I think she has a gross misunderstanding of the intention behind the KWPN registry and rule book.
I’ve always thought KWPN should reconsider their “open door policy.” Or at least close the door a little. But that’s just me.
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Irresponsible breeders are a tough issue for all registries. I wish there were easier answers… but I for sure don’t know of any.
I think this thread has been helpful in terms of giving people who are curious about DHHs, or nice youngstock with a DHH parent, those people should come away with a better idea of questions to ask when considering purchasing. Of course people should always evaluate the horse in front of them, but when dealing with youngstock… that’s challenging.
So ask about mare lines. Has the dam earned predicates? Has she competed? Can a buyer see the dam? What sport are the offspring competing in, and can a buyer see video of them?
Where did the breeder get the dam, and why is the breeder breeding her?
Mare lines, mare lines, mare lines.
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You know that one of the most popular and recommended TB reseller sources quite a few of their horses from Charles Town track? I can usually find a couple on the listings on a regular basis.
It’s always funny to hear people shame that track, then talk about how nice horse x,y,z is knowing said horse was sourced via Charles Town.
And no hard feelings, I’m glad the resellers are showing them in a great light and getting them excellent sport homes. Some of the WV bred horses might not be the most athletic, but have brains.
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Thank you -)
The rider is amazing! And the horses tack is simplicity itself.
That’s exactly what I mean. They’re a little lax on the mare side. The KWPN has four distinct types, plus the A and B registry for a reason, and their goal for each group is pretty obvious. KWPN has developed a reputation in the breeding world (IME) as “the rest of the bag” because of how lenient they are about mare inspection. The mare is everything.
You can get some really nice horses from breeding meh mares to quality stallions. A friend of mine has a 5 year old who is REALLY lovely by one of Anne Sparks’ stallions out of an OTTB mare. The horse is registered KWPN because the mare isn’t inspected. The mare packed a teenager around training level XC courses which tells me her brain is valuable enough to consider breeding. My friend’s filly has a full sister that’s 2-3 years older and the sister is nowhere near the caliber of horse my friend has. Why they did that cross again I don’t know.
I am all in on introducing TB blood and some nice specimens of other breeds into WB studbooks. A closed book rarely benefits the breed (just look at AKC and some of the monsters in the AQHA; re/popularizing TB blood and cracking down on genetic testing helped the breed out in a huge way).
There’s always going to be irresponsible breeders and fugly horses that are automatically eligible for registration based on parents’ registration. What Kate is trying to pass off as quality jumper and dressage goals because they’re KWPN is clownery. But god forbid anyone mention a horse with a flat croup, long loin, and upright neck and shoulder isn’t an ideal dressage candidate because someone knows a DHH that went to GP. 
The point is that the horse does not fit the breed standard for the dressage section of the KWPN. So trying to pass it off as KWPN and sell to sport horse buyers looks bad on everybody.
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In the twelve yrs we have been together, and my wife before that have gotten scads of OTTBs from low level track, Fairmount Park on the Illinois side of St Louis metro area for field hunters, eventers, and jumpers. e gotten some really nice horses…and a few “turkeys”. One, before we were together, she brought home from the track on a Wednesday and she took him fox hunting on Saturday !! We eventually sold him to the MFH of Cheshire in Chester County, PA.
Another gorgeous !7.2H gelding we bought after he just showed up for breakfast one morning with a couple of our other horses……really ! Our next farm neighbor had brought him home from the track the day before and he hopped over a five foot four rail fence to be with our guys….we decided he should stay 
he was a Champion show hunter and was the National High Point TB in the USHJA pre green incentive program. Here he is
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We’ve have two TB mares we have bred to German verband approved WB stallions, (one of them ours).Three of the four foals from them were taken to inspections and all three have been Champion foal. The fourth foal was by ISH, Flexible, so no inspection
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This was the hardest part for me to understand of the show horse world for saddlebreds. Simply put, they not only don’t value manners to the same degree the sport horse world does, but they view some of the repetitive drilling that you need to do to get manners as taking the life out of a horse.
They value different things.
This does not make the breed inherently bad nor unsuitable for amateurs. Their early training experiences and expectations are entirely different.
Hubert’s temperament may be delightful. We don’t know, because he isn’t being asked to behave in the same manner as you would a sporthorse. He would require some patient reeducation because that is literally not what his life has been about.
When I got my saddlebred gelding, he couldn’t stand still. He was a perpetual motion machine, tap dancing in the cross ties and had no clue how to stand at the mounting block. It was not that he was inherently bad (though he is somewhat high energy) it was that he simply never learned. Those weren’t expectations people had of him.
Once taught, he was fine.
I got him as a 5 year old, and he is 11 now. In those years he has dropped me exactly once, which was not his fault - I was on the buckle and a horse came galloping at him through the leaves. He spun and I didn’t stick. I was unprepared.
I’m a late 40s unfit rider with a bad back and two surgical hips. When I’m stiff, he walks super slowly to help me warm up. I had PTSD from bad accidents prior to buying him, and he patiently dealt with all of my fear. I don’t care how much someone would offer me, he is never for sale. That’s how good his temperament is. My mare was the same way.
I’ve owned many TBs, QHs, and more than a few warmbloods. None of them were trustworthy like he is, though they seemed quieter on the surface.
In the saddle seat world, often amateur owners only ride their horses once a month or at shows. A trainer preps them, yes, but they ride them in slick pants and no knee rolls with people hooting and hollering in absolutely terrifying arenas. I see far fewer falls (I think I’ve seen 3) than I ever did in the hunter ring. These horses look nuts, but are very very safe.
