[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;5962409]
More reasonable stud fee but ive seen a horse by him that was awesome sport wise 
http://www.oakhurstthoroughbreds.com/stallions.asp?stallion_name=Baquero[/QUOTE]
Well since I used to get on him, no thanks as a sporthorse sire! Downhill movement and I used to hold my breath when pulling up whispering, please donât stumble!
Terri
Why the debate folks?
I still donât understand why anyone needs to point out TBvsWB in the sport horse world?
IF this was that kind of thread Iâd be the first one to say that the WB had done far more in that world⊠But its not :no:
This is a thread about Tbâs and tb stallions.
Wbâs dont need cheerleaders :lol::lol::lol:
We all know how nice they are hence the OP has one sheâd like to breed 
[QUOTE=Elles;5964129]
How about all the TBâs in Hicksteadâs background: http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=1039&maxniveau=6
A lot of his ancestors were not bred for jumping either!! A lot of them never got to jump during their lifetimes. For example this one: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&search_bar=horse&horse=GAMBO&g=5&t= There the following is said about the horse: A GrPS Winner in carriage-horse classes in the Netherlands.
This one to me looks like a rather nice horse but I do not know his breeding: http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-484444[/QUOTE]
Yep
Nobody should have to defend why this OP wants blood on top of her mareâŠ
The TBâs have their place and are incredible horses, along with the Warmblood.
No need to debate who does what better.
We can starts some thread for the people here who cant let it go.
Lets call one âWhy Wbâs cannot win the Kentucky Derby.â
And the other âWhy Tbâs cannot win dressage Olympics.â
Rolley eyes
Hold your horses!
http://www.trakehners-international.com/PDF/thoroughbreds.pdf
Pernod xx with Willi Schultheiss. This outstanding TB stallion not only raced successfully on the flat, but was one of Germanyâs best dressage horses in the 50s of the 20th century. Via his home stud, the world famous GestĂŒt Vornholz, owned and operated by Baron von Nagel, he later served as a breeding stallion. He is, e.g., the dam sire of the Grand Prix stallion Rio Negro (also ridden by Willi Schultheiss).
Pernod xx was sired by Marcellus xx out of Perlenreihe xx by Anakreon xx, out of the highly successful mare family of Postenkette xx. This family also produced the major sires Pindar xx, Pik As xx and Perser xx. Photo credit: âDas Dressurpferdâ by Harry Boldt.
While we are tossing out names sure to infuriate, letâs not forget to mention Gemini for good measure. American TB, bloodlines as proven in sport as bloodlines can be. And available next year!
I am finding much off of what you put
Check out this reference sire page
Lots of Tbâs on there
http://www.cornerstone-farm.ca/reference%20sires.htm
Pik as XX 15.2 Tb sire He is doubled up on dam side of Wildcard!
There a bunch more
Edited to ad there is some Anglo arabs too
LUGANO I - MATERNAL GREAT GRAND SIRE OF DONNERKEIL
Lugano I, a successful jumper, typifies the contribution to jumping performance of Der Loewe xx in the Hanoverian breed. Lugano Iâs sire, Der Loewe xx was one of the most influential thoroughbred stallions standing at the Hanoverian state stud at Celle. He was the leading thoroughbred sire with regard to the number of registered competition horses sired. He was the founder of the much respected âLâ line. Lugano I sired Lukant who is the dam sire of Donnerkeil.
( I looked him up and he also had raced
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5961306]
Since things can easily be misunderstood on this forum, I would like to Clarify. I maybe shoud have done this in the first place. I like Coconut Grove XX. I have seen many of his offspring, and they were all athletic. The mares of these offspring were also. I follow what is done in Holstein, because they are best in my opinion. They do not breed to TB stallions to increase scope, or movement, or type. They breed to them for refinement, quickness, sensitivity, legs, and overall bloodedness. And they do it to produce breeding stock not sport horses. Its not to say that a good sport horse might not come out of it, but that isnât why they do it. They then take these well typed, athletic, refined, beautiful dams and breed with them. Some of the best breeding Holsteiners are half breds. Some times that is a Stallion.
So, I was not trying to make this about Coconut Grove xx, or TB over anything else. I asked why the ower of this Holsteiner mare was wanting to breed to a TB stallion, when this is not done frequently in Holstein. Almost everyone jumped in here without any knowledge of this mare, what her type is, what she needs, or how she breeds, yet a slew of TB names were thrown at her. I wanted to know why she wanted a TB stallion, because I wanted to know what she was aiming for. Again, as someone already stated, these halfbreds are traditionally bred for breeding stock in the future. If this wasnât her goal, maybe a TB isnât her best choice. I donât know. I would suspect neither does anyone else. Either which way I still feel it was right to ask why to help improve the dialog, and until I feel like most people understand the difference between refinement and modern I will continue to ask whyâŠ
Tim[/QUOTE]
Completely agree :yes:
Der Loewe xx sire of Lugano I, Lugano I sire of Lugano van la Roche, Lugano van la Roche sire of Darco. Howâs that for jump
I am doing a bit of dressage on my appendix Quarterhorse. The lady that teaches me teaches people with all kinds of horses, Spanish, warmblood, western breeds, Friesians, etc. She herself has Friesians. Although my gelding unfortunately has bone spavin my teacher has a lot of times told me he is doing rather well (at times). Ofcourse not all the time because of his bone spavin.
