Best American Thoroughbred Stallion for Holsteiner mare

[Elles]

[QUOTE=out west;5969022]
Elles, wish I could read your links, off topic, but I often wonder whether we are improving performance when breeding for the modern type.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean with modern type? I think if you would make this horse/picture level the horse would not be uphill: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/339160/705/Horse_Stakkato-_2big.jpg
You would rather favor this type: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/695669/698/Horse_Goldfisch_II-_3big.jpg This horse has had a positive influence but I don’t think anyone really wants to be riding this type nowadays anymore.

[out_west]

good point. What I meant was the very leggy look that is popular now. I have two quite leggy boys, and a newer, deep bodied filly. The filly is the most naturally uphill of the three and shows great ability to sit. Of course you can never generalize from individuals. I was just wishing I could read the discussion as it is a very interesting topic.

[NOMIOMI1]

[QUOTE=Dazednconfused;5969172]
I slogged through the whole thing. You’re being deliberately obtuse. There is no point in posting them other than for you to say “OMG Look at the pretty ponies!!!111!!!1”[/QUOTE]

They are quite beautiful …

I am glad we can agree on something even if you are quite rude.

[Stoney447]

[QUOTE=Elles;5968576]
I think that totally depends on the individual horse. There are American TB’s with nice conformation and there are ones with a downhill “Quarter horse like” conformation. Having said that, not all Quarter horses are built downhill perse.
A picture of Beezie Madden on showjumper Authentic a horse with lots of TB blood (at least 72%): http://boktimg.nl/w/images/thumb/5/52/BeezieMaddenAuthentic_LauraKrautMissIndependent_edited.JPG/765px-BeezieMaddenAuthentic_LauraKrautMissIndependent_edited.JPG He very much has a TB look about him which is to be expected ofcourse. But still he can jump very well with that type of conformation. In fact in Holland a lot of people don’t expect a jumper to be built uphill. Recently I read an article in a Dutch magazine called “Bit” that was about the conformation of the best jumpers and best dressage horses. The findings were that most of these horses don’t really look like the best keurings horses.

http://www.bokt.nl/wiki/Laura_Kraut

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authentic_(horse)

This topic on a Dutch forum is about the conformation of sporthorses’ torsos in relation to their performance: http://www.bokt.nl/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1564427

What do you guys think of this Heraldik xx showjumper: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP0GiB8qJtw and these Painter’s Row xx horses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByIYCjvZwUk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5p4NY-y1AY&feature=related[/QUOTE]

I like the Heraldik horse you linked quite a bit. The athleticism is undenyable.

I guess, for me, I just wish there was some sort of paradigm to breed horses like this. Of course, when one goes to breed in any case you do a lot of research and have to make decisions that are risky one way or another. However, being a small time breeder with only three mares to work with at this point, I suscribe to the Holsteiner camp because that is where my girls fit best and also where there is a lot of information available about families and production, both recent and far removed.

That being said, I would not hesitate to use Coconut Grove on my Heureka mare in the future since he falls within the breeding paradigm of the AHHA. My only concern would be the fact that she desperatly needs more power behind and I am not certain I would find it there.

I think that the Thoroughbred situation is a Catch 22 of sorts. Breeders look to the registries to help inform them of direction for their breeding program (very few people want horses that cannot be registered in this economy) and the registries need people to breed horses (thoroughbreds) that are worth standing behind…I think the links of the race stallions above demonstrate the fact that there is a financial reason why they will never be used in sport breeding, so the new wave of outstanding Thoroughbred stallions will come from where? Which needs to come first?

