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Bloodlines in regards to dressage and dressage breeding

Dressage
#41

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Most people who have commented on this thread have discussesd what they are familiar with. I took it as an opportunity to get more information about successful dressage bloodlines without regard to breed. To a certain extent, I got new information. Some have contributed about successful arabian lines. Other have chosen to take the “you only want WBs” attitude. But truly I haven’t seen that in many posts.

It cracks me up that FriesianX says

The original dressage horses were the Baroque breeds - and originally dressage was created based on their strengths - the collected work, piaffe, passage, pirouettes, even some of the “high school” moves. Competitive dressage has evolved to highlight the strengths of the Warmbloods - the extended gaits and some of the lateral work that they are better at. The Baroque breeds have been revising their breeding goals to meet the goals of current competitive dressage. Meanwhile, if competitive dressage moves back to emphasize the collected work more, the Baroque breeds will become THE horses to seek out for dressage.

FX starts about by saying historically successful dressage is breed specific to Baroque horses. I am not sure that I agree with that but I am not going argue the point. Competitive dressage has never highlighted the strength of warmbloods. It reflects the progression of training towards FEI level work. FEI work has always been about collection, it is the epitome of proper schooling. Analysis of a GP test by the scoring weight given to collected movements and you will find that over 60% of the possible points are for collected work. If Baroque breeds are superior at collected work, why aren’t they cleaning up in GP?

FriesianX also says

People need to talk more about what it takes to be successful in a sport, rather than what bloodlines the horse has (unless they are buying to breed).
This is a ridiculous statement on its face. The traits that are necessary to be successful in sport are transmitted through bloodlines, some more prepotent than others. Why else would breeders breed dressage horses?

If you are breeding horses for dressage; please add your knowledge to the discussion.

PS Do you consider Fresians to be a baroque breed? If so, why?

#42

I dont think FresianX was being ugly, I think she was just stating her opinion on her breed love, which is repectable.
This is not about a certain breed in general, but is about bloodlines that have proven to do well in the dressage world.

#43

OK, I’ll bite. Breeding for dressage is not rocket science, but the more you understand how form follows function, the more successful you will be both as a rider, as a judge, and as a breeder. There have been many excellent articles written on the subject of the biomechanics of dressage by Dr. Hillary Clayton, J. Aston Moore, the NAWPN, and others. The USDF “L” Judges program includes a section on the biomechanics of dressage.

I like to think of myself as a dressage rider and a breeder of dressage horses. Based on my experience both as a rider, and as an observer at all levels of dressage competition, I think I know how a dressage horse is expected to move, what he must be able to do to complete a dressage test at any level of competition, and how his character and conformation affects his ability to perform those movements. I am a firm believer that both character and form (conformation) relate directly to function. In other words, a long backed horse with a low set on neck, a weak loin, and straight hindlegs is unlikely to make it to the upper levels of dressage. Notice I did not say it is impossible, just unlikely. And you can have the most conformationally correct, beautifully moving horse in the world, and if he just doesn’t want to do it for you, you aren’t going to get to the top with that horse either.

Some bloodlines are known for producing certain characteristics (either good or bad), perhaps a good temperament, or a good canter, or good walk, or a not so good shoulder, or not correct in the front leg, etc. etc.

Here is an excellent article on the subject that discusses this much better than I ever could!

http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/Great_Breeders/WERNER_SCHOCKEMOHL/werner_schockemohl.htm

When I start to think of myself as a “breeder” I go back and read this article and I am humbled and realize how little I really know.

But, I continue to research and study, and I use the knowledge I have to evaluate potential broodmares and stallions, and to make my breeding decisions. Which stallions, when bred to my mare with her individual phenotype and genotype, are most likely to produce offspring whose character and conformation would assist rather than hinder their performance in the dressage arena. My hope is that if I am successful, and breed horses with this natural talent they will perform better in dressage competition. But even if they do not outperform the competition, they will probably be easier to train, and easier to keep sound and performing for longer. And that is all I can ask.

#44

Most people in the USA who ride dressage are riding at the lower levels, intro, training and first level.

Most of them spend less than ten thousand dollars on their horses. Surveys here seem to follow that.

I think for most people, big fancy gaits and other ‘ideals’ are not what people need or even usually want.

I also think that most of the horses people get to do dressage on still today are not horses whose parents were chosen or bred themselves, with the intent of creating a dressage horse.

I think alot of the horses being used for dressage started doing something else, or are from breeds not developed only for dressage.

