I am sorry about my link being in Dutch. I wanted to point out that horses in Germany, France and Holland almost all got their elegance (and often athletic ability) from the TB. Althought sometimes the traits came from rather far back in the generations. Paardenfokken.nl is not acuarate about the blood percentages.
Honestly, the fact that I am from Europe does not really add much to the subject. This subject mostly has to do with research and not with where people come from.
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5958581]
I have to agree here. Coconut Grove is the only one approved, and he can make very big. There are much better options for refinement then going to a TB. Furthermore if you are breeding for upper level jumpers, breeding to a TB is going the wrong way.
What is the reason for wanting to breed to a TB in the first place?
Tim[/QUOTE]
Yes he is just trying to have a rational conversation :rolleyes:
What is there not to like? O yes, his USD 7,500 stud fee :-(.
EINSTEIN H, 2002 DP = 9-7-12-0-2 (30) DI = 2.75 CD = 0.70
Horse Inbreeding Stats Crosses Lines Blood% Influence AGR
NEARCO 6S x 6D x 8D x 6D x 8d 5 5 (4) (1) 5.47% 5x6 8.89%
PHALARIS 7S x 8S x 8S x 8D x 10D x 8D x 10D x 10D x 9D x 9D x 8D x 9d x 9D x 10D x 9D x 9D x 10D 17 6 (5) (1) 4.39% 6x6 5.65%*
ST SIMON 10s x 9S x 9s x 10s x 10S x 10S x 10s x 10S x 10S x 9S x 10S x 10s x 10S x 10s x 10S x 10S x 10S x 10s x 10S x 10D x 10D x 10D x 10D x 9D x 10d x 10d x 7D x 10d x 10D x 10D x 10D x 10D x 10d 33 14 (8) (6) 4.30% 6x6 5.66%*
PHAROS 7S x 7S x 7D x 9D x 9d x 7D x 8D x 9D x 9d 9 5 (3) (2) 4.30% 6x6 7.56%
TEDDY 7S x 7s x 10S x 8s x 8s x 8S x 8S x 9S x 10d x 8D x 10D x 10d x 10d 13 9 (4) (5) 4.20% 6x6 4.99%*
PRINCEQUILLO 5S x 7d 2 2 (1) (1) 3.91% 6x6 6.12%
PRINCE ROSE 6S x 6S x 8D x 8D 4 3 (3) (0) 3.91% 6x6 4.71%
WAR ADMIRAL 5s x 8s 2 2 (0) (2) 3.52% 6x6 5.30%
PRECIPITATION 6D x 6D 2 2 (2) (0) 3.13% 6x6 4.28%
SWYNFORD 7s x 9S x 9d x 10D x 10d x 8D x 10D x 10D x 7D x 10D x 9D x 10d 12 7 (3) (4) 3.13% 6x6 4.21%*
BLUE LARKSPUR 6s x 7s x 7s 3 3 (0) (3) 3.13% 6x6 3.76%
KSAR 7S x 8S x 7D x 9D x 7d 5 3 (2) (1) 2.93% 6x7 3.06%
SCAPA FLOW 8S x 8S x 8D x 8D x 10D x 10D x 9D x 8D x 9D x 10D x 9D x 10D 12 2 (2) (0) 2.93% 6x7 5.18%*
RABELAIS 9S x 10S x 9S x 10S x 9D x 8D x 6D x 9D 8 5 (5) (0) 2.93% 6x7 5.17%*
HURRY ON 7d x 10D x 9d x 7D x 9D x 7D 6 5 (3) (2) 2.83% 6x7 3.44%*
MAN O WAR 6S x 9S x 9s x 7S 4 3 (2) (1) 2.73% 6x7 4.02%
TOURBILLON 6S x 7s x 8D 3 3 (2) (1) 2.73% 6x7 4.18%
BLANDFORD 8S x 9D x 9d x 9D x 6d x 9D 6 5 (3) (2) 2.73% 6x7 4.56%
POLYMELUS 8S x 10S x 10S x 9s x 9S x 9S x 9D x 10D x 9D x 9d x 10D x 10D x 10D x 9D x 10D x 10D x 10D x 10D 18 6 (4) (2) 2.73% 6x7 3.94%*
CHAUCER 8s x 9s x 9s x 9s x 9d x 9d x 9d x 10d x 10d x 10D x 9d x 9d x 10D x 10d x 10d x 10d x 10d 17 5 (1) (4) 2.73% 6x7 5.96%*
SPEARMINT 8s x 9s x 9S x 9s x 10s x 9s x 9S x 10s x 9d x 10D x 10d x 9d x 9d x 9d x 9d 15 6 (2) (4) 2.73% 6x7 3.03%*
PLUCKY LIEGE 7S x 10S x 8S x 9D x 8D x 8D x 8D 7 4 (4) (0) 2.64% 6x7 4.74%*
CYLLENE 9S x 10S x 10S x 9S x 10S x 10S x 9S x 10S x 10S x 10S x 10S x 10S x 10D x 10D x 10D x 10d x 8D x 10d x 10D 19 8 (6) (2) 2.44% 6x7 3.23%*
AJAX 8S x 8S x 9S x 9S x 9S x 9s x 10s x 9S x 10S x 10d x 10d x 9D x 10d 13 4 (1) (3) 2.44% 6x7 2.86%*
CANTERBURY PILGRIM 9S x 9S x 10S x 8S x 10S x 10S x 10S x 10D x 10D x 10D x 10D x 9D x 8D x 10D x 10D x 10D 16 3 (3) (0) 2.44% 6x7 3.28%*
LA TROIENNE 6s x 7S 2 2 (1) (1) 2.34% 6x7 5.29%
FAIR TRIAL 6D x 7d 2 2 (1) (1) 2.34% 6x7 5.77%
GAINSBOROUGH 8S x 8D x 9d x 8d x 10D x 9D x 9d x 10D x 10D x 9D x 10D 11 5 (2) (3) 2.34% 6x7 3.13%*
BULL DOG 6s x 7D 2 2 (1) (1) 2.34% 6x7 6.04%
[QUOTE=Elles;5967742]
