Black Country Saddle - RESOLVED

[mvp]

@BadEventer;5377393

The problem is the billets are attached in an “un-anatomical” fashion. They point forward instead of down. Because this is a monoflap correcting that is a matter of redoing the ENTIRE flap as well as the billets because the flap has “channels” for the billets to lie in.

I know exactly where the mistake was made in the construction. I have a very long upper leg, and requested a more forward flap to accomodate my freakishly long thighs. When they moved the flap forward they actually “tilted” the flap forward along with the billets, instead of moving the flap forward and keeping the billets in a more normal position.

This means on the horse I ordered the saddle for, the billets point forward at an extreme angle. When the girth is attached it lifts the back of the saddle off of her back. This really is simple physics. If you compare the saddle I received to the photo of the Event saddle on Bob’s website the difference is very obvious.

My horse is somewhat downhill where the saddle sits. This also means if I put the saddle on any other horse, the front of the saddle is even higher & the billets are even MORE of a problem because they point towards their nose. The incorrect attachment of the billets has made this saddle essentially unusable on ANY horse, not just the one it was supposed to be made for.

I see the “engineering problem” you are talking about. Watching from my saddling armchair, this does sound like a design problem on BC’s end. They probably needed to rethink- and recut the flap for your freak-long femur. No, you can’t just build an extra long flap, move it foward and then attach the billets to the tree at whatever angle you’d like to make them fit into the flap’s dedicated channels— and be surprised when they “send” the billets forward not close to the vertical.

It sounds like they may not have attached the billets especially far back on the tree in general. That same point may be relatively far back given the balance point of this long/forward flapped saddle on your mare’s back.

Maybe I should get out of my armchair and come help you Texans with your BC saddles. I believe in the company and I think I could do a better, more “engineering” type job than this.

[jackalini]

BadEventer, I’m so sorry this happened to you.

[purplnurpl]

this does stink.
I sent you a PM.

Looks like the billets are on the same angle as this BC.
http://www.farmhousetack.com/servlet/the-1521/Black-Country-Vinici-Advance/Detail

all I will add is, I’ve never liked the saddles and I find that they bridge or rock.
Now that Mike doesn’t work directly with them I would not touch them with a ten foot pole.

As for Bob Cooper.
I was talking to him one time while he was fitting a saddle for someone and I told him that my new horse hates the wide weight bearing panels and rides best in the banana shape.
He told me that the weight bearing surface was the same on a wide panel as on an up swept panel.
ARFKM?
take out your kindergarten ruler and measure the contact surface per square inch, Bob.
I try to stay away from people that lack common sense. :rolleyes:

I’m freakish in the thigh and I just deal with it.
One of my prestige has an extra inch all the way around. It’s an CL. They come up to XXL. I guess that is an extra three inches?

[mg]

Well the reply on their Facebook page looks as though they are eager to resolve this issue. I look forward to hearing how things progress from here. I hope your saddle issues are resolved and you are left satisfied. What a huge bummer to drop the time and money on a custom saddle and receive this disappointment instead

[jn4jenny]

[QUOTE=purplnurpl;5378746]
this does stink.
I sent you a PM.

Looks like the billets are on the same angle as this BC.
http://www.farmhousetack.com/servlet/the-1521/Black-Country-Vinici-Advance/Detail[/QUOTE]

If you look closely, this whole saddle has been pictured at an angle. If you tilt the whole saddle until it would theoretically be lying flush on the horse’s back, the billet angle would still be way less extreme than the ones on BadEventer’s botched saddle.

all I will add is, I’ve never liked the saddles and I find that they bridge or rock.

Depends on which tree they put in the saddle. A friend of mine had a custom Vinici Tex Eventer that was flat as a pancake, and when I examined it, that was clearly because of the tree and not because they had jiggered with the panels.

The off-the-rack Vinici Tex Eventer and BC Quantum are definitely quite curvy, though–similar to Stubben or most of the Amerigos in that regard.

Bob Cooper sounds like a real winner. :mad: I bought my BC back in the days of Kim Peterson and she was great, very honest and didn’t sugar-coat about what the brand could and couldn’t do to fit a horse.

[Badger]

Good to see on Facebook that they are not arguing at all with the fit and quality issues and they want to make you a new saddle that does work. Please keep us posted as all this plays out.

