Bit for Heavy Horse + Reschooling the Hard Mouth Horse

[grace61271]

My mare was like this when I first got her - way smarter and more knowledgeable than I was. She was being shown by her young amateur in the 1.25 m, but had done some bigger classes with a pro. When I got her she rooted so bad she’d literally pull me out of the saddle onto her neck, you could not touch her with your leg - literally rode with my lower leg off her side with visible space between my leg and her side. She had been ridden pretty heavy handed and legged and bullied around, she had a right to be angry and not want to be touched. It honestly took 3 years for me to learn to ride her and for her to finally trust me with her mouth and start having some say in things. Once I learned to ride her I figured out she could do 1 tempi changes, canter pirouettes, transitions from a full gallop to a 10 ft collected stride, lead changes on a circle, the best extended and collected trot I’ve ever sat, etc. with just my thoughts. I mean she was just absolutely amazing to ride both on the flat and jumping - I had flat rides where I’d get off with goosebumps. We bought her as a 1.2 m jumper and she took me to 1.45 m.

So anyway, what worked with her was time and patience and learning to be very still, soft, and correct in my body, put her in softer bits, and earn her trust and respect. It was tough in the beginning for sure, amd lots of people “bit up” horses like this but in a well schooled, sensitive horse, the heaviness is how they are telling us they are not happy and comfortable - this can be in their bodies but also in the equipment being used and how we are riding. We are often too loud for horses like this. I’d recommend a slightly thinner rubber or plastic, consider one with a double break or play around with a thinner mullen; the myler may be a good option, or the leather bit. Ride with your forearms as soft as possible and just repeat “melt like butter” in your head (or a similar mantra). It’s hard to be at the same time very still in your body and soft, without tension, but with time you get it. As far as exercises a lot of transitions can make these types hotter, absolutely do not do any lead changes for a while. Lots of circles and lateral work, mostly in the walk or trot. Also mix in loose rein rides where you don’t touch her, even if you have to stay in the walk at first. But also just spending a lot of time with her on the ground - grooming, grazing. Do a little natural horsemanship. If you have access hand walk her on trails. Once you get this mare on your side, she’ll do anything for you and teach you so much. Enjoy!

[meupatdoes]

I own this horse.

The only way to fix this issue once and for all is to forget about bit changes and go to some excellent dressage clinics.

Mine was also hot to the leg and hard in the mouth.
So Anne Gibbons told me pick up the contact and put leg on.
Did we porpoise around an Anne Gribbons clinic for 45 minutes, two days in a row? Yep.
Did he also learn that all of that protesting was a waste of time and it was easier to just accept his life and move on? Also yep.

Leif Aho had us turn, turn, turn. This sounds crazy, but turn 90 degrees, so he shoulders face a new way. WITHIN THE NEXT TWO STEPS turn the other 90 degrees, so her shoulders face the other way. Keep at at, making a full 90 degrees turn every two strides - every time she leans, TURN. She’s going to have to stop leaning on your hands. This gets them light on one rein at a time - eventually the goal is to turn less and less and just have them light going straight in between both. Leif can do this at all three gaits, I personally am not that coordinated so I stuck with walk and trot.

Lastly, Vera Kessels put us on 20 and 10 meter circles. Ride a 20 meter circle going left, in the middle of the arena. When you cross center line, ride a 10m circle to the right. When you get back to your 20m circle go left again. When you get to the wall, ride a 10m circle to the inside/left, then carry on on the big circle. when you get back to center line, 10m circle to the right. Etc. You can live in this exercise for a month.

Vera also had us do renvers during the circle exercises. Ride every curve in renvers. So, if you’re on a 20m circle going left, the haunches get sent to the outside of the circle from your left leg, and direct right rein bends the nose to the right (just enough to see the horses right eyelash, not more) and brings the shoulder to the inside of the circle. So yes, you’ll be on a circle going left, and your aids are left leg and right rein. It’s a mind fk, but it works: The way you sit in your hips is what holds the circle path, and then your hand and leg aids put the horse in renvers around that line.

Just doing this at the walk is tremendously helpful. My horse instantly wanted to brace his neck and giraffe and the answer is always to wait until he stops bracing (without escalating yourself) and then reward the release.

