You said this much better than I did! I created a following for my girls by posting regularly about their exploits on Facebook. Just mundane, everyday interactions but things that showed their personalities and good natures. It was funny how many people who didn’t know me particularly well in real life became absolutely obsessed with my little palomino Half Arabian. To the point that one professional aquaintance - a friend of a friend, really - who I only see once every year or so at a conference always greets me with, “How is that sweet little palomino pony?” 
I’m not sure she’d even remember my name if it weren’t for Sydney’s exploits. Lol. Say what you will about social media, but it has done more to level the marketing playing field for small breeders than anything else I can think of!
That was a really informative and interesting write up on how you made your program successful.
From what I have seen, breeders who can and do put the time and effort into starting their own babies under saddle and showing them seem to have a lot more success. It’s a ton of work and commitment. Much respect to you.
This is very well stated. Coupled with @exvet’s post and others, there’s so.much.work.involved in building ANY business. When it’s your passion, this makes every decision a bit more fraught: *** what am I doing and why am I doing it *** is a heavy question to manage day in and day out with a good bit of money and sweat equity involved.
And this is not a personal attack but this is why some people consider the KWPN a joke as far as breed registries goes.
I guess my question is why? Most (if not all) registries accept TB outcrosses into their books and there is as much, if not more, variability in TB mares as ASB mares. No one has answered the why the hate on ASB and DHH vs TB being the cross. Are there ASBs and DHH mares that should not be selected for sporthorse breeding? Absolutely! Are there mares of those breeds that would meet (or exceed) breed standards? Also absolutely!
Either way, it’s a cross. Just my ponderings…
It sounds like you might not be familiar with the more specific rules of the registries. This is my post from one of the Kate Shearer threads. It’s not that those breeds can’t be considered for sports crosses, but the KWPN has distinctions in the registry with specific goals for functional conformation and purpose. Crossing a ASB mare with a KWPN sporthorse stallion and registering it as a dressage type does not mean the horse is a dressage prospect congruent with the breed standard. If it’s not in line with the goals of the registry, why should they allow it?
I don’t know if I’m explaining this well. I’ll admit I have believed for a long time that selling and breeding Friesians and DHH as dressage prospects is worthy of an eye roll at the very least.
This is true if you’re talking about a puppy mill or an otherwise shady breeder. But quality AKC breeders do a lot to make sure they are producing healthy puppies, often participating in research studies and so forth, because they love the breed and want to see healthy dogs. With dogs as with horses, you have to research the breeder to make sure you’re working with someone knowledgeable and not just out for a buck. There are obviously some breeds prone to major health issues (which may be what you’re referring to), like the brachycephalics, and that certainly is an issue. But you can easily avoid those dogs and find plenty of AKC breeds in tip top health. Anecdotally, the sickest dog I ever had (poor temperament + died of cancer at 8) was an absolutely random mutt that resembled no breed known to man. I like AKC dogs for the same reason I like certain horse breeds…I want to have some notion as to what I’m in for (even though there are obviously no guarantees).
I definitely do know about the different kinds of registration within KWPN, but if you’re selling a horse and state it has KWPN papers, most owners won’t probe further, especially if it’s a gelding. It has the desired effect of making the horse considered a registered warmblood, regardless of the quality of the parents or individual.
I haven’t ever presented a mare for approval for any breeds so no first-hand knowledge of the process or which registry is more stringent on standards. Myself, wanting to produce a quality horse, would self-regulate to some extent - I would choose a mare with a performance record (or produce that record myself) and choose an appropriate stallion to produce a sporthorse foal. Whether the breed of the mare is TB, ASB or DHH, or WB that standard will met. I think that’s what I was trying to get across in my earlier comments that made me seem like I was all over the board. Because to me, I am looking at the individual - I think you can find a breeding quality mare in all of those breeds.
I hope that clears up my earlier posts and changes the perception.
I’m very far behind but most (all?) warmblood registries accept TB mares in their mare books - including AHS, KWPN, Oldenburg, Rhinelander, Trakehner, etc. That is, TB mares with JC papers - unregistered TB mares may be accepted by some registries but only in their lowest mare books.
I will also add that some foals end up registered with CSH and certain other registries because the sire was not approved for breeding by a more mainstream WB registry OR because the breeder couldn’t get to an inspection that requires foal inspection before registration.
Some WB registries such as AHS are very tough on TB mares. They will accept them but the criteria is tougher for TB mares - I know of mares that were not accepted by AHS (but who were later accepted by other registries). KWPN doesn’t even require inspection of TB mares with JC papers - just breed her to a KWPN approved stallion and you can register the foal online without either mare or foal needing to be inspected.
I expect access to inspection would be a huge hurdle for many small time or backyard breeders. Canada is huge and empty. I Googled Oldenburg inspections and in 2023 they had 3 locations in October in Quebec and Ontario. That’s a 4500 km drive from here, 48 hours, took 4 or 5 days of nonstop driving when I did it. Not going to ship any foals to that!
