The Natural was Hanoverian.
Holy carp! All these years, I thought he was TB.
Itās really a shame that the Bonne Nuit line is just about gone
But how many horses are being tried by really good trainers/riders? One can have the best horse in the world and never find out about it. As long as a horse is not really given a good chance, people will never find out where itās limits are.
People in Europe are also endlesly pondering what makes a good horse: http://www.bokt.nl/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1564427&start=200 Nobody seems to know for sure and so much also depends on the people working with the horseā¦
I think Elleās has a great point. More than breeding tbs for sport, other than eventing what weāve really lost is riding/training tbs for sport.
Idle Dice, Jet Run, Number One Spy, Gem Twist, Touch of Class - most of the riders and trainers today wouldnāt give those horses the shot today. IMO we were at our best when our riders and trainers worked with a lot of blood. Calypso was 1/2 tb and Abdullah was tk. You used to be able to see such a difference in the American v German style, but not so much now.
[QUOTE=Elles;5965324]
But how many horses are being tried by really good trainers/riders? One can have the best horse in the world and never find out about it. As long as a horse is not really given a good chance, people will never find out where itās limits are.
People in Europe are also endlesly pondering what makes a good horse: http://www.bokt.nl/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1564427&start=200 Nobody seems to know for sure and so much also depends on the people working with the horseā¦[/QUOTE]
Excellent point. I think the riders could ride them with no problems but most jumper riders are not looking at OTTBs for jumper prospects anymore. It IS actually cheaper and easier to deal with prospects that are ready to start showing from the get go.
Iām one of the biggest proponents of Americans using TB blood for sport breeding, and agree that there is a lot of talent out there that never makes it to the top for lack of opportunity. That has always been the case and will always be the case.
Well if thereās nothing to lose then prove it. Get them out there. Donāt blame riders. Most proās can ride what comes their way. But they have to make a living so you need owners to buy and pay for training.
And as a side note some of the reasons horseās like AFR and CG get mentioned over and over on these threads is because their owners have worked hard to make it work. Yes quality stallions but good people behind them.
Terri
What about Gemini Twist?
Here is some background on Gem Twist: http://www.chadofarms.com/Gemtwist/Gemtwist_page.htm
Looks like Sea The Stars wonāt be my dream horse for adding blood anytime soon! LOL!
First foals through the ring this week with an 850k colt and 800k filly!
Terri
Coconut Grove comes out of some really interesting blood lines for sport horse breeding and myself would not hesitate a second in using him for any kind of breeding that includes jumping over a fence.
Roven also comes with excellent blood lines and his offspring are been seen out in the European Cross Country courses showing great jump, stamina and courage. There were at least one offspring competing in the world championships in Lion dāAngers a couple of weeks ago.
Another stallion - even though not a pure bred thorough bred - having great success as a breeding stallion in eventing with his first generations of off spring is former Show jumper Olympian Jaguar Mail by. US-born stallion Hand in Glove TB out of a Laudanum TB mare.
Also itās kind of sad and boring to read comments regarding the TB.s and that they should be worth nothing and bring nothing in to the modern sport horse breeding.
If you seriously have fallen for that myth you obviously have no clue what really built the modern sport horse of today and should go home and study your studbooks!
[QUOTE=equestrianism;5965702]
Coconut Grove comes out of some really interesting blood lines for sport horse breeding and myself would not hesitate a second in using him for any kind of breeding that includes jumping over a fence.
Roven also comes with excellent blood lines and his offspring are been seen out in the European Cross Country courses showing great jump, stamina and courage. There were at least one offspring competing in the world championships in Lion dāAngers a couple of weeks ago.
Another stallion - even though not a pure bred thorough bred - having great success as a breeding stallion in eventing with his first generations of off spring is former Show jumper Olympian Jaguar Mail by. US-born stallion Hand in Glove TB out of a Laudanum TB mare.
Also itās kind of sad and boring to read comments regarding the TB.s and that they should be worth nothing and bring nothing in to the modern sport horse breeding.
If you seriously have fallen for that myth you obviously have no clue what really built the modern sport horse of today and should go home and study your studbooks![/QUOTE]
You are missing the point. We are fully aware that the TB stallion has helped to create the European warmblood of today. You have done it over generations and still need them today , albeit way less , as the European warmblood has become a beautiful hybrid that needs far less blood than the warmblood mare of yesterday.
There is a minimal amount of generational breeding with Tbās in this country. There are not enough TB mare families producing enough children to garner any information whatsoever. The breeders of TBās here are stuck in the past and have nothing left but sentimental reflections of yesterday.
The TBās lost their eventing stronghold. The Tbās have lost their hunter stronghold. The Tbās have lost their showhjumping strongholds and never really were competitive in dressage. As I stated aboveā¦their only real value left in sporthorse breeding today is in the breeding shed for the production of the generationally bred warmblood.
One needs only to look at show results to know exactly what their contributions areā¦ or not.
Bayhawk, if you think TBs have lost their eventing stronghold, youāve been smoking something. There are just as many full TBs and F1 TB crosses at the highest levels as there ever have been. Take a look at this Hanoverian pedigree of Andreas Dibowskiās new UL horse, and donāt stop at just five generations:
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=384350&maxniveau=6
Itās even an FRH, which means itās supported by the Hanoverian Verband.
