Beware [edit]

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

My plan for registration will somewhat depend on the breed of mare I end up with - for DHH or TB mare I will have to go with the IAHLA half-bred registry. ASB has a half-bred registry as well.

Honestly I think the first one or two foals produced will be keepers as my next prospects. If I end up wanting to breed the mare with sale of the baby will depend on which stallion I end up choosing based on what she throws for me. I may get her approved for KWPN and choose a warmblood stallion known for temperament and soundness and sell the foals younger. If it’s a cross bred the plan will likely be to at least start them under saddle and potentially keep them until they have a solid training/1st level foundation in place. Either way the babies produced will get age-appropriate education to make them solid citizens.

I’m a bit confused.

Can you explain again what is the thought process/plan? From what I am reading, it seems to be to produce dressage horses for the amateur market, because in your opinion what is currently available from North American breeders of dressage prospects is generally:

• too hot/sensitive
• has extravagant movement that is hard for an average ammy rider to sit
• too big
• too expensive

So you think breeding crosses using DHH, ASB, or TB mares with… PRE or Lusitano stallions… might create a horse that is a better dressage mount for amateurs?

And you plan on both breeding and starting these babies under saddle, and getting them showing experience through training or first level? Then selling them?

Are you a pro rider yourself, or a longtime competitor at the upper levels? That’s a key puzzle piece. For amateurs with a healthy budget to take a risk on buying an unusual cross, there probably needs to be something enticing about it… if it was started and had initial show miles put on it by a good rider with upper level show experience on their resume, that would add something appealing, I think.

With that said, I have seen a few DHH for sale recently who have been produced REALLY nicely by top notch riders, and gotten going at shows… and they aren’t selling. One was clearly really hot… and even though it’s talented and nice… it’s just not selling. The other one was 17.2, with a huge head. It seemed quiet and was a nice horse… but just huge, and unappealing to many buyers for that reason. There just seems to be a lot of variability in terms of the DHHs on the market… and though some are nice, others are not necessarily really marketable to a number of ammy buyers, unless they are priced pretty low.

[Montanas_Girl]

OP, as I’ve said in my previous post, I am fully supportive of breeding for the amateur/youth market, and that’s that I do. It does feel like, though, that you still have a lot of work to do in defining exactly what breed and type of horse you are wanting to produce.

I breed Arabian and Half Arabian working western horses. I don’t want or need to breed “world beaters” - i.e. NRHA/NCHA/NRCHA top level horses - and it would be unrealistic to expect a non-QH to excel at that level, anyway. But my horses are very capable of being nationally competitive in AHA shows, and locally competitive at our very large ARHA (American Ranch Horse Association) affiliate shows in my area. That’s what I mean when I talk about horses that aren’t world beaters.

One of the major keys in why I’ve been able to develop a bit of an audience/market for my foals is that I personally ride my mares. I regularly post videos of myself and my trainer riding them, honestly portraying their strengths and weaknesses. I also share evidence of their good natures on the ground and how much fun they are to be around on a daily basis. In other words, I am specifically marketing these mares, and both I and their audience know them very, very well at this point.

Maybe you could have a bit of a brainstorming session to better nail down exactly what type of horse you are looking to produce? Right now you’re a bit all over the map - maybe ASB crosses, maybe DHH crosses, maybe Iberian crosses…Think about what draws you to a horse. What do you like to ride? Start there and work your way out.

Just my two cents. Take it or leave it, but I hope it was at least a little helpful.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

While I appreciate your perspective, this is all hypothetical, as stated in my OP. I don’t have ANY mare, don’t have my farm purchased or appropriately set up. This IS the brainstorming session. I’m thinking through what I want.

Honestly, this is less about what I’M going to do and more about the market in general and what is being produced currently. What available in 5 years (the likely timeframe of actually making hard breeding choices) might be totally different.

