixed with other ābloodā, the TB genes just evaporate.
Donāt look too much at the xx/ox percentages on www.paardenfokken.nl because these are totally not right, the percentages are way too low actually.
http://www.bokt.nl/forums/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=1497838&hilit=percentage
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5966252]
Then without ALL of the TONS of Tb crosses in the Holstein lines what WOULD have happened?
What did they need to improve on?
I bet it relates to the cold blood linesā¦ :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=1691
One of the best showjumpers of her time (1960s)ā¦Heureka Z. If you want to put stock into the blood percentages on paardenfokken, you will notice XX/OX: 6.05%. By your rationale she would be a part of a ācold blood lineā right? A horse with no discernable thoroughbred influence, winning in the showjumping ring at an international level during the times when the thoroughbred was remarkably competitive in this venue. I would say they didnt NEED to improve on anything in this case.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=442424
Above link includes a picture of Heureka, and although she has limited ābloodā she does not at all look like a ādraft horse.ā
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5966378]All I hear isā¦ If I type long enough you will forget that holstein(ers) are sometimes bred almost OUT of cold blood and are all TB but a small percentage.
That bothers you greatly doesnt it :)[/QUOTE]
Holstein has been breeding amazing horses for a long time and most of their mare lines are not āall TB but a small percentageā and many do not āNEEDā thoroughbred blood to the extent that you are claiming.
If my one example is not good enough look at Ratina dubbed by many the āshowjumping horse of the centuryā (39.26% XX/OX).
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=7149
or even my own mare Santa Barbara (36.92%) who compteted to 1.40 and was limited only by her amateur rider.
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=650913
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61453869@N07/5593828575/in/photostream/
None of these examples are āall thoroughbred but for a small percentage,ā and in fact, holstein has been careful to use the thoroughbred as they use all outside stallionsā¦to bring certain traits into their breeding program to compliment certain mare lines. The use of thoroughbred in holstein has not, in any way, defined the breed. It has made it betterā¦in the same way that the French blood didā¦but has not overshadowed the strength of the mare lines that have existed to breed sport horses for jumping in their own right for almost 100 years.
I havenāt forgot anything, let me give you the list of the top Holsteiner of this year, they are far from āMostly TBā The ones you were shown were for Eventing, these are for showjumping, as they were intended.
Corradina Corrado I/Sandro
Carlo Contender/Cascavelle
EC New Orleans Colbert/Carthago
Casall La Silla Caretino/Lavall 1
Cristallo Caretino/Cicero
Carlina Carvallo/Landgraf
Cellagon Lambrasco Libero/Coriolan
You donāt see a TB for at least the 3rd generation, because they were used a while ago for breeding stock, as I suggested. All Holsteiners, by Holsteiners, out of Holsteiners born in Holstein. Not a single one was sired or broodmare sired by a stallion outsdide of Holstein. You wonāt see this anywhere else. I think you have some more studying to do.
Tim
I repeat.
[QUOTE=Elles;5966501]
Donāt look too much at the xx/ox percentages on www.paardenfokken.nl because these are totally not right, the percentages are way too low actually.
http://www.bokt.nl/forums/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=1497838&hilit=percentage[/QUOTE]
In her picture Heureka Z looks rather āmodernā. Not so much like a coach horse type of horse, more TB like.
Grandfather of Heureka Z:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lopshorn
Look at his picture, he looks a lot like a (modern day) TB. Because he carried a lot of TB genes.
Great grandfather of Heureka Z (she is linebred to him):
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/favorit12
His picture: http://www.elrite.nl/paarden/pictures/favorit.jpg Maybe a bit courser type but still one can see the TB influence.
The coach / carriage horse type is still around in the Gelderlander horse (Gelders paard) the Dutch (light farm)horse āof the pastā but those have never really been big in sport. People used the TB to change / improve these horses, although going back to the end of the 19th century it can be seen they were already infused with TB genes. http://www.boerenvee.nl/uploads/987.jpg
http://www.boerenvee.nl/index.php?page=nieuwsbericht&id=987
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=134880&maxniveau=6
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=4954&maxniveau=6
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=44496&maxniveau=6
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=49609&maxniveau=6
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=68327&maxniveau=6
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=1061&maxniveau=6
So the TB genes just vaporized after a number of generations?
