Bloodlines in regards to dressage and dressage breeding

[nhwr]

Sorry Oakstable. I am going to disagree with you about Jazz.

Most of the Jazz offspring I have ridden were beautifully conformed, nice movers but quite crazy (3 - 5 years ago).

My friends in the Netherlands said that his breedings really fell off a few years ago and that people were quite selective about the type ofmares to bring to him.

Haven’t seen many lately. But maybe they are have better luck with him this way.

[mickeydoodle]

Flemmingh
Houston (KWPN)
Marduc (trak)
Mahagoni (trak, may be better in second or later generations)
Cabouchon
Contucci
Werbellin
Wolkenstein II

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=STF;3749168]
Latimer has made his mark! So nice!!
Ferros seem to go either way, depending on what the mare line is used.
Calypso is another that goes either way!
But yes, good add! All of those would be highly welcome in our barn.[/QUOTE]

Gotta agree on Latimer, ours is a really easy guy;).

A friend of ours has a Ferro. Pretty zanny.

We had a Calypso here for awhile. He was “tame” but not a nice ride. Safe but so stiff :(.

Our old guy Meisterwind has sired many very easy to ride but talented offspring.

[jdeboer01]

I’ll bite!

Flemmingh
Lord Sinclair
Brentano II

Judy

[ginger708]

I have found the breed threads to be a great resource:). Even-though I have my one horse at this time. I can only afford one at a time but I still love to look at horses for sale. And to find out what people are riding and what works for them as a dressage horse.

I have also found that the horse that I would buy today is not the same horse that I would have bought three years ago. The more horses that you ride and are exposed to I think you refine your want list. Like know I am looking at horses that have the three good gates that could potentially be my three medal horse.

Granted I can’t buy that horse now because I am not willing to give up my boy. But When the time comes to buy, I would like to have as much information at hand as I can possibly get. Body types, blood lines, breed, all play a hand in what is going to come easy to a horse when you train them.

I would be interested in what thoroughbred sires have thrown the most successful dressage horses

[dps]

I keep looking at Sir Sinclair at Iron Springs

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=ginger708;3749311]
would be interested in what thoroughbred sires have thrown the most successful dressage horses[/QUOTE]

Lauries Crusader has sired some pretty nice Dressage horses. I don’t know any personally but have them on my “wish list” :lol:!!

[ginger708]

I have found the breed threads to be a great resource:). Even-though I have my one horse at this time. I can only afford one at a time but I still love to look at horses for sale. And to find out what people are riding and what works for them as a dressage horse.

I have also found that the horse that I would buy today is not the same horse that I would have bought three years ago. The more horses that you ride and are exposed to I think you refine your want list. Like know I am looking at horses that have the three good gates that could potentially be my three medal horse.

Granted I can’t buy that horse now because I am not willing to give up my boy. But When the time comes to buy, I would like to have as much information at hand as I can possibly get. Body types, blood lines, breed, all play a hand in what is going to come easy to a horse when you train them.

I would be interested in what thoroughbred sires have thrown the most successful dressage horses

[Sacha]

I’m glad Latimer is on more than one persons wish list. We have a super filly foal by him this year

For me, its
Weltmeyer
Donnerhall
Florestan
Ferro
Latimer
Connery

[mtngirl]

What about Jean Brinkman’s Trak - Martini?

Not sure how many of his offspring did upper levels, but I’ve seen a number of them up to 4th level that were very nice and amateur friendly. Seems like I saw his name a lot in the past (I believe he is now deceased) on the USDF list of stallions…?

[slc2]

Not so sure it’s REALLY necessary to rag on K. for not liking your threads, STF. It’s a matter of opinion, and she’s not the only one who didn’t like how it was done.

It did do one thing, however. It gave each group of ‘breedies’ a separate corner, so the threads remained cheery.

I’m not sure the lists above are actually reflecting statistics, they are more about people’s favorites. But how are our statistics?

A stallion who produces alot can dominate the usa statistics without his offspring doing anything more than winning a few training level awards. In such a small wide based market as the US, I think statistics can be misleading.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=STF;3749181]
Im sure there are bloodlines in Arabian world that are more suited for dressage than others, right?

Like I saw a Huckabee (sp?) son that could REALLY hold its own. Also a Desparado son too.