I guess you could drop down to one of the American inspections in WA or CA if you felt ok shipping your foals across the border. It would still be a multi day journey if you were in the BC interior.
I expect a certain number of breeders don’t get the jockey club papers for the OTTB mares too. And obviously getting the mare pre approved at an inspection would be the same logistical nightmare.
http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=inspection_tour%schedule#Canada
OP, I am genuinely curious. What is it about a DHH that makes you think it would be a good candidate for producing sport horses? Is is the conformation? Movement? Temperament?
I’m asking because although I have certainly been wowed by some DHH specimens in harness, I would not consider them as having traits I want in a hunter, jumper, eventer, or dressage horse - at any level. In general they are:
1 - Too big headed and have too much action and are too upright for hunters. In addition, they have a tendency to be ewe-necked and have not traditionally been bred for quality of canter or for jumping ability.
2 - Ditto for jumpers, plus they often are too level in the croup to have much power behind.
3 - Too big and heavy and not enough quality of canter or gallop or “blood” for eventing.
4 - Too upright in neck set and flat in the croup for dressage, plus their action is very up and down with not a lot of sitting or carrying power.
5 - The ones that I have seen are pretty spicy!
As far as TB versus harness breeds.
Before the popularity of European WB, the TB was the sport horse of choice in North America and Britain. Obviously TB vary in their individual talents, but in general TB are fast, they have heart, they have great canters and three good pure gaits, and they can jump. The downside of TB is that they can be a bit fragile and they can be a bit hot. But also right now they suffer a marketing problem. Everyone assumes first that you can get an OTTB practically for free when it retires so they have less perceived value. And also because retired race horses can have injuries, people tend to think OTTB are more fragile than they are, when in fact they’ve held up more than most breeds would to the work. Finally dressage standards have evolved to favor the big (and sometimes impure) gaits of the modern WB.
Crossing TB on heavier breeds or ponies was very common in Britain to make hunters, and crossing TB on harness or cavalry horses created the modern European WB. So TB is a legitimate and long established part of the DNA of sport horses.
Obviously TB vary in quality for sport horse use, which is why the more quality driven WB registries want to inspect TB mares for approval.
By and large, the sport horse WB registries are no longer adding outside harness blood to their breeding programs. The KWPN is an outlier because they have multiple types including harness and heavy horse. From what I understand the registry wants to keep these types distinct. Just because you technically can breed a KWPN harness horse to a dressage stallion and register KWPN doesn’t make it a useful breeding direction.
If it was, then the European WB registries would be incorporating harness and saddle seat everywhere. And they aren’t. These are really opportunistic registries. If they thought there was a competition advantage to importing some ASB or SB or hackney or harness horse, they’d put that in the mix. They aren’t. They do use TB.
The trade off is, in general the bigger and flashier the trot, the less collection, for a number of conformation and training reasons. We already see top contender WB with 11/10 
extended trots doing surprisingly mehh canter pirouettes and piaffe (compared to say an Iberian). Most WB do not need more harness trot blood to be better dressage horses. They are already at the upper edge where they are losing the ability to collect in favor of the trot.
There’s a reason why we aren’t seeing more big stepping breeds like ASB or SB or hackney or DHH cleaning up in dressage, despite having factory installed trots that equal or exceed the top dressage prospects. It’s because they don’t have the sit and the collection. On the opposite side the Iberians have all that collection factory installed but don’t have the huge trot that is so significant in scores today.
Obviously there are big differences in gait within a breed, and big differences in conformation and ability to collect. Watching an arena full of Andalusians in hand or Friesians in harness, it’s amazing how different gaits could be, when basically unimpeded by riding, some have high knees and others have longer reach. Likewise some WB can collect fine and others are like driving a B train truck or riding a potato.
But if you are planning a breeding program from scratch you want to think about the average range of a given breed. Not just “I had a horse of breed xxx that was fantastic but an outlier” so I’m going to try to make more of him. Especially if that horse was a crossbred.
For me, it’s not about the wow. I love their work ethic, soundness and funny personality. A lot of the things you see in harness are exaggerated by “training”, same as ASBs. If I felt brave enough to post a photo of myself (maybe I’ll PM you) I would show you my DHH. He is big, tough, gorgeous. He loves to work and never says no, even if he’s scared. His personality is the barn favorite, always wants to know what is going on, play with me and his pasture mates. He was gelded at 8 years old and a kid could handle him.
He never had a ewe neck (I pulled him out of a field 300 lbs underweight, so if he was going to have one, I would have seen it), his head is super cute and proportional for his size. He has a naturally amazing canter with huge step under. I would not consider him an eventing prospect but we do cavaletti with decent form. If I focused on training that aspect he would likely do fine. He does struggle with carrying behind, but I also got him after 6 years of amish buggy horse life and working in an overcheck, pulling himself along on his forehand. Now that we’ve built some good topline and hind end muscle, its way better.
