Bitless option for horse that crowhops/plays

[fivestrideline]

So the answer to this may be “none” but I’m considering a new bitless setup for my horse while I try to find a bit he likes. Teeth have been done, saddle was just refitted, I’ll likely have the bit and bridle fitter out next.

In the meantime, I have had him in a flat leather side pull with good results re: the head tilt/unhappiness he has in a bit. However, his go-to fresh/play response is to shove his head between his knees and crow hop around. It’s really very benign but the side pull becomes basically useless when he does this. He is a good egg but definitely knows he could elect to lock up and ignore the side pull if he really wanted. I ride mostly in a field or on trails so I do need some emergency stopping power.

I’ve been wondering if there is another bitless option that would let us do some basic schooling and fitness work while I fiddle with bits, that would still offer some emergency stopping power and get his head up if needed?

Maybe a rope halter - is there a significant difference between clipping the reins to the chin loops vs the sides? He respects the rope halter more than a flat leather one on the ground, which is why I thought maybe it would be an option.

I’ve also looked at the flower hackamores or a little S, but have no personal experience with either. I’ve had a short shanked mechanical hack, but that horse already had bulletproof steering off the seat and leg vs this one who still is learning.

Ideas?

ETA: I can double rein off a bit + side pull, but I was hoping to find something I didn’t need to do that with. Call me lazy, but hoof boots + brushing boots + double rein bridle + riding fly mask + spurs/whip + gloves + vest/helmet/boots/chaps = so much stuff to put on/take off and clean . Why one more rein is my tipping point I don’t know. But I’ll do it if I have to!

[Training_Cupid]

There are rope halters that have rings you can attach reins too, though I haven’t tried it:

Tough-1 Rope Halter / Side Pull Combo

[fivestrideline]

I’ve seen these! I wonder if the action is different clipped to the sides vs the chin… I guess a “bosal” style vs a side pull? But more bite than flat leather either way, I’d guess.

[endlessclimb]

Honestly I’d just keep him in a bit. If it fits reasonably well and you aren’t asking for actual work, there’s no reason he can’t “pack” a bit. Just skip the higher level work until you get the bit fitter out.

[fivestrideline]

You’re probably right…

It’s just the moment you pick up the reins - not contact just steady, light feel - he goes into a chomp fest + twists his head left. It’s supremely disruptive, but we are hoping it’s just green + unfit + low palate + my limited bit box.

I really wanted to have a bitless option since he’s much happier that way - I do subscribe to ignoring the front end while pushing the hind end up underneath, but it’s been a while since I’ve had one with the head twist. Makes it really hard to keep an even, light feel, but he does seem to need his hand held a little or he starts looking for things to spook at .

Maybe that shows some holes in my skill set. Or maybe he has hyoid arthritis and will never be rideable except bridleless (the current Zebra I’ve been told to look into, which I’ve elected to file away for later worry sessions ).

[Bonnie2]

Dr Cook’s bitless bridle has an X under the jaw that the reins attach to. I don’t know if that would help or hinder when he plays. It is a little more convincing when they get strong. Haven’t had luck with the flower hackamore. It looks like a great idea but I just can’t quite get it fit to my satisfaction. My current favorite is just a hybrid halter (regular flat halter with a rope nose with two knots) fitted up a bit tighter than for normal use. But my horse has as close to zero buck as horses get!

[beowulf]

What bits have you tried, when is he doing the crowhopping behavior? It sounds like there are two different behaviors you’re encountering, maybe they are related but possibly not.

It took me forever to realize with one of my horses who “partied” into the canter transition, that the partying didn’t happen if I firmly – and I mean FIRMLY – held the outside rein, with way more weight than I prefer. The behavior developing was my own dang fault. I have a few riding flaws, but one of them is that I try to be as quiet as possible with my aids, sometimes at the expense of my effectiveness. Keeping that outside rein taut cut the behavior out completely, and over time I was able to dial back the weight in the rein. Not saying it is rider error in your case, but maybe you can play around with the aids and see what stops the behavior and what makes it worse.

The one drawback with any sidepull or hackamore is once the head is between the legs, you have almost no power. A grab strap is good for those moments, and maybe a good pony club kick to get their head back up and in control.

I like my La Cense side pull. I’m not sure I would buy it new again because the leather quality is meh, but the design itself is great; it has a rope noseband, but sidepull attachment. It’s got more bite to it than a traditional side pull, but not the mechanical pressure a hackamore applies, which is too much for my sensitive nosed horses.