They are mostly multiple purpose or ‘versatility’ breeds - Quarter Horses, Thoroughbreds, Morgans, Appaloosas, Arabians. I think the biggest percentage are Thoroughbreds and Quarter Horses. These are not breeds originally created for the purpose of doing dressage. Quarter Horses were originally ranch horses, THoroughbreds, race horses, Morgans, light agricultural and driving horses, Appaloosas, ranch horses, Arabian horses, desert horses for battle, ceremonial and distance riding. Frisians - driving horses.

Over time people have definitely tried to bring in more ‘sport’ traits, but there is still a huge variety in these breeds, with individuals more or less suited to dressage sport.

Because of this and the limitations most people have in getting consistent instruction, they aren’t actually selecting or testing a ‘dressage horse’, but rather, a nice all-round horse that will stand up to some lower level dressage and score moderately well around home…and probably do a little low jumping, some trails, maybe a little team penning, who knows, and there are many types that will ‘fill the bill’.

This means one isn’t really selecting for conformation that withstands more advanced collection.

Because of all this, I think that there’s no real point in talking about ‘breeds’ for dressage.

I think the bottom line is choosing individual horses

2 Likes
#45

My opinion is that a horse that has been bred to withstand the rigours of the job it is expected to do will do that job with SO MUCH more ease than one who is not. I think most people do not fully understand this until they ride a conformed this way, a horse that has it both mentally and physically. And just so everyone knows, I am not talking about weekend dressage or dabbling in the lower levels. I am talking about the SPORT of dressage at a competative level…what a dressage horse breeding program is centered around and what is the stated breeding goal of many internationally known and respected sport horse breeding societies.

I am currently doing a working student program at a very competative dressage barn and it is SO obvious why some of the horses have progressed so much more faster than the others. Why? Because it is easy for them, their combined physical and mental attributes have made the job that the riders asks sooooo much easier, so much less uncomfortable. I have to say as well, that both components are equally as important.

There are some breeds of horses that, according to the breed standard, do not have conformation that suits dressage. This makes the job much harder for them. It is not brain science. I think, living in reality here, most of us know the conformation needed for competative FEI level dressage is not something found in most non warmblood, non baroque breeds. In fact , within these breeds, it is often not present (it is present at a much higher rate, but some are still better conformed than others) so that is why it is SO important for breeders to pay attention to bloodlines. Which stallions are known for producing horses that have the whole package?? This is no different than any other sport discipline, from cutting to show jumping to racing. Very specific bloodlines always dominate the sport and attention should be paid to them!Any breeder who is not commited to understanding the bloodlines of their sport shouldn’t be breeding in my mind.

SherryM, I love that article too. I saw Alabaster a few months ago…what a shame it is that his frozen is not really viable.

#46

I think as far as importance, its difficult to say… Donnerhall, Rubinstein, Florestan, Weltmeyer, Mahagoni, Argentinus, Quattro B, and Sandro Hit to me stand in a place of their own.
When I am buying a horse for sport I feel even more comfortable if an animal has these names, even if deep in their lines! My next door neighbor has a new colt, by a Sandro Hit/Cor De La Bryere/Argentinus stallion (Starlight) on her Lauries As/Donnerhall mare, I can honestly tell you I have already seen it Passage AMAZINGLY in the paddock, next to his mother. In the mornings before I leave for work, I always try to sneak a peak at him.
Breeding should take on a bigger importance to us riders, even if we are not Pro riders! I am getting into breedin myself right now and keeping my ears open!

#47

More bloodlines (mostly Swedish) for dressage

Weltmeyer has to top the list since he’s sired the most FEI dressage horses in world.

(not in any particular order)

Master (competed internationally and sired Tip Top, Max and many other international dressage horses)

Briar (highest dressage horse on BLUP index for several years, 3 Olympics, many WC competitions)

Amiral (throws good gaits and competed in 3 Olympics)

Gauguin de Lully (sire of many successful international GP horses, won his own Olympic medals, World Championships and European Champions, plus he evented through Preliminary)

Utrillo (won his own Olympic gold medal and sired more Olympic medalists)

#48

[QUOTE=Donella;3752593]
My opinion is that a horse that has been bred to withstand the rigours of the job it is expected to do will do that job with SO MUCH more ease than one who is not. I think most people do not fully understand this until they ride a conformed this way, a horse that has it both mentally and physically. And just so everyone knows, I am not talking about weekend dressage or dabbling in the lower levels. I am talking about the SPORT of dressage at a competative level…what a dressage horse breeding program is centered around and what is the stated breeding goal of many internationally known and respected sport horse breeding societies.

I am currently doing a working student program at a very competative dressage barn and it is SO obvious why some of the horses have progressed so much more faster than the others. Why? Because it is easy for them, their combined physical and mental attributes have made the job that the riders asks sooooo much easier, so much less uncomfortable. I have to say as well, that both components are equally as important.

