Beware [edit]

[anon6923113]

I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. I think it’s great to get perspective from another continent with a different predominant population of horses.

I’ve ridden plenty of warmbloods, as well as TBs and Arab crosses. And, a few QHs. They all have variation. Some of the warmbloods were more quiet and rideable than a memorable QH I had years ago.

I do think some people in the US have a distorted perception of warmbloods because of the lines that are more predominant here, and trends in horses that were imported here over the last few decades. Also… some of the stallions who were imported in the 80’s and early 90’s? Some were not necessarily Europe’s best, and had temperament challenges. And that too has influenced the US population of warmbloods, and negative perceptions.

Back to one of the starting topics of this thread… DHH. I wonder how different the population of DHH in the Netherlands is from the growing population of DHH here in the US. Just idle curiosity. But… it seems like there is a considerable amount of unselective breeding of DHH happening in the US now, and horses getting dumped at auctions. I wonder if breeding is more selective in the Netherlands?

[thereadinghorse]

Tbh (I live far away from the border to NL) I barely know of the existance of DHH. I even had to google which breed it is (Tuigpaard). I would have to ask people from NL about DHHs, because apart from in the NL I don’t know if there even exist DHHs elsewhere in Europe (of course, there might be exceptions, but this is a very local NL breed).

[Arzny]

I’m talking about height, not breeding

[anon6923113]

Very interesting that it’s so local in Europe, but becoming a fad across the US.

[thereadinghorse]

I would assume by the comment oversized, that this particular pony is above 148cm, so not in the height range for ponys anymore.

Googled it: He’s 15.1h which is roughly 154cm, so he’s bigger than the offical pony height.

[DownYonder]

@Arzny

Anna is quite short - iirc Censational might actually be a pony.

@thereadinghorse

Yes, it is a pony. FS Don’t Worry is a GRP stud And Caramel FH, too.

FS is the prefix for Ferienhof Stücker, a very big GRP breeder and FH is the suffix for Freibeger Hof which also breeds GRPs

Yes - pony bred and probably pony-registered. Astrid described it as “oversized.” so I assume it was over 14.2h (which would preclude it from getting a “pony card” in the hunter divisions). I believe GRPs can be slightly over that, almost 14.3h - correct?

I’d love to know how tall it actually is, but it doesn’t really matter - I think it is wonderful to see the “littles” out there in the upper levels. We used to see a couple of Dutch RPs at dressage shows in this area - owned and ridden mostly by their very petite female rider, although her husband later started showing one of them. IIRC, one or both of those ponies went to at least PSG. Ponies have become more common at the shows over the years, although in most cases, they are ridden by kids.

Ah, I now see that @thereadinghorse confirmed my thoughts about the “pony” in question!

[fordtraktor]

The DHH is the Amish puppy mill horse right now. I see dozens of them around because I live a mile or two from a heavily Amish area. They used to mostly breed Standardbreds, but now are switching to DHH so they can sell them as “KWPN dressage prospects” for more $$$ (but a lot less than an actual dressage-bred WB).

I don’t blame them, and they can be cute lower level horses, but many struggle to canter and are not built to collect at all.

I think OP has plenty of competition already as these horses are everywhere in my area.

[DownYonder]

@fordtraktor

…they [DHH] can be cute lower level horses, but many struggle to canter and are not built to collect at all.

Well maybe they can’t canter or collect but dang, that doesn’t mean they aren’t suitable for producing offspring that CAN do those things.

And yes, I am being sarcastic!

[beowulf]

@thereadinghorse

I’m not sure, if this is a good idea, but I’ll post a link to a video of my mare
https://www.instagram.com/p/C3LkN4HNjUx/
That’s us. I don’t think she would be difficult for any ammy to ride. I would say she’s kinda easy. And I know a lot of WBs easier than her.

Your mare looks lovely and a blast to ride.

Please don’t take this as disparaging, as it is intended to be the opposite - this mare looks like the nice TBs and blooded WBs we have here; we have lots of horses like this in the US. If someone showed me this video, other than the jumps, I would have assumed it was taken in the indoor of one of our local event facilities.

[exvet]

You speak to the fate of the average riding horse. What do the commercial breeders do with mares who do not produce? what about those who fail in the breeding shed and fail to become riding horses? What do the commercial breeders do with youngstock with medical issues (congenital)?

