Beware [edit]

If you have unlimited cash and will keep the foals unless you have a great offer, you aren’t running a business and you won’t break even (that will take a lot of planning). And in that case you aren’t even really producing for a market.

If you want your dream foal or you want to play mix n match with unconventional crosses and ride the outcome, that’s entirely on you as a hobby. But in that case, don’t start a discussion about “the market” and “the business” because that’s a seperate thing from breeding your own hobby horses. If you ask about the business, don’t get upset when we give you advice about the market or the business or cautionary stories about small or backyard breeders that ended up with aged out prospects.

If you are wealthy and just want some experimental foals and can afford to keep them forever or give them away, then you don’t need to consider “the market” at all.

But a goal “to produce for the amateur market” suggests a business in the way “I want to breed unconventional crosses and ride them myself” does not.

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Who is “we”? You don’t have a breeding business, so why are you acting as the authority on the subject?

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@fizzyfuzzybuzzy

As you stated, you were hoping to talk to some breeders who are doing/have done what you are mulling over and have had some measure of success. @Montanas_Girl @exvet and myself, among others, have engaged with you.

Don’t take this the wrong way (please!!), but i would gently suggest just ignoring the posts you don’t really feel are addressing your questions or are missing your point, rather than becoming defensive/combative. I have learned this lesson the hard way over decades of posting on boards like this one and on social media. :wink:

I could jump in and start arguments with a number of the posters on this thread over statements I wholeheartedly disagree with, but that won’t be productive. I learned that simply doing research, observing quietly, absorbing as much useful knowledge as I can and working away at my goals and being steadfast in my vision has carried me to where I am today - with my last 2 foals sold in-utero for full asking price, my next one already sold (mare isn’t even in foal yet and i have a deposit and a signed purchase contract), and the one after that already spoken for as well (client has chosen a stud and asked if we could sign a contract - i said not necessary and promised first right of refusal).

So, regardless of what anyone on here has said about “traditionally bred sporthorses will always be a safer bet”, the proof is in the pudding. I was once told nobody would ever be interested in my Saddlebred crosses unless I sold them as proven under saddle mounts, and they were all wrong. I proved them all wrong. At the end of the day, I know that what i’m doing is working and that’s all that matters. I no longer feel the need to seek validation, and neither should you.
Do what you are passionate about, be responsible and sensible about it, make plans and stick to them, operate with integrity and commitment, and let everything else fall into place. :grin:

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I’ve watched people close to me breed. I also understand a bit about horse expenses. I’m also your target market customer as are many of my barn friends. I’ve also watched people get in over their heads with too many horses. And I’ve followed so many trainwrecks about breeders and rescues on COTH.

All I can offer is common sense. And I admit that I tend to drill down a bit whatever the topic if someone is presenting in a contradictory way.

The distinction between self funded luxury hobby versus a self sustaining business is a basic question everyone needs to answer when they decide to monetize any hobby or talent. It’s not specific to horses. It applies to making jewelry, restoring cars, being a musician, running a lesson or boarding barn, even to trying to become a social media personality.

People very often try to monetize a hobby that’s either costly or time consuming or both, and end up losing a lot of money because they don’t stick to a clear business plan and then end up subsidizing the activity from their other income streams but justifying that as a business expense.

My point is you need (eventually) to decide if this is a business for a market, or just a luxury hobby to create your own dream horse. Either way is fine, but there will be constraints on breeding for a market, primarily people want recognizable breeds from proven lines and they may not be willing to pay what the foals cost to produce, or may not be willing to buy a foal. Those constraints don’t exist if you want to keep and ride your foals, but in that case you are limited to how many horses you can reasonably ride.

Eventually you need to know which it is, because waffling between the two is potentially financially ruinous and can lead to way too many horses.

As it can lead to financial problems whatever hobby you try to monetize.

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Thank you for this! Sometimes my frustration gets away from me. Being stuck inside with frigid temps doesn’t help either! :wink:

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Great post. You get to the crux of what I tried to get at.

I’ve hobby bred. Breaking even is not a consideration or goal. I know multiple EXCELLENT professional knowledgeable breeders who struggle to break even. Some years are lucky. Some are incredibly hard.

If “breaking even” is part of the goal … then it’s not really hobby breeding. And as you said, there needs to be a lot of thought put into a business plan.

I know people who breed lovely quarter horses and Appaloosas and Arabs who all have good business plans, and consistently do better financially than other people I know who breed high dollar warmblood sporthorses.

One thing that is key? Can the person doing the breeding back and start their own youngsters? Can they take a youngster out and successfully do its first season showing, and represent their breeding program well? People who actually can do this seem to have pretty solid programs.

