Bloodlines in regards to dressage and dressage breeding

[QUOTE=stolensilver;3757455]
Of course it does. If a sire has few offspring but a lot of those offspring have done well in dressage then statistically they have a high % of successful offspring. Which means if I bred to a stallion like this I have a higher chance of getting a successful offspring than if I used one of the very popular stallions who cover 500+ mares a year but only get 1 or 2 GP competitors in their entire career. [/QUOTE]

I don’t agree with your reasoning. For one thing, I think you are forgetting a very big factor here: the horses falling into the right hands. By your example, one could say that the sire who has few offspring but were highly successful simply fell into the right hands. Anyway, I don’t think you can remove a very significant part of the equation: a good rider and access to good training.

A lot of super horses never reach their potential because they didn’t fall into the “right” hands.

As far as another poster saying he/she has seen a top sire bred to another top sire and the result was average. Several things can be occurring here. First, there has to be the right match. Some lines do not go well together. The other thing is genetics: There is no guarantee that breeding the best to the best gets you “bestest.” But the likelihood of this happening is greater than breeding average to average.

That a huge part of it, but there so many variables, that its almost impossible to get an idea of what a stallion can produce without a LOT of offspring to find common factors.
What is it, it takes breeding a mare 3 times to get an idea of what she can produce, so then take the mix of stallion genetics in it, then you MAY have an idea of what you can breed or not breed her to. If you have a long base of approved stallions and breeding stock in her, we can figure it out a bit more based on genetics, etc.
Just dont agree on trying to get a base of sire indexes based on a few offspring, dont see it % possible.

[QUOTE=sm;3757295]
yes, when natural flowing gaits are there that’s an immediate plus, but mentally it doesn’t come any easier and one breed/registry doesn’t train any faster than another. Horses move up the levels at their own pace, especially mid and upper level work, not one breed/registry over another.[/QUOTE]

I’ll have to respectfully disagree on this one. The horse with the whole package does find the work “easier” so progresses much faster than the horse who struggles with the work. And when looking for the horse with the whole package, you will be more likely to find “it” in a horse bred for the job.

Our young stallion is fascinated with cows. He leaves no doubt that he would enjoy chasing them. I’m sure he would “work” cows if he was trained so he knew what was expected of him. But his chances of being competitive at working cows is pretty slim. Why? Because he is a 16.3 hand Warmblood who isn’t the right “shape” nor is he bred to be competitive as a cow horse.

IF I was looking for a dressage horse I would look for the best gaits I could get with a soft back so I could sit it…plus looks and the interior qualities.

Some of the huge movers would not be so good for ammies and need the pro ride. Yes, No?

Dotneko,

Ulft is certainly a well respected sire, but more an alrounder. It’s his son Ferro that became very famous as a dressage producer.

Doruto is certainly a highly praised Trakehner stallion used mostly by the KWPN. He is seen as a producer of performance horses, and broodmare sire…and is seen in bottom of a lot of stallion pedigrees but rarely as the sire of an approved stallion. His most famous offsping is probably Olympic Barbria.

I have some Doruto and Amor in my best producing mare through the stallion El Corona. I also own a Gribaldi mare which I absolutely love. She’s out of a Burggraaf mare which is not so well known for dressage, but BOY can she move.

I’ve seen both Ferro and Jazz in the flesh and many of their stallion sons but I have not had the nerve to breed to either one. I admire them, but they do not suit my Ammy breeding program.

On the sire side of the equation I’ve been using some Rotspon, Sandro Hit and Wolkentanz breeding. I’m adding a little german blood to those dutch pedigrees.!!!

I love the Sandro Hit influence through Sinatra Song on my powerhouse mare with the El Corona breeding. WOW…a future superstar…I hope:):slight_smile:

Vandenbrink, I LOVE your black Jerry colt - what a beautiful elegant neck and shoulder, and your Rivalia canadian wb, what a lovely hindquarter on that one. NICE!

[QUOTE=Touchstone Farm;3757694]
I don’t agree with your reasoning. For one thing, I think you are forgetting a very big factor here: the horses falling into the right hands. By your example, one could say that the sire who has few offspring but were highly successful simply fell into the right hands. Anyway, I don’t think you can remove a very significant part of the equation: a good rider and access to good training.