When she gets better on the 20m circle add in the 10s. Keep renvers both ways, so you’re switching from one renvers to the other.
Basically this forces both rider and horse to improve the inside leg to outside rein connection - now whenever mine braces or makes a mistake in the contact, I just ride a few steps of renvers and ta da! Problem solved.

Horses with bad habits in or a poor understanding of the contact can be difficult and frustrating to fix, because you basically need to have a fourth level understanding of contact yourself to teach the horse to do training level work correctly. They’ve learned and reinforced every wrong answer for years, so it’s not something you can reeducate in a day. You should be prepared to spend several weeks, if not a couple months, quietly doing very basic exercises like this to reeducate the horse essentially from scratch.

It’s incredibly helpful to go to dressage clinics with real, upper level clinicians because they zero in on problems with the basics like lasers, and also help you keep the faith that this porpoising that’s happening now, or all this insane turning, will all work out in the end.

My horse has tremendously improved with these simple, consistent, and methodical exercises. He came to me with a decade of ingrained bad habits and it was not fixed in a day, but now he does his walk warm up on the buckle without trotting off, his downward transitions happen from seat without having 80 lbs in my arms like German Helga, we can do our trot warmup in a “hunt frame” with a light contact, a long neck, and a swinging back, and everything is 1000 times more pleasant and harmonious.

The one thing I never did was change the bit.
He’s been in a $25 JP Korsteel loose ring double jointed snaffle this whole time.

[meupatdoes]

Every time I lay out my lead change teaching exercise on the dressage forum, someone pipes in that they learned that in a $$$$ clinic with some European dressage master.

Well, I learned it from lessons with a great hunter pro’s assistant trainer.

[EmilyM]

Sounds like lots of Good advice here. I will echo if the mouth is hard lots of transitions, lateral work, and less bit to flat.

I’ve started a lot of green horses with no natural softness to the mouth and also found figure eights to really help with them learning to soften their jaw. For older harder mouth ones lateral work and transitions.

Also have a great dentist take a peak in her mouth.

Good luck!

[foursocks]

That sounds really good! A friend uses the golden wings on her Prelim horse, even on cross country, who is reactive. Great update- it seems like you are well on your way to figuring her out and establishing a good connection.

[foursocks]

As a side note: I understand why people get defensive about the “HJ people don’t know dressage” comments, but there is, up to a point, foundation to them. There are a lot of great HJ trainers out there and there are probably more who don’t teach anything approaching even contact. I rode as a junior in one of the biggest show barns in the midwest, and learned only the basics of dressage because we didn’t really need more than that to win in the hunter ring. Riding in a half seat with your horse’s nose poked out and basically zero contact on a long rein is a different ride, with different use of the aids, than dressage needs.

We even do lead changes differently in the hunters, both in how we ask and how they are executed by the horse, something it took me years to truly understand. Jumpers is different, but even there one can get away with much less dressage education up to a certain level. In big eq. the horses themselves are very well educated, although I think as riders we learn other movements differently, too, like turn on the haunches, and there really isn’t much use of the seat as an aid.

I think dressage is good for every horse and every rider, in principle, but your average hunter rider and horse doesn’t need to know or use the vast majority of things past first level, if that. And I would argue that most hunter trainers aren’t teaching it, or know it themselves, because of the same reason.

[punchy]

@kaya842

I think more walk trot rides and low expectation rides and she will be so much better. She has SO much anxiety about riding in general. I think she’s just used to being worked hard/ asked a lot of every single time.

This sounds good to me. A thought I had while reading your posts is that some horses get hard mouthed from a kind of sourness, and you just need to change the conversation and freshen things up. So I would avoid drilling a lot of downward transitions. There is likely a nice soft mouth there already, you just have to get her in a good mental place to open that pathway up again.

[Warmblood1]

I’m another fan of the Waterford. They can’t brace against it.

I also hunted a sometimes heavy horse with a previous history of bolting in a double bridle for first flight foxhunting. Worked primarily off the snaffle but had the curb for “oh shit” moments. He went regularly in a snaffle and was normally quite lazy but would get amped in the field. We survived.