Honestly, the fact that I am from Europe does not really add much to the subject. This subject mostly has to do with research and not with where people come from.[/QUOTE]
Some people may agree with you about that, but as was discussed above in this thread, the perceptions of the American thoroughbred are very different depending on where in the world you are.
When I lived in Peru and often made trips to Argentina and Columbia for horse shows, the thoroughbred was revered much more in our discussions (at least in my own experience) and because of this they were much more open to discuss breeding their Silla mares to thoroughbreds, and had already done so in many circumstances. In fact, and correct me if I am wrong, but Coconut Grove himself was from/or at least competed for someone based in South America for some time before coming to the US to stand.
Americans, however, seem to have the most distaste for breeding their own Thoroughbreds for sport. All of the potential reasons for this have been discussed on this board at one time or another and arent quite relevant to my post.
I merely said I was interested on your take on the American thoroughbred because I have no knowledge of how Europeans feel on this matter of using American predominantly race-bred thoroughbreds in the future of their breeding programs (outside of holstein and Ireland only thanks to Terri filling us in about the studbook there where this is obviously an important issueā¦this being the signifigance of future contributions to their breeding program by Thoroughbreds).
Please avoid going down the road of personal commentary if choosing to continue participating on this thread.
Think āspiritedā debate vs. āsnarkyāā¦
Thanks ~
Mod 1
[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;5967285]
Whew. What a thread. The only reason Iām posting again is to address one thing to whomever compared WBs to Draft horses.
WBs havenāt been like Draft horses since the late 1700s. Or was it the early 1800s? Regardless, the Europeans began purpose breeding horses between work and riding types literally hundreds of years ago.
.[/QUOTE]
Really??
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/nubert 1926
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/gambo 1927
Only the comparatively wealthy could afford riding horses. The Cavalry in many countries without the Anglo traditions of foxhunting were the main users of riding horses. Everybody everywhere needed cart, wagon, carriage, plow horses, and thatās what most of the working farmers had and wanted. Riding horses were pure luxury.
A lot of military horses in Europe and here were used to pull artillery and supplies. Mules were never as popular in most of Europe as they were here.
[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;5967285]
WBs havenāt been like Draft horses since the late 1700s. Or was it the early 1800s? Regardless, the Europeans began purpose breeding horses between work and riding types literally hundreds of years ago.[/QUOTE]
This lovely little lady is circa 1915:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/239644/800/Horse_Olga.jpg
I think the best part of this thread may be the near-incessant posting of random high end Thoroughbred racing stallions by NOMIOMI as being appropriate for sport (other than racing). None of the stallions posted so far have demonstrated the exterior conformation or form of todayās show jumper. Shows a complete lack of understanding of the type required for the sportā¦
[QUOTE=Stoney447;5967907]
Some people may agree with you about that, but as was discussed above in this thread, the perceptions of the American thoroughbred are very different depending on where in the world you are.