What are your opinions on Arab lines for dressage, share…[/QUOTE]

When I was shoopping for an Arab stallion all that ended up on the short list except for Dervatew Gwyddion (sp?) ended up being Bey lines (which includes Desperado…). Avoid all other halter types. Bey lines do halter some seem to have more rideability that the other halter horses. I would also agree with Polish bred types…more butt…
On Jazz: no expert/ I have only known a handful…but the ones I knew looked great/did very well showing in hand triangle trotting but like nwhr said proved difficult to start under saddle.

[Lgd1]

Flemmingh
Dimaggio - been on lease to Germany for a few years and has got some very successful stock.
Sambertino
Diamond Hit
Don Schufro
Jazz - but tend to be rather hot to ride

Not so well known but ones I’ve been eyeballing or used
Mooiman - a son of Flemmingh. He’s the sire of my 2yo filly and she is a lovely little person as well as having movement to die for. So pleased with her I’m going back for seconds in 2009. He is building quite a name for himself in the UK as producing very rideable offpspring with equable temperaments and good trainability. He did well at the Zwolle CDI stallion show this year and ended up with a full 2008 book with folk having to book for 2009 - pretty much unheard of in the UK. I know he’s going to be available in Canada for 2009.

Oliver - strictly a jumper by bloodlines and owned by the same people who have Mooiman, one of his colt foals took the overall UK KWPN keurings this year and he is producing a lot of dressage type foals as well as the jumpers.

Treliver Decanter (son of Dimaggio)
Samaii (by Sambertino)
Fifty Cent
Blur Hors Romanov
Blue Hors Don Romantic

[acottongim]

Randomly (and all are TK stallions - of course LOL)

Mackensen/Mahgonni
Marduc/Anduc (and hence Hailo)
Hockey
Enrico Carouso
Avignon II/Arongo (full brothers)
Gribaldi
Caprimond
Hohenstein

[FriesianX]

@STF;3749097

A few people keep getting upset about the breed threads in the dressage BB, but honestly there is a reason we have Dressage breeding. A lot of bloodliens are known for dressage production as well as making sucessful dressage horses over the years. Education is the key to important to improving the overall sport and and how plays into our sport of dressage = conformation, trainability, rideability, etc.
Some of you may come back with, Im a lower level rider and dont need “fancy” stuff, but… honestly, even these fancy horses can be AA horses that are fun, easy to sit, and enjoyable to ride.
Just because its bred well does not mean its always a upper level horse, but it can mean that the movements, training and such make it easier for them to do the job and in return its easier for an AA rider to learn and actually RIDE the horse.

Please tell me the breed threads were not a lead in to a new thread that says really, you need a Warmblood to ride dressage :no: It was so positive reading everyone’s threads about their breeds and how well they do. One of the beauties of dressage is that it can benefit ANY breed.

The original dressage horses were the Baroque breeds - and originally dressage was created based on their strengths - the collected work, piaffe, passage, pirouettes, even some of the “high school” moves. Competitive dressage has evolved to highlight the strengths of the Warmbloods - the extended gaits and some of the lateral work that they are better at. The Baroque breeds have been revising their breeding goals to meet the goals of current competitive dressage. Meanwhile, if competitive dressage moves back to emphasize the collected work more, the Baroque breeds will become THE horses to seek out for dressage.

While we talk a lot in this thread about WB lines, there are other lines and breeds that are also quite suited for dressage. And sometimes crossing WBs to other breeds can actually create a better dressage horse - combining the greater elasticity of the WB with the greater ability to collect that the Baroque horses exhibit.

I also think, as you assess which BLOODLINES are preferred in dressage, it is important to remember, the more offspring a stallion sires, the more likely some of those horses will do well in dressage. It is the force of numbers - for example, in another thread, it was noted that by 2002, Weltmeyer had sired over 3000 horses:eek: There better be a lot of those doing well in dressage! Compare that to a popular Baroque horse - where there may not be 1000 TOTAL new registrations for ALL in the breed each year. So, that popular Baroque horse sires 50 offspring - how can they ever compete in the numbers game?

And - while a horse may do well in dressage with a talented pro rider, will those same lines do well with an amateur? I see a ton of the Jazz and Ferro horses - and they are all HOT, HOT, HOT. In the right hands, they are talented competitors, but for the average rider, they are nothing more than a heartbreak in time, effort, and lost confidence.