I only started sharing my thoughts on what I’d like to do currently because people were asking. But that’s not really what this post is about.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

As I mentioned in my above comment, it’s not a plan. I never said it was a plan. I shared what I’m currently thinking because people asked. I shared what I like - sound mind and body, my favorite horse in the whole world was a draft cross, loved Georgian grandes and Iberian horses and currently have a DHH. I’ve also stated REPEATEDLY that I am not looking to have a breeding business. At most it would be a hobby with 1-2 mares bred every other year. I also DON’T currently have any mares. Not one!

So everyone can get off their huffy bikes and relax - I’m not producing 50 foals a year with no plan.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Oh.

Ok.

[Montanas_Girl]

I guess I’m a little confused, then.

If the question is, “Is there a market for purpose-bred amateur mounts?”, then the answer is a conditional yes. The animals still need to be correct, sound, and athletic.

Breeding is a passion project, whether you’re doing it as a business or a hobby. It’s important to have a vision, even for a hobby breeding program. Your odds of success increase with the predictability of the genetics involved. For example, my highly linebred foundation broodmare is like a little copy machine - there’s almost no suspense about what she’ll produce, for better or worse. Conversely, when you cross very different breeds and types, the likelihood of both parents sharing the same genes/traits is much lower, making the results unpredictable. Whether that’s a gamble you want to take depends on your own personal risk tolerance level.

[Warmblood1]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

So everyone can get off their huffy bikes and relax - I’m not producing 50 foals a year with no plan.

It doesn’t take 50 foals a year to make a negligent breeder - it takes 1 foal.

And FWIW, I did not think anyone was “huffy” until I read your replies. I’m sure you will think that I, too, am a huff and puff. No, just someone that enjoys discussions about breeding. They are important conversations to have - theoretical or not.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

As I mentioned before, I haven’t produced 1 foal, much less 50. I have no immediate plans to breed, nor even purchased the mare to be bred.

This is where I get frustrated. Instead of have the, in your words, important conversations about breeding in generalities, people focus on off-hand comments about the broad strokes of what I like. To me, hyper focusing on details that are of no consequence is not contributing to these conversations. As many before in this thread, please, share your experiences with what has been successful for you. I greatly appreciate those comments. But that’s not what happened in these last few comments. How can we have these important conversations if it devolves into people judging another’s non-existent breeding program?

So the judgmental comments about my lack of a plan and the indignant “confusion” over my comments are not warranted.

ETA: Question - did you read all the posts in this thread? Because I had been having wonderful, productive conversations until very recently. You chose to focus on ONE of my responses where I did not feel the need to clarify for others who were definitely huffy.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

So the judgmental comments about my lack of a plan and the indignant “confusion” over my comments are not warranted.

There was nothing “indignant” and there was no judgement.

Your posts were sincerely a bit confusing to me. You seemed to be describing a hypothetical breeding program, which eventually involves producing 2 foals per year and selling them to the amateur market, but you also say you want to be a hobby breeder.

Perhaps we just have a different definition of hobby breeding.

.

[Scribbler]

In imagining a dressage breeding program, it’s important to keep in mind that the current competition standards favor a WB type. This is also true of hunters (though a different style of warmblood).

In dressage, the other alternate type is Iberian. In hunter/jumpers the alternate type is TB.

Because action and big gaits are valued in modern dressage even at the lower levels, there is a temptation to max out movement by going in the direction of harness horses like DHH or even Hackneys. But if you go to that extreme to get the big trot you may lose the equally important ability to collect and do lateral movements. If you could win dressage just on the trot every OTSB I know would be a star, but canter and collection are a huge challenge. This is also true for Friesians and ASB.

Iberians come with collection, piaffe, and lateral movements practically factory installed, but need work to stretch and open the trot to meet today’s gait expectations in dressage.

A top quality WB is bred to ideally have both big gaits and the ability to collect, with enough heart to produce engagement and forward. A meh WB still has these qualities more than most other breeds because modern dressage criteria are designed with WB in mind. Just like modern hunters is designed with WB in mind.

That’s why most people wanting to compete in dressage or hunters look for a WB if they can afford it and have goals.

