Bit for Heavy Horse + Reschooling the Hard Mouth Horse

[kaya842]

I recently purchased a new mare who is very well schooled and likely knows more than I do (record up to 1.30m with well known pros and also tan Prelim eventing). However, she’s picked up some bad habits after being owned by a few different Ammys that either let her get away with it or simply didn’t know better. She has all the buttons for nice flatwork but my lord is she heavy in the hands while also being overly sensitive to leg/ life. She is a hot mare, that’s certainly not going to change a whole lot but I think there is room to improve her flat work and that doing so will resolve some issues she’s having over fences. I haven’t had a hard mouthed horse in forever and am a bit at a loss on what exercises to throw at her. Any exercises or ideas here are greatly appreciated! I am making it a priority to get her to respond to my legs/ seat/ voice to slow and stop instead of relying on the bit as she currently does.

I think her bit(s) may need changed around as well. She currently flats in a poponcini loose ring and jumps in a poponcini full cheek gag. The loose ring is fine but certainly not what either one of us love - she will gape her mouth a bit and pretty much tuned me out until I was “shouting” with my aids. The gag is okay but again I think there’s room for improvement. I’m not sure why the previous owner chose a full cheek as she has no issue turning, but the gag does give better brakes. That being said, she pops up in front when half halting while jumping (which is the whole reason she was being sold). My previous jumper did the same until I got the right bit and she learned I could ride her up into the contact. Again, the new mare needs some reschooling to the bridle but I also think a gag isn’t the best idea. Any bit suggestions for her? She doesnt have a ton of room in her mouth as her tongue is so thick. I have a loose ring Myler I’m going to try out today on her, and have a leather D ring (my leather loose ring is too small) I could try too. I’ve tried her in both a plain cavesson and a figure 8 and would say she is the same in both.

[drop_shot]

Your mare sounds pretty similar to my gelding when I first got him. I ended up finding that he went best in any bit that was a rubber mullen mouth. The bits you mentioned seem similar, but I’m not certain how soft they are. For my guy, the thickness of the rubber mullen mouth allowed him become comfortable with reaching into the contact.

For exercises on the flat, I primarily did a ton of trot work. Too many transitions would make him hotter. We did lots of bending in for a few step, trotting straight, then bending out for a few steps, etc. Lots of extension on the long side and then collection on the short side. Throwing in lateral work also really helped desensitize him a bit to my leg.

For jumping, he had a similar issue. He would flip his head a stride before the jump. What ultimately ended up helping the most was for us to make tiny jumps in a simple hunter course and to go around in a very light seat. Don’t try to manage a distance, just let him jump whatever came up, stay up out of the saddle the entire time, relax the rein, and stay in two-point a stride or two after the jump. Doing that for about a year has given him the confidence to relax during the course. Now when we jump, if I need to sit or manage him more directly, he doesn’t mind at all.

[strangewings]

I never used it, but a loose-ring Waterford has been recommended to me in the past for hard-mouthed horses.

When choosing the bit, it’s important to diagnose why the horse is hard-mouthed. My current horse did/does it for conformational and hind end weakness reasons, so I thought the waterford was not a good fit - also a bad fit for me as I tend to hold. A gag was the right choice for him - enforces the half halt, but I don’t hold with that bit. The popping up in front with your mare means I would not consider a gag on her.

The objective of choosing that waterford is that there’s nothing for the horse to lean on. That seems to me to be an option for a horse that leans due to prior training or “mental” reasons, and less good for a horse that leans for physical reasons. That’s a personal, amateur, opinion though, so take it with that grain of salt.

Could be a fair choice for initial reschooling in your case, esp. paired with flatwork to help with the oversensitivity to the leg. I’d go way back to halt-walk work in hand to let her mentally decompress and add some verbal commands. Then do the same from the saddle - walk halt with verbal and seat, minimal reins. Then start working in suppling exercises and lateral work.

Hard to say where exactly to go from there - depends on your timeline and how safe the horse is jumping and in the field. With mine (very safe), I will go out and work on wtc transitions up and down hills and mix that into conditioning rides. The horse I rode as a kid was a bolter - he only ever went in an eggbutt snaffle, and that was enough to stop him (by turning him, not by pulling). I’m not sure I’d have been safe in the field in a loose ring waterford with him.

[RedMareDontCare]

While this issue can be frustrating, you’re in luck, because it is one of the most common negative behaviours seen in schooled horses.