From FB:

“I have sent you a detailed reply to your email but for the information of everyone else here, Bob did alert us immediately regarding the issues but time differences and weekends have caused the delay and we are now in the process of hopefully rectifying this hopefully. No doubts to the quality and fit issues and we certainly hope to make a new saddle for you.”

and

" Just for the record we are embarassed about the quality of the finish on this saddle, the fit however is very unfortunate and sadly not every custom saddle fits perfectly first time, often revisits and tweaks are needed and we are hoping to be able to put this right for Laura with a new saddle. We do pride ourselves on quality and customer service, issues like this are sometimes inevitable but thankfully very rare, hopefully some of the more positive comments on both here and other forums help to address the balance. If you want any further information please feel free to email me - Nikki"

Sounds like, now that the weekend is over and they’ve had 1/2 a Monday in the UK office to look into things, the company is being responsive.

[BadEventer]

RESOLVED.

Bob & Nikki have both contacted me and agreed the quality on this saddle was poor, and it did not fit my horse. They offered a full refund or to make me an entirely new saddle.

I requested the refund.

I am grateful for this response, and consider the matter well resolved (assuming I get the refund :-))

Nikki stated this about the poor workmanship,

“The uneven finish around the blocks - we totally agree with you that this is not satisfactory and not representative of the quality of our saddles, we are embarrassed to see that this left our factory like this.”

I imagine there will be some quality control changes after this.

I appreciate them taking responsibility and correcting this as well as possible at this time.

[Kitt]

Stepping in late here, but I will reiterate that this sort of quality isn’t representative of the BC saddles. We’ve carried them (and I’ve worked on them) for years, and it’s very, very rare that anything does get by their QC. However, mistakes do happen. That said, we’ve also found that if there is an issue, or if the customer is less than happy, BC will step up to the plate, take responsibility, and do what they can to resolve things … and that, I will tell you, is becoming less and less common in the saddle world.

[MattMan]

Glad everything was resolved… I figured it would be from my dealings with BC… I have always been happy with their Customer Service. I hate that you had this experience with them, I’ve been on tons of different saddles and they have been the best by far. You might still check out http://www.mikecorcoransaddlery.com/ Maybe since he is in Texas, it will not take as long to get your new custom built.

Matt

[fordtraktor]

Glad to hear they resolved your problem, BadEventer. Mistakes do happen, and while it sucks it is OK as long as the company steps up to the plate as Black Country has done.

Good form, Black Country!

[jackalini]

So glad to hear this, sounds like BC HQ wanted to do the right thing.

I do want to see what you end up with now, b/c I am also shopping around for a saddle that is EXTRA forward and long in the flap but without the balance point moved forward.

[mythical84]

I’m so glad that your issue was resolved. I knew that BCS would step up and make the situation right.

Just a side note, I know several people that have ordered custom saddles (both BCS and other brands) and rarely do they fit “right out of the box.” Mine in particular took a few fittings with minor adjustments over the first few months as things settled and my horse’s back changing in response to the new (and improved!) saddle.

[alto]

Honestly, a full refund is the minimum the company should be doing - the customer is out much more than the $3500 that BC has had in their possesion for the last 5-6weeks.

This saddle is a travesty - how many people handled that saddle over the weeks & passed it on despite glaring quality issues - were they hoping the client was blind? (that really seems the only explanation for attempting to fob off such a poor construct) or what?
Did they expect that the company rep would also ignore the condition of the saddle as well when it came to fitting?

BC needs to do alot more than offer a refund! how about a demo saddle - delivered within 2 weeks (as it seems a custom manufacture is required) - to use until the client receives a new saddle? (custom ordered from someone other than BC should the client choose)

The rep could’ve reassured the client that BC would sort this out (even if he was waiting on a call back from BC UK), BC UK could’ve acknowledged the situation by Friday even if they were still trying to sort out details …

I looked at BC saddles this fall as we’ll need a custom fit for FP & the kid: if BC had responded differently to this client, I’d still be considering their saddle - mistakes happen, it’s how resolution/restitution is offered that determines a company’s worth - for this company to consider a mere refund offer sufficient when they are guilty of a colossal screw up :no: :no: :no:

[Jeito]

I’m glad the issue was resolved. I love my Black Country dressage saddle but don’t want to deal again with the temperamental rep who sold it to me. I do think BC could do a better job of screening their reps. When I need adjustments, I think I’ll have to send it to Trumbull.