Americans, however, seem to have the most distaste for breeding their own Thoroughbreds for sport. All of the potential reasons for this have been discussed on this board at one time or another and arent quite relevant to my post.
I merely said I was interested on your take on the American thoroughbred because I have no knowledge of how Europeans feel on this matter of using American predominantly race-bred thoroughbreds in the future of their breeding programs (outside of holstein and Ireland only thanks to Terri filling us in about the studbook there where this is obviously an important issueā¦this being the signifigance of future contributions to their breeding program by Thoroughbreds).[/QUOTE]
I think that totally depends on the individual horse. There are American TBās with nice conformation and there are ones with a downhill āQuarter horse likeā conformation. Having said that, not all Quarter horses are built downhill perse.
A picture of Beezie Madden on showjumper Authentic a horse with lots of TB blood (at least 72%): http://boktimg.nl/w/images/thumb/5/52/BeezieMaddenAuthentic_LauraKrautMissIndependent_edited.JPG/765px-BeezieMaddenAuthentic_LauraKrautMissIndependent_edited.JPG He very much has a TB look about him which is to be expected ofcourse. But still he can jump very well with that type of conformation. In fact in Holland a lot of people donāt expect a jumper to be built uphill. Recently I read an article in a Dutch magazine called āBitā that was about the conformation of the best jumpers and best dressage horses. The findings were that most of these horses donāt really look like the best keurings horses.
http://www.bokt.nl/wiki/Laura_Kraut
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authentic_(horse)
This topic on a Dutch forum is about the conformation of sporthorsesā torsos in relation to their performance: http://www.bokt.nl/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1564427
What do you guys think of this Heraldik xx showjumper: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP0GiB8qJtw and these Painterās Row xx horses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByIYCjvZwUk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5p4NY-y1AY&feature=related
[QUOTE=Elles;5968576]
I think that totally depends on the individual horse. There are American TBās with nice conformation and there are ones with a downhill āQuarter horse likeā conformation. Having said that, not all Quarter horses are built downhill perse.
A picture of Beezie Madden on showjumper Authentic a horse with lots of TB blood (at least 72%): http://boktimg.nl/w/images/thumb/5/52/BeezieMaddenAuthentic_LauraKrautMissIndependent_edited.JPG/765px-BeezieMaddenAuthentic_LauraKrautMissIndependent_edited.JPG He very much has a TB look about him which is to be expected ofcourse. But still he can jump very well with that type of conformation. In fact in Holland a lot of people donāt expect a jumper to be built uphill. Recently I read an article in a Dutch magazine called āBitā that was about the conformation of the best jumpers and best dressage horses. The findings were that most of these horses donāt really look like the best keurings horses.
http://www.bokt.nl/wiki/Laura_Kraut
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authentic_(horse)
This topic on a Dutch forum is about the conformation of sporthorsesā torsos in relation to their performance: http://www.bokt.nl/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1564427
What do you guys think of this Heraldik xx showjumper: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP0GiB8qJtw and these Painterās Row xx horses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByIYCjvZwUk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5p4NY-y1AY&feature=related[/QUOTE]
I recently came across a study of the leg conformation of racing TBs which found, āAs carpal angle increased in racing Thoroughbreds, there was a decreased incidence of carpal chip fractures and synovitis/capsulitis in the carpal joints.
These are significant associations implying that as a carpus has a straighter angle, the likelihood of carpal problems increase.ā So it would seem that āidealā leg conformation makes the legs more prone to injury.
Article here (scroll down to āFigure 5ā for the portion of the article I referenced) http://www.equineortho.colostate.edu/questions/conformation.htm
This topic has certainly evolved into a number of other issues.
I saw CC about a year ago. While not a big guy he does have a more favorable impression seen in person compared to photos. On the same trip I also saw a few CC offspring. They jumped a 10 and were very modern.
Iām seriously considering him for 2012.
On the topic of TBās in sport and the Jumper discipline in the USEF it might be a good idea to view the recent forum run by the USEF. As noted in the thread in the H/J forum GM and Murray Kessler had some opinions on TBās.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=329601
http://www.usefnetwork.com/
The forum is available for viewing in three parts. It is quite long but it might be worth it for sporthorse breeders to keep up with what leading trainers and riders think about issues with developing young horses in this country, our role in International sports and the Jumper division in general. Keep in mind that while the opinions may not be in sync with USEF it was sponsored by your NGBā¦
[QUOTE=Dazednconfused;5968504]
I think the best part of this thread may be the near-incessant posting of random high end Thoroughbred racing stallions by NOMIOMI as being appropriate for sport (other than racing). None of the stallions posted so far have demonstrated the exterior conformation or form of todayās show jumper. Shows a complete lack of understanding of the type required for the sportā¦[/QUOTE]
Read the threadā¦
That is not why they were posted 
[QUOTE=Elles;5968576]
I think that totally depends on the individual horse. There are American TBās with nice conformation and there are ones with a downhill āQuarter horse likeā conformation. Having said that, not all Quarter horses are built downhill perse.