[Tha_Ridge]

@foursocks

Riding in a half seat with your horse’s nose poked out and basically zero contact on a long rein is a different ride, with different use of the aids, than dressage needs.

But the truly top-class hunters get to that point through a lot of work that would be considered very correct, traditional lower-level dressage. You don’t get to float the rein and kick by just, well, floating the rein and kicking.

[AAHunterGal]

I like the Waterford idea, too.

A type of bit that I would add to the already great list is a beval bit.

This gives just a TOUCH of leverage, and you can also just put the rein on the larger loop to take even that effect away. I use one with a french link on my mare and she goes great in it for both jumping and flatwork (though we show in a full cheek).

[meupatdoes]

@Tha_Ridge

@foursocks

different use of the aids, than dressage needs.

But the truly top-class hunters get to that point through a lot of work that would be considered very correct, traditional lower-level dressage. You don’t get to float the rein and kick by just, well, floating the rein and kicking.

Exactly.
The hunter pros at the top with the $$$$$ horses put some serious flatwork on the horses.

My horse (I am no where near the top, lol, but I trained with people who were) got me my bronze medal in dressage and scored 8’s on his changes in his (and my!) first ever rated dressage show.
We were also selected by Jane Savoie to demo ride lead changes in her teaching symposium at Gladstone.
Then he sold to hunter land for $$$.

A correct change is a correct change.
There is no “difference”.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

It’s good you are willing to keep an open mind and try something different.

Riders who pump the gas and slam on the brakes at the same time tend to create a definite lack of merriment in their horse.

Eventually she will learn that she won’t be punished for going forward.

Patience , patience and more patience is the name of the game. And consistency.

[Turntable]

@foursocks

As a side note: I understand why people get defensive about the “HJ people don’t know dressage” comments, but there is, up to a point, foundation to them.

You can walk into a hunter/ jumper barn, see the same weak topline on every horse there and know they are not riding them over their backs and that there is no true understanding of dressage. It’s as simple as that.

Dressage is not about learning a few moves or going quietly on a long rein, it is about developing the strength and moving towards self carriage and true collection.

[kaya842]

Update - she has improved greatly, at least at home, since coming home to me. She is SO much softer and overall much more relaxed, though she has a way to go.

I currently have her in the Stubben Anatomical Loose Ring as I didn’t like the way the wings on the golden wings would dip in toward her face. She doesn’t seem to love the anatomical but is softer in it than the golden wings (despite there being little difference between the two). And so I continue bit shopping I really want to try out a Fager titanium but am having trouble deciding on which mouthpiece (and am eyeing the loose ring baucher cheek piece). I may be chasing a unicorn bit as she doesn’t seem overly opinionated on them but it’s only money and I think all the different types of bits are pretty interesting.

[Jackie_Cochran]

@kaya842, I wish I could give you some information from personal experience.

I have quite a few Fager bits. I ride in a double bridle with the Fager Victoria Mullen mouth Weymouth (no longer made) and the Alicia fixed ring bradoon. My snaffle Fager collection has several bits. The one that seems to work best with MY hands is the Fager Bianca fixed ring. My second favorite is the Fager Alexander sweet iron loose ring snaffle.

When they came out with the Wilma, the 5-piece mouthpiece, their Waterford snaffle equivalent I was entranced. I bought the loose ring one, took it out to both stables where it got admired, showed it to the horses, then nothing. The mare who will cuss me out quickly if she does not like a bit–well her owner is out of commission from a botched surgery. My lesson stable? My teacher seems to like watching me ride her lesson horse with the double bridle. Maybe when it gets cooler I’ll bring it up again.

Fager just came out with a Wilma with the Baucher side piece, loose or fixed ring. I am entranced, but I don’t NEED such a bit right now. Neither horse I ride now has a hard mouth and the double bridle has answered all my needs.

Happy searching! May you pick your perfect bit the first time from Fager, otherwise it can end up being expensive especially since they do not take returns. These bits are worth their price, the problem is choosing the one that is exactly right for your hands and the horse’s mouth.

[ltmac]

Unlike your mare, my guy is neither heavy nor does he have a hard mouth but he can get strong, but he’s quite sensitive. For situations when he gets strong and I feel the need to bit up, such as jumping and gallops, I usually use the Eggbutt Bomber Blue bit. I would also recommend looking into the Bombers bits and consulting their specialist because she was very helpful! Also, I recently starting using the double-jointed loose ring HS Novocontact bit and really like how he goes in it.