Alto, I think you’re being a little harsh. I had a Custom Saddlery saddle that never worked for my horse. It was never “made right,” and I ended up losing a lot of money. Yet I know CS has an excellent reputation and many loyal clients, and I’ll assume my experience was the exception. I’ve also heard of bad experiences with County and Schleese.

[Eventer55]

I’ll second or third the good word for Mike Corcoran. I ride in one of his Master saddles and love it.

[Kitt]

IMO, Nikki / Black Country handled this very well. Hats off to a company that will step up and take responsibility for a mistake, and do what they can to make it right.

[shamrocker]

I too have very good things to say about Black Country, and their customer service in the UK. I also have great things to say about E. Jeffries who made me a larger browband for my elevator bridle, no charge since the OS they stock was rubbing her, they had it to me within a week, and now all things are good!

I think custom saddles are very tricky, easier to get one off the shelf that fits reasonably well and work from there. Success rate of custom is too random for it’s cost!

[purplnurpl]

@MattMan;5378945

Glad everything was resolved… I figured it would be from my dealings with BC… I have always been happy with their Customer Service. I hate that you had this experience with them, I’ve been on tons of different saddles and they have been the best by far. You might still check out http://www.mikecorcoransaddlery.com/ Maybe since he is in Texas, it will not take as long to get your new custom built.

Matt

oh yum.
loving the J1

[sadlmakr]

I am so glad to hear your problem has been resolved.
I was so worried about your getting stuck with a saddle that didn’t fit you or your horses.
I would not buy a saddle sight unseen from now on. I would get one I could see and feel and fit to your horse.
I am relieved though.
Keep on riding .
Kind regards, sadlmakr

[alto]

[QUOTE=Discobold;5380745]

Alto, I think you’re being a little harsh. I had a Custom Saddlery saddle that never worked for my horse. It was never “made right,” and I ended up losing a lot of money. Yet I know CS has an excellent reputation and many loyal clients, and I’ll assume my experience was the exception. I’ve also heard of bad experiences with County and Schleese.[/QUOTE]

If this saddle simply did not fit, I’d have have no issues with BC; what’s unacceptable is that this saddle was passed though all the levels of saddle manufacture in their factory, was stamped with the SMS logo (ie passed manufacture standard as set by SMS), was stamped with the BC logo (ie passed manufacture standard as set by BC), was checked that it matched the design parametres of the custom order, was checked before packing, was packed & shipped, was received by their local BCS specialist, inspected once again & deemed ACCEPTABLE to Black Country’s standard of saddle manufacture - and when the client cried FOUL & included photographic evidence, no response was forthcoming until client posted on BC’s Facebook page.

Nikki stated this about the poor workmanship,

“The uneven finish around the blocks - we totally agree with you that this is not satisfactory and not representative of the quality of our saddles, we are embarrassed to see that this left our factory like this.”

This might be a reasonable response if the saddle had at least come CLOSE to fitting, but for a made to measure saddle to neither fit the horse (it was custom made for based upon templates prepared by a trained BCS specialist) nor meet basic quality standards of British saddle manufacture …

The following are all direct quotes from Black Country Saddle website - where does this saddle lie within the quoted parametres???

[I]Welcome to Black Country Saddles
With more than 70 years of combined experience as Master Saddlers __ have made the name of Black Country Saddles synonymous with innovation and quality

Extensive knowledge and understanding of saddle manufacture

best possible combination of fit for both horse and rider.

committed to providing you with the best possible product

have declined the mass production

skilled craftsmanship

We specialize in custom built saddles

the majority of the saddles we make here are to order – for a specific client and horse.

offer a saddle assessment as well as the all important aftercare service

It is in the interest of their reputation as a BCS specialist to ensure the best possible combination of fit for both horse and rider.

Your saddle fitter will be able to establish the correct tree “frame work” and panel for your horse on which to build your saddle. Then for you the rider any alterations regarding flap length, blocks will be discussed and finally a choice of leather finishes and colours to choose from.

details along with the templates are sent to the factory and discussions on any particular requirements[/I]

And perhaps most damning of all

We like to think of each Vinici as a blank canvas and create individuality like a work of art – each one a masterpiece. There is no expense spared on a Vinici only the finest leathers are chosen to create the most comfortable, luxurious and stylish saddle you can imagine.

of what is the debated saddle a “masterpiece”