I say all this not being a huge WB fan. They just don’t speak to me, I like Iberians. But if you want to breed sport horses, some kind of line of WB is going to be the coherent choice. With Iberians a second choice.

There are people who want a dressage horse, and then there are people who want an all around horse, maybe multiple discipline or a horse that can do trails and camping and also dressage.

For these people, the other uses will help determine what kind of horse. I feel like if you want to breed good using horses with dressage possibilities, you should stick to a recognized breed like Morgan or Iberian or maybe Welsh. Or to recognized crosses like Iberian xTB or Iberian x WB. Or QH x Arab.

I don’t think the average backyard breeder should be trying to reinvent the WB by mixing harness horses and TB. Yes, that’s the foundation of the modern WB, but it took decades of breeding and culling to arrive at a type.

Also draft xTB can come out looking like anything. I’ve seen examples of a local Percheron x TB breeding program and they range from looking like a plow horse to a heavy hunter to a Lusitano to an AngloArab to a Welsh cob. Totally unpredictable. Just because you had one you loved doesn’t mean you can recreate him reliably.

I have only seen one Georgian Grande and he had so much Friesian blood that although he was huge, 18 hands, when you look at him head on he was so narrow that he almost disappeared. He was in a dressage program. He was very unbalanced IIRC.

[Montanas_Girl]

There was no indignation in my reply, nor judgement. My confusion is sincere because of the inconsistency in some of your posts, which are clouding the subject a bit.

There is definitely a need for the breeding of sound, sensible, quality animals that can be produced in a more affordable manner than the typical warmblood. Affordability comes more from management choices than breed, in my opinion. My average cost per horse to maintain is much, much lower than the numbers often quoted on this board; that isn’t a lucky accident. Breeding specific vet bills are a lot less predictable and involve a lot more luck, unfortunately.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

I think they key word here is “eventually” and yes, my goal would be to produce for the amateur market. But you have very skillfully skipped over the parts where I talk about wanting to produce a quality sporthorse at an affordable price, with main goals being sound in mind and body, nature vs nurture, genetics, husbandry, training. What the breed(s) I choose to do this with really isn’t at issue. They ONLY came up when I shared what I’ve liked as an amateur owner in the past.

Now I’m confused as to what you were expecting me to share? And you’re also saying that you feel someone producing 1-2 foals every OTHER year (you also seemed to have missed where I said I don’t like breeding mares every year) - THAT you consider a business and not a hobby? You ALSO missed where I said I will be happy to keep them as long a necessary. If that means I find them the perfect owner as a foal, great. If I keep them for 3-5 years and start them, get them out showing/clinics/etc, also great. I’m not doing this to make my income. That is how I define a hobby breeder.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I’m sorry. I read the whole thread in various parts while doing different stuff yesterday, and honestly didn’t retain all the key details. It’s not a matter of being skillful - just a matter of reading casually in bits and pieces, and then engaging in discussion.

[Ghazzu]

@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

I talk about wanting to produce a quality sporthorse at an affordable price, with main goals being sound in mind and body, nature vs nurture, genetics, husbandry, training.

What the breed(s) I choose to do this with really isn’t at issue.

I would argue that those two statements are pretty contradictory.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

I’m definitely not breeding for trot, I understand how important walk and canter is for a dressage prospect. Some DHH actually have phenomenal canters - my current gelding being one of them. Same for ASBs. If I had said I was planning on breeding a KWPN mare to an Iberian stallion, I wonder if I would have gotten the backlash? Because that may end up being the case. But ASBs are accepted into the KWPN, just like TBs. What TB qualities make them a more suitable choice as an outcross to an Iberian? I think MANY people breed TB mares because they are usually cheap and easy to find. Not the criteria I am using to find my breeding stock. The IALHA has a half-bred aspect to the registry with no stipulation on what that other half is. So I’m not sure what “recognized crosses” refers to.