[Elles]

Not all thoroughbreds are expensive to buy and not all stallions have high stud fees. If you follow sales results of thoroughbred sales than you shall see that quite a lot of horses are sold for low prices.
Look here for sales prices: http://www.bloodhorse.com/auctions-tool/

Stallions with low stud fees:
Stallion Sire Farm Location Fee Entered Stud
Action This Day Kris S. Indiana Stallion Station IN $1,000 2005
Act of War Lord At War (Arg) Lake Shore Farms, Inc. IN $1,000 2008
Article of Faith Storm Cat RichWine IN $1,000 2008
Blue Boat Gulch RichWine IN $1,000 2005
Bravo Bull Holy Bull ISU Horse Farm IA $1,000 2004
Bye Bye Crafty Crafty Prospector Cloverhill Farms IN $500 2009
Cactus Creole Miswaki Engelauf’s Thoroughbreds CA $1,000 2000
Charging Indian Indian Charlie RichWine IN $1,000 2008
Dance to Destiny Mr. Prospector Sam-Son Farm CAN 1,000 (C$) 2005
Demaloot Demashoot Bold Ruckus McMaster Farm MI $1,000 1997
Elusive Bluff Elusive Quality Red River Farms LA $750 2010
Entepreneur Cure the Blues All Star Thoroughbreds LA $1,000 2003
Erlton Buckaroo All Star Thoroughbreds LA $1,000 2003
Glasnost Awesome Again Paradise IN $1,000 2009
Goods Tale of the Cat Foot Fall Farm IN $1,000 2006
Grand Chance Grand Slam Bogue Stables IN $1,000 2004
Inamorato Tale of the Cat Roberts Racing Stables IN $1,000 2007
Lycius Mr. Prospector Briar Hill Farm MA $1,000 1992
Moro Oro Moro Sorrell Farm IN $1,000 1999
Mr. Livingston El Prado (Ire) Fanlew Farms LA $1,000 2005
Musical Chairs Woodman Brady Equestrian Center MN $1,000 2005
Pink Viper Smoke Glacken Fanlew Farms LA $1,000 2011
Service Stripe Deputy Minister Caines Stallion Station OK $1,000 1997
Southern Success Dixieland Band Indiana Stallion Station IN $1,000 2008 Syncline Danzig McMaster Farm MI $1,000 2003
STALLION SEARCH RESULTS
Results per page: 25 50 100 All Page 2 of 35 First Prev 25 Next 25 Last

Stallion Sire Farm Location Fee Entered Stud
Unbridled Express Unbridled’s Song Breakway Farm, LLC IN $1,000 2010
Lake George High Meadow CA $500 2011
Bexx Badd Boyy Whinny Farms Stallion Station OR $500 2011
Aahsaylad =Ardross (Ire) Bridge Stud IRE €750 1996
Achilles of Troy Notebook Mid Life Crisis Thoroughbreds KY $1,000 2008
Administration Hennessy Lawhonhill TX $1,000 2005
Affirmatif Unbridled’s Song Diamond G Ranch, Inc. OK $1,000 2011
Air Academy Royal Academy Lora Y. Lowe OK – 0
Air Quest Rainbow Quest Swallows Oast Stud ENG £500 1998
All American Hero Consigliere (GB) War Cry Race Farm OR $750 2009
Allamystique Airdrie Apache Reed Hill Farm TN $600 2007
Allover Spinning World Few Acre Farm ID $1,000 2006
Allowance Delaware Township White Horse Ranch OK – 0
Al Namix =Linamix (Fr) Haras de Mirande FR €1,000 2005
Alymagic Alydar Daehling Ranch, LLC CA $1,000 1991
Alysweep End Sweep Indiana Stallion Station IN $1,000 2005
Alyzig Danzig Red River Farms LA $1,000 2004
American Fleet Afleet Alex Mardi’s Racing Stables MS $500 2010
American Fury Souvenir Copy G. W. Equine Services CAN 1,000 (C$) 2009
American General Danzig Three Boys Stable AR $1,000 1989
American Spirit Storm Boot Double Diamond Farm FL $1,000 2004
American Tribute Mr. Prospector Pomerosa Farms LA $1,000 2000
Andanight Night Beat Nelco Farms TX $600 2008
And Beyond =Darshaan (GB) Scarrow Hill Stud ENG £800 2003
Another Great Show Show Dancer The Links AL $600 1999

One of those horses mentioned above: http://www.pedigreequery.com/lycius

But I must add that this guy is a very tempting one but one that will be very expensive:
FRANKEL C, 2008 DP = 5-2-15-7-1 (30) DI = 0.94 CD = 0.10