A picture of Beezie Madden on showjumper Authentic a horse with lots of TB blood (at least 72%): http://boktimg.nl/w/images/thumb/5/52/BeezieMaddenAuthentic_LauraKrautMissIndependent_edited.JPG/765px-BeezieMaddenAuthentic_LauraKrautMissIndependent_edited.JPG He very much has a TB look about him which is to be expected ofcourse. But still he can jump very well with that type of conformation. In fact in Holland a lot of people donāt expect a jumper to be built uphill. Recently I read an article in a Dutch magazine called āBitā that was about the conformation of the best jumpers and best dressage horses. The findings were that most of these horses donāt really look like the best keurings horses.
http://www.bokt.nl/wiki/Laura_Kraut
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authentic_(horse)
This topic on a Dutch forum is about the conformation of sporthorsesā torsos in relation to their performance: http://www.bokt.nl/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1564427
What do you guys think of this Heraldik xx showjumper: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP0GiB8qJtw and these Painterās Row xx horses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByIYCjvZwUk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5p4NY-y1AY&feature=related[/QUOTE]
Yes.
And lets be honestā¦ Standing next to the jumper ring you donāt always see a ton of perfectly uphill horses, who canter like a dressage horse :lol:
One of our local favorites looks like a polo horse and has a rump that is sky high but MAN can that horse jump!
Here is a stallion that is conformed not by the book http://www.cvssporthorses.co.uk/page4.htm
Even though he was able to compete in both dressage AND jumping. Iād be more interested in a versatile stallion thats throwing versatility than a better conformed one that will only do well in hand
Both would be nice though 
[QUOTE=Stoney447;5967907]
Some people may agree with you about that, but as was discussed above in this thread, the perceptions of the American thoroughbred are very different depending on where in the world you are.
When I lived in Peru and often made trips to Argentina and Columbia for horse shows, the thoroughbred was revered much more in our discussions (at least in my own experience) and because of this they were much more open to discuss breeding their Silla mares to thoroughbreds, and had already done so in many circumstances. In fact, and correct me if I am wrong, but Coconut Grove himself was from/or at least competed for someone based in South America for some time before coming to the US to stand.
Americans, however, seem to have the most distaste for breeding their own Thoroughbreds for sport. All of the potential reasons for this have been discussed on this board at one time or another and arent quite relevant to my post.
I merely said I was interested on your take on the American thoroughbred because I have no knowledge of how Europeans feel on this matter of using American predominantly race-bred thoroughbreds in the future of their breeding programs (outside of holstein and Ireland only thanks to Terri filling us in about the studbook there where this is obviously an important issueā¦this being the signifigance of future contributions to their breeding program by Thoroughbreds).[/QUOTE]
Very interesting. Thank you for posting this.
http://www.cornerstone-farm.ca/reference%20sires.htm
go down on this list to āTotilasā (No not the one showing dressage today)!:eek:
Obviously it is about what the stallion produces
(To the OP I still advise A fine Romance for your mare ) A friend of mine only breeds appendix and she says that he is the leading stallion for TB crosses in terms of progeny and her horses all do very well USEF.
Elles, wish I could read your links, off topic, but I often wonder whether we are improving performance when breeding for the modern type.
[QUOTE=Dazednconfused;5968504]
I think the best part of this thread may be the near-incessant posting of random high end Thoroughbred racing stallions by NOMIOMI as being appropriate for sport (other than racing). None of the stallions posted so far have demonstrated the exterior conformation or form of todayās show jumper. Shows a complete lack of understanding of the type required for the sportā¦[/QUOTE]
Actually some look very niceā¦ Bernardini, More Than Ready, Henry the Navigator, Looking at Lucky, Bauqero and Dynaformerā¦
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5968862]
Read the threadā¦
That is not why they were posted ;)[/QUOTE]
I slogged through the whole thing. Youāre being deliberately obtuse. There is no point in posting them other than for you to say āOMG Look at the pretty ponies!!!111!!!1ā