Another thing that is key… as you have mentioned in two comments… does the breeder have sufficient land to provide 24/7 turnout on good pasture for youngsters, and do they make their own hay? I know multiple breeders who have a lot of land and produce their own hay… and that definitely helps with making the whole thing closer to break even, and their youngsters get good nutrition and a good chance to develop their bones, etc.

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My point is you need (eventually) to decide if this is a business for a market, or just a luxury hobby to create your own dream horse. Either way is fine, but there will be constraints on breeding for a market, primarily people want recognizable breeds from proven lines and they may not be willing to pay what the foals cost to produce, or may not be willing to buy a foal. Those constraints don’t exist if you want to keep and ride your foals, but in that case you are limited to how many horses you can reasonably ride.

Eventually you need to know which it is, because waffling between the two is potentially financially ruinous and can lead to way too many horses.

I will say that this is the reality most of us do face and I can’t emphasize it enough; however, I also think the definition of one’s market is a bit narrowed. If you can keep your costs down by whatever means and still produce healthy, well conformed, well mannered beasts, rideable and manageable beasts of whatever flavor that possesses 3 pure gaits, one will likely have a market. I think one piece that is missing here is the presumption that any of us not conforming to the standard have the misguided belief that a successful business model is ‘build it and they will come’. Hell no. You must work your ass off training and showing your stock, demonstrating the versatility of your stock and the ease with which not just you, the ammy owner, but also others (be it kids, friends et al) can handle and ride your stock and ADVERTISE - This will create a market. There are so many avenues to utilize that provide free publicity these days it’s can be covered by most meager budgets.

I don’t personally know the OP but I do find her hypothetical goals resonating with what some of us have already done. When I went into breeding, I was already well in over my head in my addiction to dressage. I was showing, competing and participating in a variety of ‘programs’ to improve my riding, educate my eye, and develop my ‘plan’. I decided that hell if I worked my arse off to earn my bronze on my Ayerab and had the land (which I did) I might as well continue doing it riding something I loved, that my kids loved, that I would be giddy about spending my hard earned money and precious time on…etc and make more mounts for the family as well as myself to ride. I found a breed that ended up owning me as opposed to the other way around and I immersed myself in that breed. I also chose to create crosses of that breed. During my research, training, showing, working on my riding et al, I had people contacting me relatively frequently to ask me questions about ‘my breed’ and always asking what I had for sale. I wasn’t even advertising ANYTHING for sale. That got me realizing that there was a market and if they were already reaching out to me without any advertising going on, just what they heard and saw…well then.

I do think the points being raised to keep one’s head in the game are valid. Breeding nor training youngstock in order to sell are not for the faint of heart. I guess I should disclose that not only am I a veterinarian but I also possess a MBA and have run companies; so, the need for or how to develop business plans are not lost on me. I also want to emphasize the cautionary statement about SCALE or SIZE of business. I produced only what I could physically handle and keep ridden by myself. For me with a full-time job that was 4-5 horses under saddle or in training (but I had 11-14 at any one time). One key factor was having an arena on property with lights. I did little other than work and ride. I rode after work. I rode before work. I manipulated my jobs so that I could find time to ride or create time to ride or work babies or whatever. I also kept a calendar or really a training journal that was a calendar to keep me on track with what babies were learning what/which task. I cannot finish without mentioning that my children helped as well. They wanted their own horse, each, and the trade off was helping mom work the ranch, not the horses other than their own, but the feeding, watering, dragging the arena, cleaning the turnouts, holding horses for farrier, helping me with the full trailer load at the shows, yada yada. I grew up on a dairy so I saw nothing unrealistic or out-of-line with this expectation. My, now adult, children would agree.

I had to disband and retire my breeding program due to a major lifestyle change. Because my mares and stallion all had jobs in addition to the breeding aspect, I was able to sell them and not at a loss. Burning the candle at both ends worked for me and was well worth it. I became a better rider thanks to all the horses and youngstock I handled (owned and sold). My fitness level has rarely ever been called into question also due to my efforts. I started/backed and trained my children’s mounts and even now at age 60 can still start, back and train horses. I never have and still don’t spend even a fifth of what others spend on their horses in regards to boarding, training, lessons, trailering, etc. I have always been grateful to having a full-time job to afford and have the cash flow for shows, lessons, clinics for myself and my children but I also am a queen at efficiency of time and dollar. I didn’t lose my shirt and managed to break even but the key to that was far more knowing how to ‘buy’ the beasts, not the end dollar amount that I sold them. Networking has served me very well over the years. At the end of the day it’s about hard work, determination, research, creativity, and thinking outside of the box…a little luck doesn’t hurt but it is what you make of it.