Until the FEI shortens XC courses so much that stamina and endurance are no longer part of the sport at all, TBs and AAs have a stranglehold on what horses are appropriate. UL riders in the UK are standing TB stallions, and William Fox-Pitt, the greatest living event rider, still has a stable full of OTTBs. Not exclusively, but many, many of his rides.
If the FEI would bin the dressage coefficient, there would be even less need for dressagey horses.
I wonāt say they have lost their stronghold, but they are definitely slipping. The last Olympics, won by a Holsteiner(Marius). Last years European Young Horse champion Holsteiner (Mighty Magic), and 3 of the 4 top YEH champions on the West Coast were Holsteiners, the 3rd Position was held by a Trak. I also donāt have to mention Lady Calido and Samurai.
However, yes, they are still dominated by TBās. Maybe this is the venue to select breeding stock from and someone can start putting their money where their mouths are. There are plenty of cheap TB stallions to breed to. Many are even doing discounts for sport horse production. No excuses people, if you think you can do it, then by all means go ahead. No one is stopping you.
Tim
P.S. I would add, they are great for production of WB breeding stock. 
As someone who has had the unique opportunity to see quite a number of foals - North American wide - over the last couple of decades, one who truly stands out in my memory was sired by Coconut Grove (who I also had the immense pleasure to meet in person and IMHO was a lovely horse conformation wise with quite good movement even considering his advanced age ā¦ and if you watched videos of him jumping with his less-than-qualified rider, wondered what he could have done under a better one). The dam was a Jus de Pomme daughter (and not one of Allynās foals ā¦ much as I would love to see them to compare).
When you see many foals, you immediately know when something special comes into the ring/arena. This one was very special. Very nicely put together, ālook of eagles,ā nice mover, super presence.
He was purchased by an Olympic rider as a foal or yearling (canāt remember). I think he is 5 now and understand he is beginning to make his jumping debut. If his name has not changed, I truly look forward to watching this one as he should be the real deal.
Just thought Iād add that to the conversation.
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5965860]
I wonāt say they have lost their stronghold, but they are definitely slipping. [/QUOTE]
To add to your selective āevidenceā:
Parklane Hawk, an NZ OTTB, won Burghley 2011.
Kingās Temptress, a mostly-TB mare by the TB stallion Primitive Rising, won Rolex 2011.
Cool Mountain, another one by Primitive Rising, won Rolex 2010. He is 7/8ths TB and reportedly 1/8th Hackney.
Butts Leon, a 15/16ths TB by Heraldik xx, won Luhmuhlen CCI**** 2011.
While Parklane Hawk was bred for the track, the other three I listed are purpose-bred eventers, bred by experienced breeders with top-level eventing in mind. The high percentage of TB blood is part of the plan.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;5965812]
Bayhawk, if you think TBs have lost their eventing stronghold, youāve been smoking something. There are just as many full TBs and F1 TB crosses at the highest levels as there ever have been. Take a look at this Hanoverian pedigree of Andreas Dibowskiās new UL horse, and donāt stop at just five generations:
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=384350&maxniveau=6
Itās even an FRH, which means itās supported by the Hanoverian Verband.
Until the FEI shortens XC courses so much that stamina and endurance are no longer part of the sport at all, TBs and AAs have a stranglehold on what horses are appropriate. UL riders in the UK are standing TB stallions, and William Fox-Pitt, the greatest living event rider, still has a stable full of OTTBs. Not exclusively, but many, many of his rides.
If the FEI would bin the dressage coefficient, there would be even less need for dressagey horses.[/QUOTE]
Who won the last Olympic gold ? Not a TBā¦therefore , part of their stronghold was lost.
The only people smoking something are those that still think they can make horses for the top of the sport by breeding with Tbās. Rankings tell us soā¦
[QUOTE=vineyridge;5965812]
and William Fox-Pitt, the greatest living event rider, still has a stable full of OTTBs. Not exclusively, but many, many of his rides.[/QUOTE]
And one of his most famous mounts, Tamarillo, is an Anglo-Arabian! =D
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5965963]
Who won the last Olympic gold ? Not a TBā¦therefore , part of their stronghold was lost.
The only people smoking something are those that still think they can make horses for the top of the sport by breeding with Tbās. Rankings tell us soā¦[/QUOTE]
Marius - XX/OX rate : 75.79%
[QUOTE=Snaffle81;5965994]
Marius - XX/OX rate : 75.79%[/QUOTE]
Marius is a Holsteiner from a Holsteiner mother. He is not a TB.
No, he may not be full Thoroughbred, but Snaffle81 is saying that he has quite a bit of Thoroughbred influence, being that he was sired by a Thoroughbred as well as having other Thoroughbred influence down the line.
Well, a Holsteiner didnāt win the last Olympic gold or the last WEG gold in showjumping, so by that logic Holsteiners must be losing their foothold too, huh. :lol:
Thatās pretty funny when someone says that one shouldnāt be using TBs to breed for the top of the sport and then points to a horse that was by a TB.