Horse Inbreeding Stats Crosses Lines Blood% Influence AGR
NORTHERN DANCER 3S x 4D 2 2 (2) (0) 18.75% 3x4 24.18%
NATALMA 4S x 5D x 5d 3 2 (1) (1) 12.50% 4x4 15.46%
NATIVE DANCER 5s x 6S x 6d x 6d x 7D 5 2 (1) (1) 8.59% 5x5 9.68%
NEARCO 5S x 8S x 8S x 8S x 8S x 6D x 7D x 8D x 8D 9 4 (4) (0) 7.81% 5x5 10.82%
BUCKPASSER 5s x 5d 2 2 (0) (2) 6.25% 5x5 8.36%
PHAROS 6S x 9S x 9s x 9S x 9S x 9S x 9S x 7D x 8D x 8D x 10d x 9D x 9D x 9D x 9D x 9D x 9d 17 8 (5) (3) 5.57% 5x6 8.31%*
HYPERION 6s x 7S x 8s x 8s x 7d x 9D x 7D x 9D 8 7 (4) (3) 5.08% 5x6 8.43%
PHALARIS 7S x 9S x 10S x 10S x 10S x 10S x 10S x 10S x 10S x 9S x 10S x 9s x 10S x 8D x 10D x 10D x 9D x 9D x 9D x 10D x 9D x 9D x 9d x 10D x 10D x 10D x 10D x 10D x 10D x 9D 30 8 (6) (2) 4.88% 5x6 5.80%*
RAISE A NATIVE 5S x 6d 2 2 (1) (1) 4.69% 5x6 8.99%
GAINSBOROUGH 7S x 8s x 10S x 8S x 9S x 9S x 8D x 9d x 10D x 9D x 8D x 10d x 9d x 10D x 10D x 10D x 10D x 9D x 10d x 10d 20 6 (5) (1) 4.39% 6x6 5.32%*
BLANDFORD 8S x 10S x 8s x 10S x 10S x 9s x 9S x 9S x 8S x 9D x 10D x 9D x 9D x 8d x 9D x 9D x 9D x 10D x 8D 19 8 (5) (3) 4.20% 6x6 5.37%*
SELENE 7S x 9S x 8S x 10S x 9S x 9S x 9S x 8D x 10D x 10D x 10D x 8D x 9D x 10D x 9D x 10D x 9d x 9d 18 4 (3) (1) 4.10% 6x6 6.47%*
NASRULLAH 7S x 7S x 7s x 6D 4 4 (3) (1) 3.91% 6x6 9.99%
MAHMOUD 6s x 7d x 8d x 7d x 8d 5 3 (0) (3) 3.91% 6x6 7.34%
TEDDY 9S x 10s x 9S x 9s x 10s x 8S x 9S x 9S x 9s x 10S x 10S x 9s x 9S x 9D x 10D x 9D x 9d x 9D x 9d x 9D x 10D x 10D 22 10 (5) (5) 3.81% 6x6 4.22%*
BLENHEIM2 7S x 10s x 9s x 9s x 9s x 8S x 8D x 9D x 8D x 8d x 9D 11 3 (2) (1) 3.42% 6x6 5.66%*
SWYNFORD 8s x 9S x 10s x 10S x 9S x 10S x 10S x 10S x 9s x 9S x 9d x 10D x 10d x 10D x 10D x 9D x 10D x 10D x 10D x 10d x 10D x 9D 22 8 (3) (5) 3.13% 6x6 4.37%*
PRINCEQUILLO 6s x 6D 2 2 (1) (1) 3.13% 6x6 4.32%

[Elles]

Unfortunately in Dutch again but an interesting article about the Holsteiner influence:
http://www.bokt.nl/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=178136
And part 2 about the thoroughbreds:
http://www.bokt.nl/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=178254

[grayarabpony]

Elles there are a lot of low-priced Tbs to be had at auctions, especially in this economy. There are many relatively low-priced Tbs studs too, some of which have sired top sport horses. The value of a racing stud often has little to do with that stallion’s value as a sport horse. The problem with them is that the mare must be shipped to them (and this is a big country) because the stallions are not collected for AI. There are also loads of Tbs retiring from the track every year that need a home.