There are some breeds of horses that, according to the breed standard, do not have conformation that suits dressage. This makes the job much harder for them. It is not brain science. I think, living in reality here, most of us know the conformation needed for competative FEI level dressage is not something found in most non warmblood, non baroque breeds. In fact , within these breeds, it is often not present (it is present at a much higher rate, but some are still better conformed than others) so that is why it is SO important for breeders to pay attention to bloodlines. Which stallions are known for producing horses that have the whole package?? This is no different than any other sport discipline, from cutting to show jumping to racing. Very specific bloodlines always dominate the sport and attention should be paid to them!Any breeder who is not commited to understanding the bloodlines of their sport shouldn’t be breeding in my mind. [/QUOTE]

This is so so so true!

#49

Camohn,
Did you ever breed to Gwyddian?

He was bred by a friend of mine.

He is now in England and doing well.

He’s a 16h chestnut sabino stallion.

There is a Gwyddian/TB gelding in my area, gorgeous hunter mover.

Sally

#50

[QUOTE=Oakstable;3753896]
Camohn,
Did you ever breed to Gwyddian?

He was bred by a friend of mine.

He is now in England and doing well.

He’s a 16h chestnut sabino stallion.

There is a Gwyddian/TB gelding in my area, gorgeous hunter mover.

Sally[/QUOTE]

I did not…he ended up on my top 3 list but ended up using a local stallion (1 state over) since it was easier for me to go see him in person and Gwyddian was on the West Coast.

#51

FX wrote: “I see MANY riders go out and buy based on what they have read about bloodlines - and that is NOT the way to buy a dressage horse. Mind and movement matter much more than breeding when assessing a riding horse.”

Bloodlines also help determine temperament and movement. That’s why the Germans (most familiar with the Hanoverians) spend so much time tracking all the aspects of their horses. They are not only scored on themselves as individuals, but the stallion books also track how they pass these characteristics on: front and hind legs, saddle position, all three gaits, jumping ability, rideability/tempermant, etc. That’s why bloodlines matter. Of course, you have to judge the individual horse standing in front of you, but if bloodlines weren’t important, why so much detailed tracking?! :slight_smile:

Ginger – you may have missed this from a previous poster, but another influential TB in the Hanoverians, for example, was Prince Thatch.

1 Like
#52

Would have to agree, I honestly believe dressage is for ALL HORSES. In theory, if you want the upper level collection then it makes more sense to purposely go after specifically bred horses. But when my non-WB was at the upper levels… how can I put this… where did everybody go? His classes were quite small for the most part — with absolutely all hard core professionals riding.

But I’ll bite: my favorite sire is Storm Cat. He got the job done, despite the sketchy background on bloodlines and the less than ideal dressage build.

Best news yet: after two careers including winning national champion USDF All Breeds Program at I-II, my Storm Cat dressage horse is 100% sound, no hock injections. Now, how many bred-for-dressage sires can boast of that for their offspring.

Still think Dressage is for all horses, especially for the vast market in the USA. If you’re talking profesional national riders – of course that is what, at most 10% of the overall dressage market? Most never get past First level. Virtually any sound horse in the country should be able to get through training level with respectable scores.

#53

Would have to agree, I honestly believe dressage is for ALL HORSES. In theory, if you want the upper level collection then it makes more sense to purposely go after specifically bred horses. But when my non-WB was at the upper levels… how can I put this… where did everybody go? His classes were quite small for the most part — with absolutely all hard core professionals riding.

But I’ll bite: my favorite sire is Storm Cat xx. He got the job done, despite the sketchy background on bloodlines and the less than ideal dressage build.

Best news yet: after two careers including winning national champion USDF All Breeds Program at I-II, my Storm Cat dressage horse is 100% sound, no hock injections. Now, how many bred-for-dressage sires can boast of that for their offspring. Being bred uphill is not known to enhance soundness, it takes it’s toll on the hocks – although the uphill build does help free up the shoulder movement.

Still think Dressage is for all horses, especially for the vast market in the USA. If you’re talking professional national riders – of course that is what, at most 10% of the overall dressage market? Most never get past First level. Virtually any sound horse and pony in the country should be able to get through training level with respectable scores.

#54

Would have to agree, I honestly believe dressage is for ALL HORSES. In theory, if you want the upper level collection then it makes more sense to purposely go after specifically bred horses. But when my non-WB was at the upper levels… how can I put this… where did everybody go? His classes were quite small for the most part — with absolutely all hard core professionals riding.

But I’ll bite: my favorite sire is Storm Cat xx. He got the job done, despite the sketchy background on bloodlines and the less than ideal dressage build.