A lot of super horses never reach their potential because they didn’t fall into the “right” hands.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this 100%. In fact I think the way the horse is produced is far more important than how they are bred. There are few riders able to produce a grand prix jumper or dressage horse from scratch but a lot who could mess one up! However my experience is that quality gaits for dressage are absent from the majority of big name x big name pedigrees. I buy my horses as youngsters and have looked at a lot of foals, 1 year olds and 2 year olds. Many of them are average despite outstanding pedigrees. At that age what the horse is showing you is only down to genetics as they have (hopefully!) had no training. This is underlined if you look at the prices young horses go for in the German auctions. One that stood out for me this year was Quaterback. A small handful of his offspring went for top prices and the vast majority were priced with the also rans. That suggests to me that only a few of his offspring are outstanding. I’m not picking on Quaterback in particular, this pattern is common, it just happens to be that I looked out for the sale prices of his offspring this year as he has caused such a stir.

It is the importance of the rider and the training in the production of the horse that makes me even more impressed by the stallions who cover very few mares yet still produce the top performers. There will not be any rich breeders using them who will make sure their offspring are given to talented riders. Who buys the offspring of the no-name stallion is down to chance. When, despite these handicaps, a stallion is still able to produce grand prix horses he is either very very lucky or a very very good stallion.

I hear versions of this comment quite often and I have to disagree.

A horse who will “shine at the top levels of dressage” has to have 1) athletic ability (i.e., the power to engage and lift their bodies and stay in balance); 2) three good, absolutely clean gaits (the rhythm has to be pure at the walk, trot and canter), and 3) good rideability (they must be willing partners). I cannot imagine anyone who would not enjoying training and riding a horse like this at any level!

Because I believe “sensitive and reactive” can mean very different things to different people, for purposes of this discussion I am going to use the term sensitive to mean highly responsive to the rider’s aids, and reactive to mean highly responsive as a result of stress or emotional upset. If by “sensitive and reactive” you mean that the horse is highly responsive to the rider’s aids, then I believe it is correct that to perform at the GP level a horse must be sensitive. But this is because dressage is supposed to teach the horse to be “sensitive” to the rider’s aids. If the training has not accomplished this goal, then the horse will not be successful at the GP level.

If by “sensitive and reactive”, you mean highly responsive as a result of stress or emotional upset (scared by loud noise, leaf blowing in it’s path, being asked to perform a difficult task, etc.) then I do not believe this is a desirable quality in any dressage horse. If we refer back to the training scale for dressage, relaxation is the second building block on the triangle. How can the horse be relaxed if it is stressed or emotionally upset?

There are many horses at the top who are sensitive, but NOT reactive. And there are some that are sensitive AND reactive. It is the sensitive and reactive horses that must be ridden by excellent rider’s who are able to compensate for the horse’s response to stress and emotional upset. But even with the best of rider’s, these reactive horses are frequently inconsistent performers (brilliant sometimes, but equally awful at other times). AND, even in the hands of top riders, many of these horses do not make it to the top.

Finally, there can be many reasons why top riders may ride reactive horses, maybe the horse is owned by someone who pays them to ride it, or maybe they personally like the challenge presented by these horses. But, being reactive is not a positive attribute in my book, and I believe many rider’s at all levels of dressage feel the same.

1 Like

[QUOTE=wildswan;3758400]
I hear versions of this comment quite often and I have to disagree.

A horse who will “shine at the top levels of dressage” has to have 1) athletic ability (i.e., the power to engage and lift their bodies and stay in balance); 2) three good, absolutely clean gaits (the rhythm has to be pure at the walk, trot and canter), and 3) good rideability (they must be willing partners). I cannot imagine anyone who would not enjoying training and riding a horse like this at any level!

Because I believe “sensitive and reactive” can mean very different things to different people, for purposes of this discussion I am going to use the term sensitive to mean highly responsive to the rider’s aids, and reactive to mean highly responsive as a result of stress or emotional upset. If by “sensitive and reactive” you mean that the horse is highly responsive to the rider’s aids, then I believe it is correct that to perform at the GP level a horse must be sensitive. But this is because dressage is supposed to teach the horse to be “sensitive” to the rider’s aids. If the training has not accomplished this goal, then the horse will not be successful at the GP level.

If by “sensitive and reactive”, you mean highly responsive as a result of stress or emotional upset (scared by loud noise, leaf blowing in it’s path, being asked to perform a difficult task, etc.) then I do not believe this is a desirable quality in any dressage horse. If we refer back to the training scale for dressage, relaxation is the second building block on the triangle. How can the horse be relaxed if it is stressed or emotionally upset?