If it seems strange that the US has so many TBs yet they are often scorned on this board, you have to realize that COTH is a strange place. In addition, most breeders here do not ride and breed to sell. So the same 5-10 stallions (usually European warmbloods) keep getting recommended over and over, which is not good for the future of breeding. So few Tb stallions are recommended because not many are stood for sport and collect semen for shipping.

Jumper and hunter riders used to get their horses straight off the track. Then in the '80’s warmbloods started being imported for cheap. Not necessarily better quality, but easier to track down and ready to go into the jump ring. Prices have gone up but people still import.

People will lament how many sprinter bred TBs there are now, but the Kentucky Derby is still 1 1/4 miles and the Belmont is still a mile and a half. Do Tbs really look so different now from the horses in the link? http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Hyperion.html In any case both the best racehorses and the best sport horses have the qualities of both sprinters and stayers.

There are those that say that the modern warmblood is at a pinnacle and cannot be improved and the TB can’t add anything. I don’t think that’s true and I certainly don’t think it’s true of many of the warmblood mares that we have here in this country. In fact, I was thinking of the use of adding further Tbs after watching some warmbloods really struggling in the last classes of the WEG in both dressage and showjumping.

Breeding is about the future and possibilities, not just the next cross, but it can be difficult to discuss that here.

[NOMIOMI1]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5970473]
Elles there are a lot of low-priced Tbs to be had at auctions, especially in this economy. There are many relatively low-priced Tbs studs too, some of which have sired top sport horses. The value of a racing stud often has little to do with that stallion’s value as a sport horse. The problem with them is that the mare must be shipped to them (and this is a big country) because the stallions are not collected for AI. There are also loads of Tbs retiring from the track every year that need a home.

If it seems strange that the US has so many TBs yet they are often scorned on this board, you have to realize that COTH is a strange place. In addition, most breeders here do not ride and breed to sell. So the same 5-10 stallions (usually European warmbloods) keep getting recommended over and over, which is not good for the future of breeding. So few Tb stallions are recommended because not many are stood for sport and collect semen for shipping.

Jumper and hunter riders used to get their horses straight off the track. Then in the '80’s warmbloods started being imported for cheap. Not necessarily better quality, but easier to track down and ready to go into the jump ring. Prices have gone up but people still import.

People will lament how many sprinter bred TBs there are now, but the Kentucky Derby is still 1 1/4 miles and the Belmont is still a mile and a half. Do Tbs really look so different now from the horses in the link? http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Hyperion.html In any case both the best racehorses and the best sport horses have the qualities of both sprinters and stayers.

There are those that say that the modern warmblood is at a pinnacle and cannot be improved and the TB can’t add anything. I don’t think that’s true and I certainly don’t think it’s true of many of the warmblood mares that we have here in this country. In fact, I was thinking of the use of adding further Tbs after watching some warmbloods really struggling in the last classes of the WEG in both dressage and showjumping.

Breeding is about the future and possibilities, not just the next cross, but it can be difficult to discuss that here.[/QUOTE]

This^^^

If you started a thread for stallions with the least amount of Tb’s in their pedigree I bet it would rule out many of the very popular lines.

[RyTimMick]

@grayarabpony;5970473

Elles there are a lot of low-priced Tbs to be had at auctions, especially in this economy. There are many relatively low-priced Tbs studs too, some of which have sired top sport horses. The value of a racing stud often has little to do with that stallion’s value as a sport horse. The problem with them is that the mare must be shipped to them (and this is a big country) because the stallions are not collected for AI. There are also loads of Tbs retiring from the track every year that need a home.

If it seems strange that the US has so many TBs yet they are often scorned on this board, you have to realize that COTH is a strange place. In addition, most breeders here do not ride and breed to sell. So the same 5-10 stallions (usually European warmbloods) keep getting recommended over and over, which is not good for the future of breeding. So few Tb stallions are recommended because not many are stood for sport and collect semen for shipping.

Jumper and hunter riders used to get their horses straight off the track. Then in the '80’s warmbloods started being imported for cheap. Not necessarily better quality, but easier to track down and ready to go into the jump ring. Prices have gone up but people still import.