First of all, you’re definitely right, I wouldn’t recommend a mullen mouth in a horse that leans on the bit, especially one as malleable as the poponcini. The loose ring Myler is a great idea for the flat work, and if you find that she is still leaning on that, I’d go to something that doesn’t lock and perhaps has a roller as well. This should help loosen the jaw quite a bit, but be aware that you will have to be really prudent about maintaining a light but STEADY contact or the gaping will continue no matter what bit you use.

As I’m sure you’re aware, there is no magic bit to solve any horse’s problems, so here are some exercises pertaining to your issue that I’ve had first-hand success with.

1. Transitions - Yes, this is incredibly “duh”, but we often ignore them. Not only will they help to bring her off of your hand, but the upwards transitions will also force her to deal with and respond appropriately to your leg aid. When you feel her leaning, do a downwards transition, and if you really feel like you need a rebalance, halt and have her just think about the rein back. I’m not a fan of too much rein back as some of them can get really frustrated, so be careful. Your leg should stay on her side, so this will also help with her oversensitivity, and she should shift her weight off of her front legs, and then reward her with an upwards transition.
2. The give and re-take - Again, a pretty common one, but a horse cannot lean on your hands if they’re not there.
3. Loopy figures - I’m talking big circles, small circles, figure eights, serpentines, basically just ride like a toddler draws. Straight lines are when these horses are able to brace. Loopy riding leads to loose, balanced, and obedient horses.
4. The square - this exercise can be done at any gait. Halt slightly off the rail (for the purposes of the explanation say you’re on the right rein at B). Do a turn on the haunches 90 degrees to the right so that you are facing the inside of the area. Upwards transition and walk/trot/canter approx 20 meters (to E). Halt slightly off the rail. Do a turn on the haunches 90 degrees, and repeat so that you are riding a square. This exercise creates an obedient, light horse. Make sure that when halting the halt is totally immobile (both before and after the turn on the haunches), and that you are firm about your transitions.

As you said, the jumping will come with the flat work. Hope this helps!

[kaya842]

Thanks guys!

The transitions definitely rile her up a bit as does any shape coming across the arena, especially at the canter (I think old owner did lots and lots of changes with her as she anticipates them so badly). I don’t plan to jump her until we have the flat work more in hand but don’t want to stick entirely to h/w as she is in her late teens and I don’t want her to lose fitness while we work through things. I think trail riding her will do wonders but I’m not super sure how she is out of the arena or riding alone as I don’t have anyone to trail ride with me. Poor girl just needs to take a deep breath mentally.

[Words_of_Wisdom]

The rubber and Poponcini bits are too thick for many horses-- if she’s opening her mouth, that may be the case for her as well.
I personally like either a french link gag or quarter moon gag, and lots of lateral work. There will be people up in arms here about this, but a school in a double twisted wire every once and a while can also be very helpful.
Once they learn to lift their back and engage their hind end, they’re usually a lot less heavy.

[EventerAJ]

Transitions. And I mean lots of them-- 50 per ride, and count them. They won’t be pretty, especially in the beginning, but don’t get hung up on perfection; just aim for improvement. Better starightness; better softness; better lightness; better promptness in each attempt. Try to let go as soon as she commits to the downward trans; and don’t take your leg off, hot horses need more leg support, not less. Ignore her head and mouth, get her body parts more obedient, let go at every available opportunity, and you will be amazed how much more rideable she can be after 2 weeks of focused transitions.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I predict horrified gasps.

Try a double bridle.

I was riding/reschooling a lesson horse. This horse’s conformation, according to the books, should have meant that the double bridle would be horrible on him (croup high, sway back, ewe neck). This horse’s neck muscles right behind the throatlatch projected at least 1/2" wider that his jowl bones, this horse was conformationally unable to give a “proper” head set. His mouth was HARD, HARD, HARD, no give, no flexion of the jaw, his mouth felt like a bar of iron and my arm muscles would hurt after riding him.

I had stopped riding him. He was wasting away in the pasture and bringing in no income because he would bull his head down, run away, refuse to turn, invert at any use of the bit, etc., etc., etc… I actually asked to be put back on this horse–if I could use a double bridle on him.

My riding teacher agreed. I rode in the double bridle using only the bradoon for contact, if I needed to use the curb I just tweaked the sagging curb rein with my finger. I rode him with the Forward Seat methods of using the reins (no collection, no asking for collection.)