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Were they registered KWPN? Otherwise I don’t know what this really has to do with my post.
It sounds like you have a great breeding program and have produced some very nice horses.
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I recognize that ring. Nice trip!
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the horse isn’t even ridden that much, after broke. Typically just once a week, the rest is long lining (which is why I have this skill, where most people in the sport world don’t - it’s a great skill btw), actual driving (if they do that) or longing in a rig (rarely).
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The thing I noticed about that poor Hubert horse in the video is that even with all of the shenanigans and rearing and such he isn’t using his feet. I kept expecting him to kick out and try to break free or flip over or something. Instead he is acting up but (more or less) within his own little space. It’s not great, what he is doing is definitely dangerous and the owner seems like a dingbat, but given how ramped up that poor animal is I was sort of amazed he didn’t have a total meltdown.
We have a Friesian at the barn who is one of the dumbest horses I’ve ever met- apparently he was imported from the Netherlands for a lot of money and the inexperienced owner got scammed, since he was misrepresented as highly trained in dressage and very safe. He is neither of those things. Bad, bad conformation, owner doesn’t take care of his flowing locks so he always looks unkempt, is incredibly spooky, cannot use his back (it is a bit swayed and his croup is flatter than flat), has terrible manners in turnout (he was kicked out of the first barn they had him at and needed a CTJ at ours but he’s still rude), and did I mention how dumb he is?
But the owner loves him and despite wanting a UL dressage horse, she is a beginner and seems to have no competition aspirations. She does walk with a tiny amount of trot one or two times a week, which suits them both. She thinks he is the most beautiful horse in the world, and so everything works out. She once told me her favorite horse in the barn is my older jumper, which made me silently wonder why she has the horse she does, since mine can actually do things and isn’t an idiot, but whatever- she seems very happy with her horse. I overheard her saying it is a shame her guy is gelded (yikes, no, it is a good thing!!!), which brings us back to the point of how many people are out there who don’t know what they are doing, breeding or buying poorly-bred animals.
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Exactly. I used to ground drive my draft cross greenies before they were saddled, but I learned to long line because of my saddlebreds. Many saddlebreds jog (drive).
The expectations of the show saddle seat horses are SO different than a sporthorse. Typically they are kept in stalls and only come out to work or play, and they work for about 20 minutes. They are intentionally kept very fresh.
The other thing too, sometimes what scares a sporthorse won’t scare a saddlebred and vice versa. My saddlebreds don’t blink an eye at scary flappy things that completely unhinge my quarter horses. However, sometimes leaves are very scary to them. They haven’t seen leaves very often in their upbringing but they’ve seen a whole lot of flapping things. It’s just completely an inverse experience. They figure it out eventually.
There are many saddlebreds posing as thoroughbreds fox-hunting. There’s a growing movement to train them for dressage. True, there are few examples I would make show hunters (open show hunters) but that’s because of their conformation and movement, most don’t cut daisies as that is not desirable in their breeding (I think I may have mentioned this before, but a saddlebred trainer I know called it “kicking dirt” and was NOT saying it to be flattering to the horse in question). I’d definitely jump them, they are careful, athletic and many are quick. Mine does not jump flat, nor does he have a flat croup.
What makes the horses of the subject of this thread unsuitable for h/j is not necessarily their inborn temperament because they are DHH or have saddlebred blood, IMO, but their poor conformation, starvation, and dubious breeding history. As mentioned before, I wouldn’t even select them for harness or saddle seat.
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Replied to wrong person…this forum format very awkward
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This is what I saw. Absolutely obnoxious behavior but I didn’t really find it threatening. Kind of like my old tb jigging after an early morning bath at the show. Total dork and from the outside looking in you might be worried for the 14 year old on the end of the line, but he wasn’t gonna actually go anywhere and would never come on top of me.
I wouldn’t tolerate this extreme nor enjoy it, and the concept of encouraging it is quite foreign to me lol, but I guess I “get” what they are going for. Basically the equine equivalent of bravado— all talk, no action.
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Saddle seat and harness folks and us ex saddle-seat and harness folks don’t find Hubert’s behavior at all obnoxious. GIDDY UP !!!
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Just to help explain some intricacies here…
If you click the reply arrow that’s at the bottom of a post, that replies to that specific post and the person who wrote it will get a notification that you’ve replied to the post.
If you click the reply box at the very bottom of the thread, below the last reply, that is a general reply on the thread, rather than to a specific person/post.
If you highlight text in a post, a “quote” box will pop up, and you can click that to add that text to your post (like I did here) and that person will get a notification that they’ve been quoted.
I hope that helps!
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I had a marvelous experience taking a country gentleman of a Morgan horse to a show barn for boarding. Never in his 6 years had he seen anything other than a field and a couple of other horses. He quickly became accustomed to all the activity of a professional Morgan barn, including driving horses, pleasure, park, western, dressage and hunt seat. Nothing phased him after spending a year at that barn. I rode him strictly for pleasure riding.
The barn owner had a fabulous kind of crouch and growl she’d use to hep up the horses for the show ring. They were as amused by it as I was. There wasn’t any fear involved, just a cue for the horses to animate themselves.
In this particular barn every horse had turnout and every horse was ridden out and on the trail, broodmares, stallions, show horses. Morgans are very versatile and each horse was put to work where conformation or ability suited best.
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This scenario always reminds me of this old classic, although it’s sort of the opposite situation. Luckily it sounds like the one in your barn will have a nice life with his person. Yay for both of them.
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