On the point of the Georgian Grande - I prefer the programs using draft blood vs Friesian blood. There are programs that produce reliably good sport horses. Judging an entire “breed” (I use the term loosely, although I do believe there is a registry) on one individual you’ve personally met is the same as what you said I did with my draft cross that I loved. The narrow build was likely more to do with ASB blood than the Friesian too, IMO. Most Friesians add bone and width, not take it away. I do find Friesians and Friesian crosses (I’ve seen many - ASB, Standardbred, DHH, Morgan, Arab) to be fairly naturally unbalanced, especially when they are young. Maybe hypermobility to achieve the extreme action and neck carriage? But that is pure speculation on my part.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

You can argue that, but I’m not sure I would agree. If, at the end of all this, I stated I wanted to purpose breed QHs (registered full QH or maybe Appendix) for dressage, would the response have been the same? Because, in my opinion, it should be. Pretty much everyone agrees that producing a foal costs about the same independent of breed - more on geographical location, ability to do your own vet care (to some extent or the other), size and setup of property, etc. So who cares (in the context of this thread) what I am actually breeding? And again, this is HYPOTHETICAL.

[exvet]

LOL well being one who always has their flame suit fully zipped, WELCOME and look at threads on this board of a similar vein from 20+ years ago. Not much has changed though some of the recognized crosses weren’t so recognized There are plenty of us (choose a breed) who choose a breed first (or cross) and then wish to find those individuals/lines within that breed who can carry us up the levels in dressage. Usually, or at least most of us, try to select those, through much research, individuals of said breed who are conformed well (for sport) and demonstrate a talent for canter (or again for those of us drawn to carriage types or all rounders) and prefer to canter. Then of course demonstrated ‘heart and disposition, call it rideability/trainability’ or what you will, is also sought. Next comes demonstrating that your program can produce which often means training and showing those who represent your goal be it one you actually bred or one you hope to breed. This is the passion that the program is typically built on for those of us who wish to color outside of the lines.

I’m pretty sure I’ve shared on this board the time I was showing 3 Welsh Cobs at a show where I was riding 2nd, 3rd and 4th level. My scores were in the mid to high 60s on each one at each level. I rode down center line in one of my last couple of tests, finished and saluted and the judge asked, “You’re such an accomplished rider why is it that you don’t ride a ‘real’ dressage horse? You could do so well.” I explained very clearly and succinctly that I ride what I love and love what I ride. Simply put, my passion wouldn’t be there (and thus I wouldn’t be as ‘accomplished’) if I got up every morning and rode what others professed was more appropriate, been there done that. I just shook my head as I rode out of the arena. I mean, this individual who posed the question gave me decent scores. Her own students struggled at least as much or more with their ‘more suitable’ mounts at other shows where I had competed. And she was asking me in front of God and country (there was quite the peanut gallery at the judge’s end of the arena) such a question. I had known that judge for quite some time and in her own way she really was trying to ‘help’ me. Some just can’t understand or fathom those who are owned by a breed or cross or type. They only know what’s ‘contemporarily’ accepted as the ‘right way’, the ‘easier’ way, the tried and true path to success

You are right. For the purpose of your discussion which breeds don’t really matter. It’s the principles of breeding that matter and really understanding it all both on paper and in the flesh. It’s your money to do with what you wish and as long as what you propose has a reasonable chance of obtaining your goal it should be successful (after all you deem what success is for yourself). It doesn’t sound like you’re just wanting to breed ‘x’ mare because she has a uterus or ‘Y’ stallion because he’s flashy and has a pretty color and Fabio’s head of hair If what you select and breed (so the get) put a smile on your face very single day, makes you proud to own it and reproduce it AND you’re hitting scores in the 60s without fear of life I think you have every right to breed it. Your sales will determine if you’re meeting the needs or interests of your market.

[Scribbler]

All the Friesians I have seen are narrow for their height as befits a harness horse. We have a local Dutch, real Dutch not Amish Deutsch population here and several Friesian breeders. My first coach as a returning rider relocated to a Friesian & dairy farm for a couple of seasons when she was between facilities. I’ve seen a number of Friesians.