After the first ten minutes this usually defiant horse relaxed. He became light on the bit (remember I am not using the curb reins for contact.) When he felt doubt he started ASKING me to “explain” stuff better and he understood my rein actions much, much better.

It ended up that I could ride this erstwhile freight train going 100 MPH (not really, just felt like it) with fingertip control. He STOPPED trying to make me hold all the weight of his head and neck in my hands. We were able to do the three speeds of a gait exercise without any defiance, head slinging, iron jaws, etc…

He turned from a horse who made me want to tear my hair out to a horse that I could enjoy riding.

My riding teacher had taught me while I used a double bridle on horses without problems on a few of her horses. Those horses, who understood rein and leg aids did not have a total transformation, they just went marginally better. But THIS horse converted my riding teacher to me using the double bridle, THIS horse’s transformation was total and he even went better for other riders riding with just a snaffle when my riding teacher was short a horse and needed to use him.

The next time I get put up on a horse who just wants to lay on the bit and make his mouth hard I am going to bring out my double bridle and use it.

As far as you “not being a good enough rider to use the double” objection, well I have MS, very poor balance, I usually can’t really tell where my hands and legs are (thus the absolute need for a riding teacher for me), and horrible coordination. As for lessons, I did not have any lessons on using the double bridle, ever. I read books, I experimented, and I LISTENED to my horse. If my horse objected I was obviously using the double bridle wrong.

Nowadays I have to go through lengthy negotiations if I want to switch from the double bridle to a snaffle bridle. My riding teachers just prefer how their horses go when I ride them in a double bridle even though no one else at the stables ever uses one.

Flame suit on.

[red_mares]

One from another world that may work is a Simpson bit. It is almost impossible for a horse to grab hold of this thing. No matter where you pick it up, it collapses. It’s not an every day bit, but it will back them off the iron.

I laughed a bit at Jackie Cochran. I did the same thing with a hard mouth Morgan I leased. Those suckers can get HEAVY. The owner rode him in a giant latex wrapped snaffle that was almost useless. Back in the day, I learned to ride with a full bridle, at 10 or 12. It’s just how it was done. It wasn’t that hard. Heck, at some point, I didn’t know how to hold one pair of reins, it was completely foreign.

[strangewings]

Groundpole exercises could be a good choice in this case, with lots of loose forward trotting.

1. “Pick up sticks” - no patterns, just randomly strewn around. Walk and trot random loops over the poles. If they are close together, stick to walk. She will have to think about where she’s putting her feet, but it’s so different from what she’s used to it will hopefully take all of the prior performance pressure off her
2. Rehab exercises - the one my vet gave me for stifles basically used 4 ground poles or cavaletti on a large figure 8. If she can handle that mentally, it’s a good trot exercise.

[drop_shot]

This is also something that mine used to do. He got the change easily, but would anticipate it so badly. We stopped asking for flying changes all together for about a year and only did simple changes when jumping. It was a game changer. Instead of him anticipating the change and rushing it, he anticipates slowing down when coming out of a line or going into a corner and now will offer up a really relaxed change on his own.

Something that also helped us with this was holding the lead when going across the diagonal and continuing to counter canter through the short side. We didn’t start doing this until a few months after stopping flying changes, but it definitely helped reset his brain.

[Small_Change]

@red_mares

One from another world that may work is a Simpson bit. It is almost impossible for a horse to grab hold of this thing. No matter where you pick it up, it collapses. It’s not an every day bit, but it will back them off the iron.

Thanks for posting that! I have one hanging on the tack room wall, but have never known what to call it.

[Turntable]

This Stubben is the best bit I have every found for mares with small mouths. Super bit, instant transformation on small mouthed horses that are uncomfortable in a normal or rubber bit. Maybe size up a 1.4" on it if she has big lips. Be aware that they often sell another Stubben angled bit as the “anatomic” at tackstores but that one (the angles) is in a gold colored alloy and this one is in SS. It’s a good bit too but not for such a small mouth.

The problem I have had with the Mylers is that when the horse leans on them enough they turn into a mullen essentially and that can lead to a nasty reaction / running through the bit when you least expect it.

[Rumorhasit93]

Came here to also recommend a waterford. After a year and hundred of $$$$ that ended up being THE bit for my mare. I have a full cheek snaffle for flatting and a loose ring gag for jumping.

My horse sounds the exact same, but probably a bit more dull to the leg. But hot.

Good luck!