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You said this much better than I did! I created a following for my girls by posting regularly about their exploits on Facebook. Just mundane, everyday interactions but things that showed their personalities and good natures. It was funny how many people who didn’t know me particularly well in real life became absolutely obsessed with my little palomino Half Arabian. To the point that one professional aquaintance - a friend of a friend, really - who I only see once every year or so at a conference always greets me with, “How is that sweet little palomino pony?” :grin: I’m not sure she’d even remember my name if it weren’t for Sydney’s exploits. Lol. Say what you will about social media, but it has done more to level the marketing playing field for small breeders than anything else I can think of!

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That was a really informative and interesting write up on how you made your program successful.

From what I have seen, breeders who can and do put the time and effort into starting their own babies under saddle and showing them seem to have a lot more success. It’s a ton of work and commitment. Much respect to you.

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This is very well stated. Coupled with @exvet’s post and others, there’s so.much.work.involved in building ANY business. When it’s your passion, this makes every decision a bit more fraught: *** what am I doing and why am I doing it *** is a heavy question to manage day in and day out with a good bit of money and sweat equity involved.

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And this is not a personal attack but this is why some people consider the KWPN a joke as far as breed registries goes.

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I guess my question is why? Most (if not all) registries accept TB outcrosses into their books and there is as much, if not more, variability in TB mares as ASB mares. No one has answered the why the hate on ASB and DHH vs TB being the cross. Are there ASBs and DHH mares that should not be selected for sporthorse breeding? Absolutely! Are there mares of those breeds that would meet (or exceed) breed standards? Also absolutely!

Either way, it’s a cross. Just my ponderings…

It sounds like you might not be familiar with the more specific rules of the registries. This is my post from one of the Kate Shearer threads. It’s not that those breeds can’t be considered for sports crosses, but the KWPN has distinctions in the registry with specific goals for functional conformation and purpose. Crossing a ASB mare with a KWPN sporthorse stallion and registering it as a dressage type does not mean the horse is a dressage prospect congruent with the breed standard. If it’s not in line with the goals of the registry, why should they allow it?

I don’t know if I’m explaining this well. I’ll admit I have believed for a long time that selling and breeding Friesians and DHH as dressage prospects is worthy of an eye roll at the very least.

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This is true if you’re talking about a puppy mill or an otherwise shady breeder. But quality AKC breeders do a lot to make sure they are producing healthy puppies, often participating in research studies and so forth, because they love the breed and want to see healthy dogs. With dogs as with horses, you have to research the breeder to make sure you’re working with someone knowledgeable and not just out for a buck. There are obviously some breeds prone to major health issues (which may be what you’re referring to), like the brachycephalics, and that certainly is an issue. But you can easily avoid those dogs and find plenty of AKC breeds in tip top health. Anecdotally, the sickest dog I ever had (poor temperament + died of cancer at 8) was an absolutely random mutt that resembled no breed known to man. I like AKC dogs for the same reason I like certain horse breeds…I want to have some notion as to what I’m in for (even though there are obviously no guarantees).

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I definitely do know about the different kinds of registration within KWPN, but if you’re selling a horse and state it has KWPN papers, most owners won’t probe further, especially if it’s a gelding. It has the desired effect of making the horse considered a registered warmblood, regardless of the quality of the parents or individual.

I haven’t ever presented a mare for approval for any breeds so no first-hand knowledge of the process or which registry is more stringent on standards. Myself, wanting to produce a quality horse, would self-regulate to some extent - I would choose a mare with a performance record (or produce that record myself) and choose an appropriate stallion to produce a sporthorse foal. Whether the breed of the mare is TB, ASB or DHH, or WB that standard will met. I think that’s what I was trying to get across in my earlier comments that made me seem like I was all over the board. Because to me, I am looking at the individual - I think you can find a breeding quality mare in all of those breeds.

I hope that clears up my earlier posts and changes the perception.

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I’m very far behind but most (all?) warmblood registries accept TB mares in their mare books - including AHS, KWPN, Oldenburg, Rhinelander, Trakehner, etc. That is, TB mares with JC papers - unregistered TB mares may be accepted by some registries but only in their lowest mare books.

I will also add that some foals end up registered with CSH and certain other registries because the sire was not approved for breeding by a more mainstream WB registry OR because the breeder couldn’t get to an inspection that requires foal inspection before registration.