People will lament how many sprinter bred TBs there are now, but the Kentucky Derby is still 1 1/4 miles and the Belmont is still a mile and a half. Do Tbs really look so different now from the horses in the link? http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Hyperion.html In any case both the best racehorses and the best sport horses have the qualities of both sprinters and stayers.

There are those that say that the modern warmblood is at a pinnacle and cannot be improved and the TB can’t add anything. I don’t think that’s true and I certainly don’t think it’s true of many of the warmblood mares that we have here in this country. In fact, I was thinking of the use of adding further Tbs after watching some warmbloods really struggling in the last classes of the WEG in both dressage and showjumping.

Breeding is about the future and possibilities, not just the next cross, but it can be difficult to discuss that here.

Actually,

I have come across a couple TB stallion owners that would not only offer fresh cooled, but would also offer it at a discount to sport horse breeders. Not reason people can’t choose to breed sport horse TB’s.

Tim

[NOMIOMI1]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5970601]
Actually,

I have come across a couple TB stallion owners that would not only offer fresh cooled, but would also offer it at a discount to sport horse breeders. Not reason people can’t choose to breed sport horse TB’s.

Tim[/QUOTE]

Very true but as another posted the open registry is producing the best horses for the job ie… Holsteiner.

That was never debated.

When I brought up the racing stallions it was to say “imagine” them to a holsteiner mare not back to a TB (shrug)… Some of them are rather lovely IMO, but they are expensive so…

Tim,

I have no problem agreeing that you know very much about the Holsteiner registry, and I’d love to get some questions answered about it as a friend of mine will be importing a Holsteiner stallion soon and I am trying to decide myself if I should cross my own Tb to him or not

They also want to cross him to an arabian sport horse mare that is a jumper with Russian lines (some of the hotter lines) and I was told that there have been some great outcomes breeding small and hot to the holsteiner lines, but have any of them been arab?

Obviously they have holsteiner mares to cross as well, but the arab mare is something I would be interested in hearing if anyone has seen that done, and any pictures or info.

[selah]

[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5970618]
…a friend of mine will be importing a Holsteiner stallion soon and I am trying to decide myself if I should cross my own Tb to him or not [/QUOTE]

16.3H 4y.o. Hol/TB gelded the day before this, now owned by an eventer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lr32ccmqBw

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=selah;5970639]
16.3H 4y.o. Hol/TB gelded the day before this, now owned by an eventer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lr32ccmqBw[/QUOTE]

and this horse is a perfect example of why this type of breeding does not work for top sporthorses.

[Equilibrium]

Except Selah said horse was sold to an eventer. Sporthorse is a very broad term to describe many horses. For SJ agreed, for eventing I disagree. Eventers at the top level still need blood. The lower levels are ok to finish on your dressage score but you still need to gallop between those cross country fences. You can’t get away without having a gallop.

I did not look at said video and see SJ, but I did see a horse with a very nice ground covering stride. He was sold for what he looks like he was made for. Viney mentioned CR and how is best eventers were from TB mares and very blood type mares. And he is still being used on TB mares this year. Before we make snide comments, CR’s owner bred him to TB mares. I would not consider him somebody who doesn’t have a clue.

Terri

[vineyridge]

That’s nasty and uncalled for, Bayhawk. Still waiting for evidence of actual performing TOP sport horses that you have bred or who have been bred from your breeding.

This guy is young, he’s big, and if he had been gelded the day before, he was also sore.

Would you like to explain just what you see in this video that convinces you that this guy is incapable of working at the “top”, whatever you consider that to be? And don’t pull your usual, “if you can’t see it, I’m certainly not going to show you” or a similar response.

[NOMIOMI1]

[QUOTE=selah;5970639]
16.3H 4y.o. Hol/TB gelded the day before this, now owned by an eventer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lr32ccmqBw[/QUOTE]

Oh yes, HORRIBLE decision :eek:

Tell the new owners they should send him to me and they made a big mistake

We have alot of eventers here, so I would fit right in!

lol, plus I dont believe for a second that he couldnt SJ just based off of one video of him running round with his tail up, on a hill no less!