Best news yet: after two careers including winning national champion USDF All Breeds Program at I-II, my Storm Cat dressage horse is 100% sound, no hock injections. Now, how many bred-for-dressage sires can boast of that for their offspring. Being bred uphill is not known to enhance soundness, it takes it’s toll on the hocks – although the uphill build does help free up the shoulder movement. If you notice the Lippizanners are not bred uphill, that school of dressage pre-dates the miracles of modern science with all the joint supplements…

Still think Dressage is for all horses, especially for the vast market in the USA. If you’re talking professional national riders – of course that is what, at most 10% of the overall dressage market? Most never get past First level. Virtually any sound horse and pony in the country should be able to get through training level with respectable scores.

#55

[QUOTE=Donella;3752593]

I am currently doing a working student program at a very competative dressage barn and it is SO obvious why some of the horses have progressed so much more faster than the others. Why? Because it is easy for them, their combined physical and mental attributes have made the job that the riders asks sooooo much easier, so much less uncomfortable. I have to say as well, that both components are equally as important.

.[/QUOTE]

very VERY true… I have witness this with my own horses… I have a mare coming out of rehab that had // has it all… … with each day she gains more strength she ‘‘offers’’ more … Everything is just easy for her… no drilling on her , just showing what we want on her … It is all there … simple comes by naturally…

Now i have others that well , it is not so simple for them … yes they can perform , it just did not come as fast…

P~

#56

yes, when natural flowing gaits are there that’s an immediate plus, but mentally it doesn’t come any easier and one breed/registry doesn’t train any faster than another. Horses move up the levels at their own pace, especially mid and upper level work, not one breed/registry over another.

#57

From going shopping for a young horse with potential to get to at least PSG and hopefully higher what I noticed is that putting two big name bloodlines together does not make a good horse. Most of those I looked at with mouthwatering pedigrees were decidedly average in the flesh.

What I want for a dressage sire is one who has sired very few foals but has a very high success rate with their offspring. Which rules out the big names. Stallions I would be interested in looking at include Van Deyk, Silvermoon, Miley (a little known coloured stallion who has sired advanced eventers, top show horses and grand prix dressage horses). I do love Flemmingh because he throws such wonderful temperaments time after time.

Jazz is a reknowned sire of dressage horses but he also deserves his reputation for throwing hot horses. A quote from Adelinde Cornelissen a couple of days ago is
“Adelinde quit teaching, her profession of six years, in March to concentrate on her former wild child Parzival. She has ridden the 11yo chestnut gelding by Jazz since he was a 5yo and spent more time spinning around than going forward.
‘People told me to have him shot’ she recalled.”

Now does that sound like the sort of horse most of us would like to own? I wouldn’t!!! There is a massive difference between a horse who will shine at the top levels of dressage with a gifted rider on board and a horse that most of us will enjoy training to the best of our abilities.

The trade off is that a horse who will go to GP needs to be sensitive and reactive. Without these attributes the horse will not get there. But get a horse with too much sensitivity and too much reactivity most riders get frightened and the horse gets sold on as “dangerous”.

It is a difficult balancing act. What I do think is that almost any normal horse can be trained to 3rd level. Most nice horses can be trained to PSG. Only exceptional horses can get to GP. As a rider I think you should have taken your ordinary horse to 3rd level before looking for a fancy horse to take further. If you cannot take the horse you have at the moment to 3rd I think the rider is most likely to need more lessons rather than a horse upgrade.

1 Like
#58

What I want for a dressage sire is one who has sired very few foals but has a very high success rate with their offspring.

From a satistical standpoint, that comment really does not make any sense.

#59

Of course it does. If a sire has few offspring but a lot of those offspring have done well in dressage then statistically they have a high % of successful offspring. Which means if I bred to a stallion like this I have a higher chance of getting a successful offspring than if I used one of the very popular stallions who cover 500+ mares a year but only get 1 or 2 GP competitors in their entire career.

I am a very strong believer that the best stallions on the planet are very different from the most famous ones. IMHO marketing influences breeders far too much but finding out the facts of the lesser-known stallions and their offspring is difficult and time consuming.

#60

My Dutch horse is Ulft/Doruto.
If any horse was bred to succeed at dresssge is was him.
Henk said that if a horse with his conformatiion/talent could not do
GP, then none of them could :smiley: The trick was not to get left behind
when he spooked - his movement is so big that one step left or right
could mean a deviation of a few feet. I never saw so many 8,4,8,4
tests as with him - luckily they averaged to 60%. There wasn’t a movement
in the GP test I did not get an 8 on, we just couldn’t string em together.
Anyway - how come no one has mentioned either of these lines?
(Well - Ferro (who I like to say is the same vintage Ulft sperm as my
Fabian) was mentioned)
Did Doruto not produce any good sons?
Dot

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