It is easy to talk about certain bloodlines, and for breeders, important to understand those lines, but for a BUYER and RIDER, it is much more important to understand what kind of mind they can work with, and to understand gaits. Since this is not posted on the breeder forum, but the dressage forum, I thought I’d stick my neck out and point this out. I see MANY riders go out and buy based on what they have read about bloodlines - and that is NOT the way to buy a dressage horse. Mind and movement matter much more than breeding when assessing a riding horse. And there are MANY non-Warmbloods that have that package, as well as many Warmbloods - and many others (both Warmblood and non-Warmblood) that don’t have that package. People need to talk more about what it takes to be successful in a sport, rather than what bloodlines the horse has (unless they are buying to breed).

[Gestalt]

FriesianX - thank you

Finally, a voice of reason. Look for temperament, ridability, 3 good gaits and the “click” factor. There are certain points in each breed that I really, really like; ex; TB’s - love to see them gallop, Arabians - love to see them trot, but it boils down to what can you ride and what can you live with AND what can you afford?

This breeding jazz makes money for the … breeders.

[ideayoda]

There are many nice horses with great movement on your list, but many are also quite hot and quick fire. Look for rideability for your level of competence. And a lot of xx by not be the best for an ammie.

[Pippin]

Wanderbursch II
Prince Thatch
Diamont

are good lines to have in a pedigree for a athletic Dressage horse with good temperament… …

P~

[reidsporthorses.nz]

lines i personally like and would want to ride:

Florestan I (love the elasticity in this line)
Ferro
Jazz
Flemmigh
Rodiamont
Rubenstein
Matador
Martini (trak)
Amiral
Gribaldi
Fuerst Piccolo
Michelangelo (trak)
Hohenstein

[STF]

@FriesianX;3751423

Please tell me the breed threads were not a lead in to a new thread that says really, you need a Warmblood to ride dressage :no: It was so positive reading everyone’s threads about their breeds and how well they do. One of the beauties of dressage is that it can benefit ANY breed.

The original dressage horses were the Baroque breeds - and originally dressage was created based on their strengths - the collected work, piaffe, passage, pirouettes, even some of the “high school” moves. Competitive dressage has evolved to highlight the strengths of the Warmbloods - the extended gaits and some of the lateral work that they are better at. The Baroque breeds have been revising their breeding goals to meet the goals of current competitive dressage. Meanwhile, if competitive dressage moves back to emphasize the collected work more, the Baroque breeds will become THE horses to seek out for dressage.

While we talk a lot in this thread about WB lines, there are other lines and breeds that are also quite suited for dressage. And sometimes crossing WBs to other breeds can actually create a better dressage horse - combining the greater elasticity of the WB with the greater ability to collect that the Baroque horses exhibit.

I also think, as you assess which BLOODLINES are preferred in dressage, it is important to remember, the more offspring a stallion sires, the more likely some of those horses will do well in dressage. It is the force of numbers - for example, in another thread, it was noted that by 2002, Weltmeyer had sired over 3000 horses:eek: There better be a lot of those doing well in dressage! Compare that to a popular Baroque horse - where there may not be 1000 TOTAL new registrations for ALL in the breed each year. So, that popular Baroque horse sires 50 offspring - how can they ever compete in the numbers game?

And - while a horse may do well in dressage with a talented pro rider, will those same lines do well with an amateur? I see a ton of the Jazz and Ferro horses - and they are all HOT, HOT, HOT. In the right hands, they are talented competitors, but for the average rider, they are nothing more than a heartbreak in time, effort, and lost confidence.

It is easy to talk about certain bloodlines, and for breeders, important to understand those lines, but for a BUYER and RIDER, it is much more important to understand what kind of mind they can work with, and to understand gaits. Since this is not posted on the breeder forum, but the dressage forum, I thought I’d stick my neck out and point this out. I see MANY riders go out and buy based on what they have read about bloodlines - and that is NOT the way to buy a dressage horse. Mind and movement matter much more than breeding when assessing a riding horse. And there are MANY non-Warmbloods that have that package, as well as many Warmbloods - and many others (both Warmblood and non-Warmblood) that don’t have that package. People need to talk more about what it takes to be successful in a sport, rather than what bloodlines the horse has (unless they are buying to breed).

Yes, but many breeders breed mind and movement. Most know, its for the AA market. Indexes and BLUPS over the yrs have proven to see rideabiltiy, trainability and overall charcter in play, so yes, its VERY important for breeders of certain bloodlines.

And its not only about the “WBs of the world”, it can be ANY breed known to produce good gaits, trainability, etc. ')