I sympathize, I’m on my own interesting bit journey with a mare - she’s starting to feel like Goldilocks, I’m hoping for that “just right” bit.

I ordered this bit, I think it’s as close as you can get to inoffensive for something fundamentally invasive in your mouth:
https://www.doversaddlery.com/acavallo-sensitive-bit/p/X1-010963/

[fivestrideline]

Crow hop happens bitless too, just trotting around if I’m asking him to do something hard like Get Off My Left Leg or Turn Right and he’s feeling fresh and sassy (in his defense, he’s been barely worked due to the weather and he’s grown). We only walk/trot right now.

I’ve tried him in a plain single joint D, double joint with a bean, rope mouthpiece, Waterford, and the current Mullen with a really low port (Centaur makes it). My fitter says he has a low palate and seems to want tongue relief (I agree), but he is twisting and chomping on everything. I feel as if the Waterford may have had less twisting, but he was going to town on it chewing. I also tried a Myler Level 2 that’s way too large for him but he didn’t chomp on that as much, despite it being .5" too large. The head twisting happens the moment you touch his face, maybe slightly less when he’s having to really power uphill (and then it’s his head is a little lower but still tilted left).

My fitter suggested the Fager Mattias to try if I wanted to just grab something. This guy raced in a tongue tie and is generally pretty mouthy.

[endlessclimb]

I mean, putting your leg on with no hold at all up front is going to make a strung out horse.

I’d take a light contact. A lot of horses off the track fuss with the bit, it’s just a matter of staying steady and persistent.

[beowulf]

Yes, fussiness with the mouth is normal in the young OTTBs, it’s tension, them working thru their new job, sometimes some residual soreness and/or a physical issue they just need time to recover from post track.

If you see one cheap nearby, might be worth trying a Happy Mouth Mullen with the raised arch - it’s dressage legal. I see them cheap every now in then, if he’s best in the mullen with the low port he might like it. The rubber seems to make my sensitive horses less defensive of contact.

[fivestrideline]

@endlessclimb

I mean, putting your leg on with no hold at all up front is going to make a strung out horse.

Absolutely. I meant ignoring the fact that the head/neck is all over the place . My particular struggle is keeping a consistent contact while he goes around cattywompus. I’m working on it.

@beowulf

Yes, fussiness with the mouth is normal in the young OTTBs, it’s tension, them working thru their new job, sometimes some residual soreness and/or a physical issue they just need time to recover from post track.

Thank you for this. I know it’s normal - I’ve just gone down so many rabbit holes with the other creature that I worry.

I’ll keep my eyes open for the happy mouth!

[fivestrideline]

@Bonnie2

Dr Cook’s bitless bridle has an X under the jaw that the reins attach to

I’ve always felt like these don’t release the pressure fast enough. But definitely they have more power!

I have a friend who tried foxhunting in a flower hackamore - her horse is much farther along but in her opinion it was no good for any real I Said No situations. My horse is very lazy and honest, but we do still have some racehorse athleticism in there. I don’t need him learning he can just bully through things.

[big_red_thoroughbreds]

A rope halter works great but I significantly prefer reins attached to the chin than the sides, I think the action is weird on the sides and it twists into their eye easily. I have a couple bosals now but before I did I would ride all my greenies in a rope halter for quite a while once they learned steering in a snaffle until they were consistently light in the hand, to avoid having to make major corrections or grab their face with a bit. It’s great for stopping, great for bumping their head up when they try to put it between their knees, but not a lot of finesse in steering so you’ll have to be able to steer mostly off the leg.

Flower hacks basically ride like a side pull plus a little more oomph to pick their head up so that might work well for you. They definitely noticeably discourage leaning but if you put your hand under the noseband and engage the rein you can feel they apply very little leverage, you could easily apply as much pressure by pulling moderately hard on a flat halter (the wheel or the regular flower cheeks anyways, I’ve never tried the ones with the stacked rings). Anything with more leverage like a mechanical hack, a little s, et cetera is in my opinion too much for a horse that you regularly have to take ahold of, only good for a horse educated enough to use a shanked bit. Unpopular opinion but I hate the dr cook’s because there are so many moving parts I feel like they are not stable enough to release and leave the horse alone. Bosals and by extension rigid nose loping hackamores are great but basically the same as a rope halter to tootle around in unless you are using them specifically to teach self carriage, are kind of annoying to fit, and easier to rub/bruise their nose with if you have a bucking bronco incident and have to drag their head up lol.

[fivestrideline]

Wow thanks for this! (Also, love your username - I’ve had 3 big red TBs and they’re the best ).