I agree with the general consensus that flatwork improvements will help. I also recommend trying in-hand work. But my best suggestion would be to hack out as much as possible, especially somewhere with hills and varied ground. Can you tell that I’m an eventer?

[meupatdoes]

You can walk into plenty of lower level dressage barns and see the same thing.

Lots of people roll into clinics claiming to “need help on lead changes” and then aren’t even doing first level work in their first trot circle.

And don’t even get me started on the training level Olympics that is the Klassikal folks. They’d be the first to sh*t on the hunters while not being able to ride an actual first level test themselves.

As for “going quietly on a long rein” I was recently at a clinic where an “I-1 horse” appeared before an international clinician and was too vertuzt to trot a 20m circle. The first thing the clinician advised when the rider was finally receptive was to put the PiPa tour away for now and ride 20m trot circles.
So, neglect quietly forward on a long rein at your peril. It is the most basic building block of everything else.

[meupatdoes]

You can walk into a lot of dressage barns/shows and see this being called second level:

Harvest Moon Dressage 11-14-09 Bingo Helen 2nd Level Test 3

(ETA: I’m not trying to shit all over this rider, as she’s riding kindly, accurately, and doing her best. However, let’s not act like everyone riding 2nd/3rd level in a dressage barn is doing so with proper connection. If you’re at WEF and everyone in the barn is doing 4th Level+ and scoring high 60’s, okey dokey, that’s a high level barn. But let’s be real: at regular dressage barns “working correctly over the back” is a challenge for dressage riders, too.)

Meanwhile here’s an entire class of adult amateur hunters ages 51+:

Thursday Outdoor Class 80 Adult Amateur Hunter 51 & Over

95% of the people who sh*t all over the hunters are lower level amateurs who would wet themselves if they had to sit a real extended trot, much less canter forward enough to make the step.

[DMK]

I do different disciplines but I faced many of your challenges, and my pony had many many opinions about 3 piece bits, none of them good. He was moderately not awful in a stubben ez control (3 piece, but locks if they brace) in ridden dressage but I was running out of options in driven dressage. He’s a forward minded pony. He’s a fjord. Carrying himself is hard and if I can’t carry my fair share* his response is to goforwardfast. Also, wait until the bell rings and immediately put tongue over the bit (only in driven dressage, because it’s more fun to not fix it yourself but have an FEI vet and TD frantically sticking their hands down a very determined fjord’s throat).

*Fair share in fjordland is defined as “this is your stupid idea, YOU can hold up this head and neck, I just want to run hazards fast”

I stumbled on to a driving bit called a Bowman ultimate tongue relief and it seemed to help. It’s basically a freely rotating Conrad style mouthpiece (big square forward angle port) so they can put the port where it’s most comfortable on the tongue. From there I added a Conrad curb to the full bridle (neue schule verbindunwhatever for bradoon). But I was still in a Very Unhappy place for ridden dressage competition, in the ez control snaffle. OBVIOUSLY it was the bit, the pony was a radically different (better) pony in a Conrad mouthpiece and there were Conrad style loose rings out there, but he’s a 6" mouth so nothing would be quick or easy… Or affordable because I was more than a little sick of dumping $300 into another failed bit experiment.

When you have to buy driving bits you find every ginormous bit warehouse in Europe, so that was my both my blessing and my curse, and I finally found reasonable price meets right mouthpiece: the bomber blue tongue relief bit. I got the bomber blue straight tongue relief because it was listed in usdf as legal (or more accurately, “tongue relief” was listed as legal but the pic was the straight version so I erred on the side of caution).

He has NEVER been so light and happy as he is in this mouthpiece and I found a place in TN that carries them (most bombers - there are so many we don’t see in US catalogs - are custom built upon order) so it was $100+ total. I’ll probably try the true tongue relief at some point, it’s a bit like a forward v shape whereas the straight tongue relief it’s basically a square port, so more bit lies on the bars.

[NaturallyHappy]

Who carrys this bit in TN? Thank you.