When I was involved heavily in breeding and keeping track of what was going on across the pond, there was a more systematic approach it seemed based on my colleagues accounts to the selection of those who made it into the breeding shed so-to-speak and not just breeding a horse of a specific color to another of a specific color just to sell something that appealed to the masses based on the resulting color which happens in the US all to frequently. So culling can occur from two directions - those who are selected to be bred vs. those who are not and then those removed from the breeding herd based on specific criteria. It seems that in certain other countries the method of selection for the purpose of breeding is more systematic, based on objective criteria then what we see here.

[thereadinghorse]

Thanks She’s often mistaken for a TB or blooded WB. But she’s not even close to being blooded. She has a particular old, unmodern hannoverian pedigree with really old lines.

[thereadinghorse]

I don’t know which breeders you know, but those I know are quite small and care for their horses. So my pov might be different.

Horses not used for breeding will be used for riding. Most times. Unridden broodmares isn’t that common. Most mare will be ridden at least for a short period of time, before they go into the breeding barn, so if they prove unworthy of breeding, they will be sold as lightly ridden. Giving them away for meat is unlucrative, as you won’t get much money. Selling them as riding horses is much more profitable. My own mare is such a horse. She’d been a broodie and after not getting pregnant anymore she was sold (to me).

[Warmblood1]

What’s her breeding? Just curious.

[thereadinghorse]

That’s her: https://www.horsetelex.de/horses/pedigree/1749421/contendra-i

[fordtraktor]

Contender/Argentan is a classic “Nick” for jumpers. Nice mare.

[thereadinghorse]

She does a good job with me. I did begin her myself as she was actually not ridden before. She had two foals in her career as broodie, then went empty 5 years and after that her breeder finally chose to sell her. She was bred to a Welsh B, because she’s so small (157cm, although horsetelex states 158cm). Two full brothers, of which one of them is a FEI dressage pony. So she herself is more of a jumper/eventer type, but she produces nice dressage ponys if paired with the right stud. She is genetically a double purpose horse.

[anon6923113]

Thank you for you and @DownYonder speaking up.

It sure seems like there is a “puppy mill” type dynamic going on with the sudden increase in an obscure breed here in the US, along with this group of people who keep on insisting that these horses … who are purpose bred harness horses… are desirable for dressage, hunters, and eventing.

I see nothing at all wrong with enjoying breeds other than warmbloods, especially for certain attributes. I myself have a soft spot for Arab crosses… they can be nice for short amateurs like myself But… it seems like the people extolling the virtues of the DHH are supporting this trend of comparing them to warmbloods, and I am sorry… but they are not as suitable for sport as a warmblood. Also… the Amish really aren’t breeding selectively. Look at the number of DHH and DHH crosses getting dumped at auctions. Look at the ADHHA studbook - over 900 foals by Dondersteen! That’s a puppy mill situation. You will not find a top tier US Warmblood stallion, who WAS bred selectively, who has anywhere remotely close to that number of get on the ground. Many nice, inspected, licensed Warmblood stallions … with great competition records… only breed 10 mares (give or take a few) in a given season.

I don’t know. I just find this recurrent thinking among some people that MORE DHH crosses need to be bred for riding sport… well… it’s some strange sort of logic.

[Warmblood1]

How long has Dondersteen been standing at stud?

[anon6923113]

He was born in 2008. Looks like there was a transfer of ownership in August of 2012. The ADHHA database shows first (registered) foals were born in Spring of 2012. And he has foals registered in ADHHA that were born in 2023. Soooo… 944 registered foals over the course of approximately 10 years.

Some food for thought. Quidam De Revel, considered one of the greatest jumper stallions of all time, who produced 165 recorded offspring who competed at the 1.60 m + level, and who stood at stud from 1987 up until very recently (maybe his frozen is still available and viable? I’m not sure) thanks to artificial insemination…

He has just over 3600 recorded offspring in Horsetelex. Soooo… that’s a bit over 30 years of breeding, internationally used by breeders of jumpers, and most of his offspring were a result of artificial insemination. So just over one hundred offspring per year on average. Compare that to Dondersteen who stood locally in the Midwest, was used for harness breeding and used with a wide range of mares, bred mostly by live cover. Looks like he averaged around 90 foals per year.

[Salty]

That’s a wonderful way to welcome in the New Year! Could also do a Spring Into Spring for the equinox.