He is a rescue/repurpose, I often wish I had gotten him as an unstarted 2 year old to see the blank slate. He is somewhat spicy but honestly, it’s more PTSD (he worries about stuff easily) and no more than the MAJORITY of WBs I’ve worked with that were purpose bred dressage horses. And #3 and #5 are fairly contradictory. My coach (she trained her horse from 2 yo and just got her last score for her gold medal last year) thinks he has more than enough talent to make FEI. I’m not a big show-er myself but I have high hopes that we can get to 2nd level this year.
In working with him, I’ve found that a lot of that ewe neck/flat croup is posture and not conformation. If raised and started as a sporthorse, that muscle would develop appropriately, as it is now that he is in full dressage work. As mentioned by ASBJumper earlier, looking for that lack of tension and not the extreme movement/conformation is what I plan to do when searching for the next horse.
ETA to my already too long post: I also think part of the problem is that all anyone sees of these horses are the extremes. Check out Varvel Sporthorses or Shooting Star Farm (their stallion Jaleet). They are out there and performing well.
Virtually every horse can do First Level Dressage. As far as “enough talent to do PSG and above,” you don’t know until you get to Fourth Level
Your rescue story is heart warming and I see why you love him. But I predict he will continue to struggle with collection.
I feel like you are early days in your dressage journey, despite having years of horse experience, which is not an insult. Have you brought a horse along to Fourth or PSG in the past? Have you schooled a lot of lateral, pirouettes, piaffe, passage? Do you have a real sense of how this horse compares to a WB or an Iberian at the same stage of training? Or to any other breed you have brought along?
You might also want to look into resources on functional conformation. In particular it can be hard to distinguish where a neck is tied in versus the inherent curve of the neck versus undermuscling versus incorrect head carriage from training or habit. Very often I see horses in “swan neck” which is both conformation and riding error.
Likewise, a flat croup is a conformational breed standard in some lines of Arab, SB, and harness horse. It’s not going to change.
For comparison, the horses that collect the best in the entire world (in different ways) are the two main cattle working breeds: performance QH and bull fighting Lusitanos. Have a look at their hind ends, not just croup but the length of hip, the angles of hock, the length of femur. That’s where collection comes from.
Ah, he sounds like a nice guy! But also sounds like an outlier, as Scribbler so aptly described in the preceding post.
"I had a horse of breed xxx that was fantastic but an outlier.”
And it is very, very difficult to consistently produce outliers because the genotype is generally not strong enough in regards to the desired traits. I guess if you bred one excellent outlier to another excellent outlier, you would have a better chance of getting a nice result, but when both parents come from families that were not ever bred to produce the qualities you want, your chances are greater that you will get a lot of undesirable traits. To me, it makes more sense to stack the deck by using parents whose genotypes are more conducive to producing the qualities I want than to take a chance on using “outliers” to produce those qualities. There is also a lot to be said for using parents whose families have PROVEN to produce desirable qualities through competition success in the chosen field.
Yeah, but you can wait until the foal is born an bring mare and foal for registration to a “foal show”.
OK, I’m trying to take ASBJumper’s advice and not get argumentative and combative. I really am. So after this comment I think I need to be done, since I’m not getting anything but frustration from this thread anymore. I TRULY appreciate the commenters who added their experiences - exvet, ASBJumper, bingbingbing, fivestrideline - you all have been super helpful and I have enjoyed our conversation greatly.
But it’s now devolved into talking in circles and judgement. If you only breed proven lines, the genetic pool would be incredibly small to the point of huge health issues in every breed. Do you know how evolution happens? Nature selecting MUTATIONS (read:outliers) that positively impact the species. If you discount those outliers, there will never be change, positive or negative. And you considering my lovely guy an outlier speaks more to you living in a bubble and refusing to leave than my horse. Next time, you stick your neck out and talk about your own horses, your own experiences and your own capabilities than judging a stranger on the internet. You are the reason these conversations don’t happen and progress isn’t made. Congrats!
The European WB stud books tend to exclude American breeds such as Standardbred or Saddlebred because the numbers of such horses in Europe are vanishingly small. One reason why many European WB stud books can be a bit dubious about TBs is because TB horse racing is not big business in most European countries. There is one “galloping” racecourse in The Netherlands so the Dutch are not going be producing TBs. Belgium has 150 galloping races each year, mostly won by foreign trained horses. Germany has a disproportionate influence because their small TB breeding industry does produce top European gallopers. Britain, Ireland and France are the big TB nations. The betting public in France probably has more interest in Trotting than Galloping races.
The big question might be why doesn’t America have a major WB registry? Standardbred, Saddlebred, TB, Morgan should have sufficient common genes from their past histories to produce something very useful.
Clearly you are unaware who some of the people are who are taking time to reply to you and talk about breeding.
Several posters on this thread are very experienced and respected breeders. They know what they are talking about.
You started the thread and solicited opinions from others concerning the viability of your idea. You then got feedback. You then got upset with the feedback you received.
Oh well. Good luck with your DHH. He sounds like a nice horse