I am learning very quickly that many breeders are sometimes so confo blinded that when a horse with 5000 pounds of too much bones that can barely jog comes along… If it has the confo though… Its a show jumper or dressage horse! lol Just look at that shoulder even if he barely can maneuver his stall :lol:

OR they tell me about this great showjumping stallion, and he barely topped out under saddle at 3.6 but since his progeny can free jump in a chute… Well he MUST be great.

:lol: We have a pony here that can jump out of his stall but Im not calling him the next Judgement.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5970781]
That’s nasty and uncalled for, Bayhawk. Still waiting for evidence of actual performing TOP sport horses that you have bred or who have been bred from your breeding.

This guy is young, he’s big, and if he had been gelded the day before, he was also sore.

Would you like to explain just what you see in this video that convinces you that this guy is incapable of working at the “top”, whatever you consider that to be? And don’t pull your usual, “if you can’t see it, I’m certainly not going to show you” or a similar response.[/QUOTE]

It wasn’t nasty. I commented on what someone put out there for the world to see. These are my opinions and I am entitled to them. I don’t like the “lunging” movement with the front end. I don’t like that the legs aren’t quick enough. I don’t like the canter. I don’t like the trot ( what little they showed of it) . I don’t like the shoulder movement and I don’t like the lack of elasticity up thru the top line. He’s pretty though…

Unlike you Viney , I have seen hundreds of top sporthorses around the world. No one needs to have bred one of them to know what they are looking at. If that’s the case , we wouldn’t have one of the most respected men in the world as the breeding director of the Holsteiner Verband. Dr. Nissen has never bred the first horse.

If you don’t like my opinion of this horse ,so be it. Is it my opinion though.

[vineyridge]

I haven’t seen hundreds of them, but I do go to Rolex almost every year and have for ten years, and I did go to the WEGs in Lexington and have seen a few CDIs and CSIs. Granted the horses were under saddle and could only be compared to each other because I’m certainly not trained as a judge. I figure that adds up to maybe 400 top sport horses over the years. But I make no claim at all to being able to judge anything except the quality of gallop for an event horse.

[NOMIOMI1]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5970952]
It wasn’t nasty. I commented on what someone put out there for the world to see. These are my opinions and I am entitled to them. I don’t like the “lunging” movement with the front end. I don’t like that the legs aren’t quick enough. I don’t like the canter. I don’t like the trot ( what little they showed of it) . I don’t like the shoulder movement and I don’t like the lack of elasticity up thru the top line. He’s pretty though…

Unlike you Viney , I have seen hundreds of top sporthorses around the world. No one needs to have bred one of them to know what they are looking at. If that’s the case , we wouldn’t have one of the most respected men in the world as the breeding director of the Holsteiner Verband. Dr. Nissen has never bred the first horse.

If you don’t like my opinion of this horse ,so be it. Is it my opinion though.[/QUOTE]

So the answer is that you have bred none then?

But you feel like your above very harsh comment is a valid opinion because you have seen top sport horses around the world?

Everyone has youtube FYI :lol:

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5970992]
I haven’t seen hundreds of them, but I do go to Rolex almost every year and have for ten years, and I did go to the WEGs in Lexington and have seen a few CDIs and CSIs. Granted the horses were under saddle and could only be compared to each other because I’m certainly not trained as a judge. I figure that adds up to maybe 400 top sport horses over the years. But I make no claim at all to being able to judge anything except the quality of gallop for an event horse.[/QUOTE]

Like I said , I wasn’t trying to be nasty only commenting that I don’t like this type of sporthorse as it has all pull and very little push. This is the reason it lunges forward so much in it’s initial take off. The forward momentum is not being generated from behind.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5971000]
So the answer is that you have bred none then?

But you feel like your above very harsh comment is a valid opinion because you have seen top sport horses around the world?

Everyone has youtube FYI :lol:[/QUOTE]

Maybe if you would get off of Youtube and go in person to World Cups , Hamburg Derby’s , WC Qualifiers etc. , you may in fact learn something.