[foursocks]

This may not be the answer for you but my guy has a low palate/thick tongue, and he likes to be long and on his forehand, AND he hates thicks bits. I put a rubber mullen mouth on him once and he wouldn’t move forward. We also tried a double bridle once and he just kept going up and then refusing to move. (He’s a diva). However, he LOVES his Neue Schule Turtle Tactio loosering. He also loves a Herm Sprenger Duo, but he can hang on that, so we moved to theTactio and wow, what a difference. My trainer (who events) has put a number of her horses in the same bit, from her UL horses down to her baby who is a total firecracker and it seems to suit a variety of mouths.

Hah- I tried a Waterford on my current guy and it was the only time in his life he’s ever taken off. He was so angry about that bit that he decided to run away with me in the middle of a course at a show. He’s a jumper but he is also a firm believer in conserving energy where possible so this was very startling! (Again: diva). But, I’ve had success with that type on another jumper I had years ago who liked to be heavy in the hands, so who knows.

It’s tricky that she is reactive to the leg- that type is hard to get into the contact, for sure. I guess I might go to something very simple and lowkey in her mouth and lightly ask her to move into it until she accepts that it won’t be uncomfortable for her to engage with the contact. I had a very reactive but heavy-in-front jumper years ago who I had tried 30967 different bits on (it felt like that, anyway), and when I went to my first lesson with my new trainer he took everything off, put a French link loosering on, and we started over, with learning how to accept contact (and leg). That worked great, and I’ve always kept that in mind when I encounter horses who are heavy in the hands.

Hopefully you find something that works! Good luck!

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

Take a few dressage lessons from an event trainer who teaches beginning novice.

(I don’t mean to suggest that you are a beginner who doesn’t know what you are doing. Beginner novice in eventing or combined training still means a lot of is expected of the rider .)

This is not to say that your mare does not need a different bit. However, I think some lessons with a dressage instructor could help you with teaching you and your mare that you can trust each other.

There is a hunt seat Equitation instructor local to me that utilizes dressage in her warm ups.
She has her students perform twenty meter circles and lateral work like shoulder-fore.

(I started out in hunt seat Equitation, but switched to dressage. I don’t jump on purpose.)

[Tha_Ridge]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

There is a hunt seat Equitation instructor local to me that utilizes dressage in her warm ups.
She has her students perform twenty meter circles and lateral work like shoulder-fore.

The vast majority of good Hunter/Jumper trainers do the same. A significant portion of today’s lesson on my very broke jumper was spent on leg yields and 10-meter circles.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

It is good to hear that.
When I started taking lessons, my instructor was a very good instructor.
Her focus was more on teaching us how not to fall off and keep us from killing ourselves.

However, she really didn’t correct me when I needed it, and so I got into a lot of bad riding habits that it took me a long time to fix.

They weren’t dangerous , I rarely ever came off.
But just not desirable.

In learning dressage , I became a better rider, and thus a kinder rider. I hope that makes sense.

[kaya842]

The mare has been in part training with the best dressage trainer in the area (which is surprising due to the hard mouth but again I think that’s the result from several ammy riders). I have a lesson with said trainer Sunday am.

I picked up a Stubben Golden Wings loose ring from the consignment section of the tack store on the way to the barn today. I was looking for a HS KK Ultra which they usually have a ton of but only had the golden wings this time. I spent the ride just working her at the walk and a small bit of trot getting her to respond to my seat aids for downward transitions and for bend without it turning into a shoulder in or haunches in or something else. She seemed to really like the golden wings bit! Lots of happy mouth foam (but not chomping) and we ended the ride with a halt from the trot off of seat and not using the bridle which was a big win considering she wouldn’t even slow her walk a bit using my seat and voice by the end of yesterdays ride. They have a 4 in 1 gag golden wings at the tack shop too I’m thinking about grabbing for jumping since it’s all of $60.

I think more walk trot rides and low expectation rides and she will be so much better. She has SO much anxiety about riding in general. I think she’s just used to being worked hard/ asked a lot of every single time.

[red_mares]

My driving pony got heavy enough in harness that we just quit driving her for a while. She was going in a liverpool (shanked bit), but you better not forget the gloves and pimple grip reins. It was not fun for any of us.

She’s not nearly as strong under saddle for some reason.

A few weeks ago I started her back in long lines with a simple copper wrapped snaffle and a draw rein. We’ve done nothing but walk & very slow trots, in the barn. She’s back to going on a loose line at a walk. Another couple weeks, maybe after the last horse show of the year, we’ll try hooking her again.