I have a rope halter so I may try that in the paddock next time. His steering has gotten so much better, but I joke that we are lacking “power steering” still - if we are going downhill towards his buddies on his bad direction he can be a bit of a bull to turn still .

I’d like him in a bit since hunters are the plan, but it’s always a work in progress lol

[big_red_thoroughbreds]

Good luck! I think some time bitless while they are green and working through anxiety/reactiveness is really helpful and makes them WAY less likely to end up anxious about bit contact or expressing anxiety through bit related habits like chomping, hanging their tongue, etc which I find deeply frustrating to try and fix later on. So I hope it works for you!

One nuance with the rope halter, if you do put the reins under the chin, make sure the noseband isn’t so loose on him that when he tucks his head the v where the reins are attached hits his neck and you are pulling on his neck instead of the bridle. Maybe super obvious but a way-too-big rope halter on a haflinger with a bolting problem did nearly send me to an early grave once.

[fivestrideline]

@big_red_thoroughbreds

le. Maybe super obvious but a way-too-big rope halter on a haflinger with a bolting problem did nearly send me to an early grave once.

that sounds terrifying! Noted. Luckily I have a few sizes to choose from so I should be able to remedy that!

That’s really my hope - if I can have the option to go bitless until I find something he likes and we can get him fitter, I’d like to. And it’s nice as an option in general!

[Arelle]

Unpopular (in the H/J world) opinion - but I leave my babies/young ones tied in a headstall with a bit for a couple of hours a few times a week.

I’ve had a few over the years that just struggle with the concept of a bit in their mouth. And they’re so preoccupied with it under saddle that they’re not actually learning much, so our time is being wasted.

Instead, when I’m in the barn doing chores - cleaning stalls, cleaning tack, whatever - I’ll put a simple headstall with a simple snaffle on them (over their halter) in their stall. I’ll tie them to the wall (by their halter!) and I’ll just let them stand there with the bit. They’ll chew, they’ll fuss, I’ve had some throw downright toddler tantrums… but eventually, they realize that it’s just a part of life and no matter how much nonsense they try to pull or how hard they fling their head around - the bit isn’t going anywhere. The upside of this is - I’m not pulling on their face, there’s no pressure being exerted, I’m not asking them to also coordinate their legs at the same time - they’re literally just learning to live with something in their mouth. When they’re standing quiet (ideally, snoozing), I’ll go in - untie, unbridle, and leave them be.

[beowulf]

@Arelle

Unpopular (in the H/J world) opinion - but I leave my babies/young ones tied in a headstall with a bit for a couple of hours a few times a week.

I’ve had a few over the years that just struggle with the concept of a bit in their mouth. And they’re so preoccupied with it under saddle that they’re not actually learning much, so our time is being wasted.

Instead, when I’m in the barn doing chores - cleaning stalls, cleaning tack, whatever - I’ll put a simple headstall with a simple snaffle on them (over their halter) in their stall. I’ll tie them to the wall (by their halter!) and I’ll just let them stand there with the bit. They’ll chew, they’ll fuss, I’ve had some throw downright toddler tantrums… but eventually, they realize that it’s just a part of life and no matter how much nonsense they try to pull or how hard they fling their head around - the bit isn’t going anywhere. The upside of this is - I’m not pulling on their face, there’s no pressure being exerted, I’m not asking them to also coordinate their legs at the same time - they’re literally just learning to live with something in their mouth. When they’re standing quiet (ideally, snoozing), I’ll go in - untie, unbridle, and leave them be.

I was taught this decades ago, and my first barn was an HJ barn. I’ve started all my horses this way, but a little different - they get turned out. It’s not as safe as being tied in a stall, I will admit that - but my horses are at home and I can watch them closely while I do other chores… And they learn that the bit is just another part of life.

[fivestrideline]

I do this too! This guy is totally fine with the bit until there is contact on it, which he wasn’t when he first got here. He used to chew/paw/flap his lips in the cross ties but most of that has gone away, thankfully. It’s why we have decided the under saddle champing/twisting is likely discomfort + anxiety about the job at hand (vs an injury or something worse, for example), since things are settling down in the rest of his life.

[Posting_Trot]

You probably just don’t have enough expensive bits in your collection!

Have you tried a baucher? I had a very fussy-mouthed TB mare (she wasn’t off the track, but she had an attitude) who preferred the baucher above all bits and above bitless. It was a KK Ultra B ring baucher, which I’m not sure they market in this country anymore, and it’s probably considered unconventional, but at some point I just didn’t care.

The other bit that she liked (for a while) was the HS Duo mullen mouth.