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Some WB registries such as AHS are very tough on TB mares. They will accept them but the criteria is tougher for TB mares - I know of mares that were not accepted by AHS (but who were later accepted by other registries). KWPN doesn’t even require inspection of TB mares with JC papers - just breed her to a KWPN approved stallion and you can register the foal online without either mare or foal needing to be inspected.

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I expect access to inspection would be a huge hurdle for many small time or backyard breeders. Canada is huge and empty. I Googled Oldenburg inspections and in 2023 they had 3 locations in October in Quebec and Ontario. That’s a 4500 km drive from here, 48 hours, took 4 or 5 days of nonstop driving when I did it. Not going to ship any foals to that!

I guess you could drop down to one of the American inspections in WA or CA if you felt ok shipping your foals across the border. It would still be a multi day journey if you were in the BC interior.

I expect a certain number of breeders don’t get the jockey club papers for the OTTB mares too. And obviously getting the mare pre approved at an inspection would be the same logistical nightmare.

http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=inspection_tour%schedule#Canada

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OP, I am genuinely curious. What is it about a DHH that makes you think it would be a good candidate for producing sport horses? Is is the conformation? Movement? Temperament?

I’m asking because although I have certainly been wowed by some DHH specimens in harness, I would not consider them as having traits I want in a hunter, jumper, eventer, or dressage horse - at any level. In general they are:
1 - Too big headed and have too much action and are too upright for hunters. In addition, they have a tendency to be ewe-necked and have not traditionally been bred for quality of canter or for jumping ability.
2 - Ditto for jumpers, plus they often are too level in the croup to have much power behind.
3 - Too big and heavy and not enough quality of canter or gallop or “blood” for eventing.
4 - Too upright in neck set and flat in the croup for dressage, plus their action is very up and down with not a lot of sitting or carrying power.
5 - The ones that I have seen are pretty spicy!

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As far as TB versus harness breeds.

Before the popularity of European WB, the TB was the sport horse of choice in North America and Britain. Obviously TB vary in their individual talents, but in general TB are fast, they have heart, they have great canters and three good pure gaits, and they can jump. The downside of TB is that they can be a bit fragile and they can be a bit hot. But also right now they suffer a marketing problem. Everyone assumes first that you can get an OTTB practically for free when it retires so they have less perceived value. And also because retired race horses can have injuries, people tend to think OTTB are more fragile than they are, when in fact they’ve held up more than most breeds would to the work. Finally dressage standards have evolved to favor the big (and sometimes impure) gaits of the modern WB.

Crossing TB on heavier breeds or ponies was very common in Britain to make hunters, and crossing TB on harness or cavalry horses created the modern European WB. So TB is a legitimate and long established part of the DNA of sport horses.

Obviously TB vary in quality for sport horse use, which is why the more quality driven WB registries want to inspect TB mares for approval.

By and large, the sport horse WB registries are no longer adding outside harness blood to their breeding programs. The KWPN is an outlier because they have multiple types including harness and heavy horse. From what I understand the registry wants to keep these types distinct. Just because you technically can breed a KWPN harness horse to a dressage stallion and register KWPN doesn’t make it a useful breeding direction.

If it was, then the European WB registries would be incorporating harness and saddle seat everywhere. And they aren’t. These are really opportunistic registries. If they thought there was a competition advantage to importing some ASB or SB or hackney or harness horse, they’d put that in the mix. They aren’t. They do use TB.

The trade off is, in general the bigger and flashier the trot, the less collection, for a number of conformation and training reasons. We already see top contender WB with 11/10 :slight_smile: extended trots doing surprisingly mehh canter pirouettes and piaffe (compared to say an Iberian). Most WB do not need more harness trot blood to be better dressage horses. They are already at the upper edge where they are losing the ability to collect in favor of the trot.

There’s a reason why we aren’t seeing more big stepping breeds like ASB or SB or hackney or DHH cleaning up in dressage, despite having factory installed trots that equal or exceed the top dressage prospects. It’s because they don’t have the sit and the collection. On the opposite side the Iberians have all that collection factory installed but don’t have the huge trot that is so significant in scores today.

Obviously there are big differences in gait within a breed, and big differences in conformation and ability to collect. Watching an arena full of Andalusians in hand or Friesians in harness, it’s amazing how different gaits could be, when basically unimpeded by riding, some have high knees and others have longer reach. Likewise some WB can collect fine and others are like driving a B train truck or riding a potato.

But if you are planning a breeding program from scratch you want to think about the average range of a given breed. Not just “I had a horse of breed xxx that was fantastic but an outlier” so I’m going to try to make more of him. Especially if that horse was a crossbred.

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