That farmer turned up a couple of years later driving four in hand in a demo of Friesian harness horses at a local equine expo. Half a dozen rigs with 1 or 2 horses and then the 4 horse carriage riding patterns at a road trot. As harness horses, spectacular. As riding horses base narrow and not my cup of tea. I don’t really like Friesians under saddle.

As far as ASB in breeding, I have learned way more than I ever needed to know about KWPN and DHH, which is both a standalone North American registry as well as a non official term for harness focused horses in the KWPN. This is from the current trainwreck thread about Kate Shearer breeding crap DHH mares for jumping. Despite using Big Name Stud frozen semen her foals turned out very harness type, flat croups, pogo canter unnaturally high heads. Don’t do that for dressage, please.

Anyhow, I don’t know about the North American DHH registry which is a lower prestige registry. But the KWPN only licensed a few ASB stallions some years ago for harness lines, and then abandoned the experiment. So it is not true that ASB is accepted into KWPN.

I don’t know what North American DHH accepts.

But I also think you will do better breeding horses for dressage out of dressage lines and registered with a real WB registry. If the foal is registered KWPN it’s much more marketable than if it’s DHH.

I also think you would do best as a novice breeder choosing a breed that you click with, that has the mental qualities that you want, and that has the ability to do dressage to some degree. There are lots of quiet minded WB, and WB with less extreme gaits. If you could figure out what lines those are, you could have an attractive niche.

If you like Iberians and get along with their super busy minds, you could breed Iberians or a known Iberian cross. I know a breeder way up in the remote back country that produces really nice Andalusian x WB that are great ammie horses. But she’s been breeding for 40 years and knows what she’s doing.

The big variable costs in breeding are vet bills including AI if you go that route, and care costs. If you are in the back of beyond on rangeland, especially if you have no mortgage on the ranch, and if you have your own stallion and pasture breed and foal out at home, and grow your own hay, your maintenance costs plummet and your foals are almost free. And growing up on open range is the best for early development.

I know there are a number of sport horse breeders in Canada that are located in the back of nowhere for this reason.

If you want to hobby breed within reach of your urban metro job that is paying the bills, however, then you likely can’t own a stallion and will need to be paying much more to keep mare, foal, young horse either in board or mortgage on your acreage or leasing land.

Anyhow there is certainly a market for rideable and affordable ammie horses, but I would suggest starting with a breed and understanding that breed standard very well, including the types within that breed (for instance types in QH, Morgan, KWPN, Welsh, Arabs, Haflinger, etc). Then understanding the lines within the type you want, pros and cons. Off the top of my head, Foundation Hancock QH can be gorgeous athletic animals (blue roan!) but are said to have an ornery streak. And within the major WB registries there are jumping and dressage lines. And TB vary in confirmation and also in mind.

Iberians also have some significant differences in build and temper.

So you can work within many breeds to find the lines that are best suited to dressage conformationally and have good minds (for their breed; every Andie will be busier and more forward than virtually every QH for instance). I’d suggest doing that breed research first, casting as wide a net as possible then going into the lines in your chosen breed. And going to breed shows where you can. The in hand stallion mare foal young stock classes are super interesting if you are interested in a breed. You see a lot of variation in conformation and movement even within one breed independent of trained performance. You don’t get to see much conformation watching jumpers and even in dressage, the horse has been taught to carry itself in an optimum way so you don’t always get a clear picture of what it looks like standing still. But obviously the performance record on that line also matters. Understanding how conformation and performance are related in your breed of choice is important.

I would suggest starting with a specific breed, choosing the right lines for your purposes and producing registered foals. Unfortunately, if you sell them young you won’t have a great sense of what they turn into because that’s dependent on the buyers skills and goals. I’ve seen enough quality WB flat line or get chronic strain issue with backyard dressage trainers and never get past Training level. But if you breed two foals and keep them 5 years to start, unless you are on the old family homestead in Manitoba or Saskatchewan where the horses run free, that’s a huge hit in boarding costs and you likely aren’t going to want to keep breeding until you sell the first crop.