As much as I love TBs, and I DO, I have to point out that most of the TBs in the European WB pedigrees are NOT American TBs. Those TBs (English and the like) are quite different from our American TBsâŠmuch more âWarmblood likeâ in their builds and athleticisms.
That said, I still donât see why WBs are so far superior for eventing and even show jumping.
Gem Twist, The Natural, For the Moment, I could go on and on. These horses could win in todayâs jumper ring.
Someone said that the biggest issue is that we quit breeding TBs for sport. I have to agree. It is pretty depressing that the list of TB stallions I would actually breed to is a list of only 4 or 5 and the list of WB stallions I would breed to is 5 times that.
I am not really sure that that is the case. Maybe there are more suitable stallions here than there are in America but I do not agree that most are so much better than the TBâs you have in America. A lot of bloodlines are related.
Well, as a group WBs are superior for jumping because they are purpose-bred to do it. Stands to reason that a good percentage would excel at it. Just as particular lines of quarter horses are superior for reining because they are bred for that purpose.
That does not mean that all WBs are better for jumping than all TBs. Nor all all QHs suitable for reining â my QH is no more suitable for reining than Quaterback is, he is bred to be a hunter and could not spin or slide to save his life. Not built for it nor is he supposed to be. Same story with TBs and WBs. TBs are currently bred to race, happens that some of them are athetic enough to jump too, and do it well. Not the purpose though. Not to say they are bad, but it is what it is. I love TBs but to say there is no reason why WBs are good at jumping is just ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5964126]
JER, might need to give you an invite to our Irish Breeder group! The cross you are talking about is coming up lacking in athletisicism as well. [/QUOTE]
My point was only that the TB stallion x IDSH mare cross produced numerous top-level horses for decades. Not all from this cross were top-level; quality control was often lacking in Irish breeding, etc.
But horses like Kilbaha, Welham (British-bred but the same formula), and Ryanâs Son were all by TB stallions out of part-bred mares.
Thank you JER. At the moment there is a debate going on to split the HSI registry. But not all want to lose the Native mare base but native diluted. So hard to split a book when you want some mares and not others. I guess they could go with a blood percentage quota.
They need the TB for generation breeding in the jumpers but the TBâs here are a bit lacking. One of the better ones, Stormhill Miller wasnât initially approved and Master Imp is now dead. Itâs all very complicated at the moment.
But when you arenât seeing any progeny at the top levels in SJ here they are a hard sell. People need to make money. They canât breed on heart alone. And like I said, if your using the TB to improve your mare herd down the line, colts are a losing proposition in interim.
Terri
Dressagelvr I think you need a lot more qualifiers on that statement. A stallion like Cardinal is light boned by even todayâs American tb standards. And while Ladykillerâs progeny seemed to get heavy easily and need reinfusions, he was definitely not a 9 inch bone guy.
I assume the poster knows why she wants some tb options and if not, she can now revamp that request. Some typical reasons to warn tb are to get the bone hardness, to get the agility and quickness, to get heart and try, to get focus and commitment, to get responsiveness, to lighten up and to get some explosion off the ground and to improve length of stride and ability to eat ground if you have too carriagey a gait to hit the longs. You might not increase scope out of an already scopey mare and you need scope for a gp horse. Otoh, the win doesnâtby any means go always to the horse with scope but no responsiveness, speed, length of stride etc.
Just as a fwiw, since the topic has drifted to costs of race stallions, I think some might find it interesting to look through the stallion info for Adena Springs stallions. Given the costs and issues of frozen, iâm not sure that a 5000 stands and nurses fee is all that overwhlming for a Giacomo. Adena has several under 5000 as well and their stallions pull in a lot of cozzene and sadlers wells, lines which do have sport horse backing. All fwiw
[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;5964753]
Gem Twist, The Natural, For the Moment, I could go on and on. These horses could win in todayâs jumper ring.
Someone said that the biggest issue is that we quit breeding TBs for sport. I have to agree. It is pretty depressing that the list of TB stallions I would actually breed to is a list of only 4 or 5 and the list of WB stallions I would breed to is 5 times that.[/QUOTE]
The Natural was Hanoverian.
Most of the big name showjumpers were OTTBs and not bred for showjumping. Gem Twist was a noteable exception. Except for some hunter sires there probably never was a great number of TB sport stallions to choose from.
The IDHS(NA) has 2 registries, one for âpureâ IDâs and one for IDSHâs. If and when they are approved they get an âRâ. It seems to be a reasonable system, keep the traditional RIDâs and use them to breed RIDSHâs. Once the traditional base is dilluted itâs hard to recover.
I think we have some nice traditional stallions
http://irishdraught.com/horses/roster.php?sunid=17
I think there probably were more sport TB stallions that weâve ever known about. They just didnât breed many mares, so got lost in the OTTB shuffle.
Iâm recalling the South Carolina teacher who had a couple of generations of Blue Murmur line stallions; and Mrs. Gosch in Georgia; and there were probably many others like them who have given up relatively recently. At least one of Mrs. Goschâs is breeding; and Maggie Sjoberg (sp) in Georgia has a TB or two that she stands.
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