It is very very easy to end up with a field full of young stock, no time to handle school let alone break them, and no cash for routine care or to send them out to be started. Then suddenly you are in financial trouble and trying to rehome unbroken 8 10 or 15 year old horses as projects. I’ve seen this happen a couple of times to people who had low marginal costs for each additional horse, and got themselves in over their heads with horses they didn’t have time for.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

I think you’re getting stuck on hating on DHHs based on a current event that is about ONE individual. Look into Brynne Varvel. She’s, on paper, doing the same thing as Kate Shearer (except for dressage) - breeding DHHs for non-harness, sporthorse prospects. But she is doing an amazing job of it and her horses are successful in her chosen sport. If Kate Shearer was breeding crap TB mares to big name WB stallions, would there be pitchforks and torches? Cause I see that happen ALL the time!!

You spent a lot of time typing out a lot of words that all talk about me and what I’m doing (or am not doing). But what you don’t share is what YOU do. What YOU found successful. Why YOU feel so strongly about the subject. Because inside ALL registries and bloodlines are individuals. And you are incorrect about KWPN not accepting ASBs. I could breed my ASB mare to a KWPN stallion and get the foal registered KWPN. Same as a TB mare.

To exvet’s point, what you like and your breeding goals are may be different than mine. What you can afford and what I can afford may be different. What you consider affordable and what I consider affordable may be different. You’re looking at this very myopically and not considering that what you would feel comfortable doing is different from the “right” thing to do.

[Scribbler]

I’m not a breeder. I’ve seen a few small breeder trainwrecks and I’m generally familiar with what people can source at the low end of nice horses. I’m also very aware of the costs of keeping horses in metro areas versus the back country. I like Iberians and a catty handy horse but am not currently riding an Iberian. I’ve seen enough ammies and backyard trainers fail with their big fancy WB projects so I totally get what you are saying about less is more for the ammie or even low level pro.

As far as what anyone can "afford. " If you are going into business hoping to make at least a modest profit, then the business plan for any given set up and region would look similar irregardless of how much play money or trust funds or investment income you have as a cushion.

I mean where I live, your good Timothy hay is going to be at least $750 a ton and you’ll need about 4 tons per adult horse per year. Vet expenses and buying semen are going to be roughly the same for everyone. If you move to the back of beyond and grow your own hay and pasture breed to your own stallion and leave them grazing all summer, your maintenance costs drop to very little per extra horse or foal.

Anyhow “you don’t know what I can afford” is a fair comment if we are talking about buying your own horse for your own hobby. In that case, if you can afford $50k or $150k for your horse without remortgaging the house, that’s fine, and not our concern.

But if you say you want to start a business, then the assumption is that it needs to make at least a small profit. You don’t start a business to subsidize other ammie riders who want a nice horse at less than it costs to make one. And in that case it doesn’t matter what kind of financial cushion you have. You need to have a business plan that makes sense for the region where you are setting up. And likely that business plan will look similar to other ones in your area.

If you just want to be a hobby breeder, and throw your own money into seeing what pops out, and then keeping the foal forever if it’s unsellable or conversely so nice you fall in love … then it’s not a business

So your first big choice is: am I going to run a business and expect to make at least a tiny profit and do all the business deductibles? Or am I just going to be a hobby breeder putting my own surplus cash into the fun of having a backyard colt?

That’s a really big decision that only you can answer, but if you don’t have a clear answer before you start you are courting bankruptcy:).

From your responses here, you are oscillating between the two possibilities. That’s ok at this stage, but you do need to eventually pick one or the other and stick with it.

“You don’t know what I can afford” is a reasonable reply if you are a wealthy hobby breeder that just wants a colt around the acreage. It’s not a reasonable reply if you are intending to be a business and set up a business plan. In that case other breeders do know what you can afford, which is: does the sales cost of your young stock cover the cost of creating that horse? The margins will always be slim, unless you get the feed and care costs down to minimal on a big family ranch. But if you sink say $10,000 into a yearling that sells for $5000, you will not be in business long