There are many horses at the top who are sensitive, but NOT reactive. And there are some that are sensitive AND reactive. It is the sensitive and reactive horses that must be ridden by excellent rider’s who are able to compensate for the horse’s response to stress and emotional upset. But even with the best of rider’s, these reactive horses are frequently inconsistent performers (brilliant sometimes, but equally awful at other times). AND, even in the hands of top riders, many of these horses do not make it to the top.

Finally, there can be many reasons why top riders may ride reactive horses, maybe the horse is owned by someone who pays them to ride it, or maybe they personally like the challenge presented by these horses. But, being reactive is not a positive attribute in my book, and I believe many rider’s at all levels of dressage feel the same.[/QUOTE]

Good response Sherri- and I would tend to say I agree with you on most points- however you leave out a massive factor in the process of this endeavour- which leads me to believe that you haven’t really encountered one of those sensitive AND reactive horses: It is VERY hard to survive the first 4 to 5 years of training on one of those horses- without either diminishing their qualities or otherwise ending up in the hospital a couple of times. Thankfully with consistent training and age- the horses will and do settle somewhat and do become less of a handful. However very few will sell a horse that is 7 or 8 and very promising and very talented unless it is for a lot of money- and usually the amateur crowd does not qualify for this. So- I think Stolensilver’s point was- that the usual amateur is either put off by this kind of a young horse or ends up screwing it up- or ends up making mistakes in the training that end up not producing the quality of work that horse would have been capable of.
Sadly- making a horse to the top involves a lot of elements and factors that all have to play together in order to produce the correct result.

jmo.

[QUOTE=Sabine;3758453]
Good response Sherri- and I would tend to say I agree with you on most points- however you leave out a massive factor in the process of this endeavour- which leads me to believe that you haven’t really encountered one of those sensitive AND reactive horses: It is VERY hard to survive the first 4 to 5 years of training on one of those horses- without either diminishing their qualities or otherwise ending up in the hospital a couple of times. Thankfully with consistent training and age- the horses will and do settle somewhat and do become less of a handful. However very few will sell a horse that is 7 or 8 and very promising and very talented unless it is for a lot of money- and usually the amateur crowd does not qualify for this. So- I think Stolensilver’s point was- that the usual amateur is either put off by this kind of a young horse or ends up screwing it up- or ends up making mistakes in the training that end up not producing the quality of work that horse would have been capable of.
Sadly- making a horse to the top involves a lot of elements and factors that all have to play together in order to produce the correct result.

jmo.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. I am an ammy rider and I have one of these beasties. The mare’s dam was a nice ammy (easy) horse. The daughter…ummm…not. She is now 6/been under saddle for 2 years now. “Capriole at X when the wind clinks the gate chain” does not have a lot of entertainment value. She is coming 7 and FINALLY starting to settle down now. While she still spooks at things on occasion she now has coping skills, where it used to be a complete meltdown. As an ammy is this the horse I would want to buy for myself? NOPE! But I bred her and I got her. Would I repeat the breeding cross? NOPE! I am quite surprised I have not kissed the dirt yet off of her…there certainly were some close calls!!
Luckily we work with a trainer that has given me some distraction techniques to get her mind off of spooking at stuff (has helped a lot) and she is probably right when she said at my last lesson “I think in another 3 to 6 months you will actually like riding this horse”. 7 years is a long time to wait to like the critter though!!

Thanks SLC2,

I love my Jerry. I need to update his page. He’s a yearling, going on 2 now.

Rivalia is about to go to a trainer to get backed. I’m going to ride her myself and I’m really looking forward to it. She owes that back end to her dam. That mare is the best at putting a really solid hip on all her kids. I can’t wait to get on Rivalia and a do a bit of dressage with her. I think the collected work will be easy for her.

[QUOTE=Sabine;3758453]
Good response Sherri- and I would tend to say I agree with you on most points- however you leave out a massive factor in the process of this endeavour- which leads me to believe that you haven’t really encountered one of those sensitive AND reactive horses: It is VERY hard to survive the first 4 to 5 years of training on one of those horses- without either diminishing their qualities or otherwise ending up in the hospital a couple of times. Thankfully with consistent training and age- the horses will and do settle somewhat and do become less of a handful. However very few will sell a horse that is 7 or 8 and very promising and very talented unless it is for a lot of money- and usually the amateur crowd does not qualify for this. So- I think Stolensilver’s point was- that the usual amateur is either put off by this kind of a young horse or ends up screwing it up- or ends up making mistakes in the training that end up not producing the quality of work that horse would have been capable of.
Sadly- making a horse to the top involves a lot of elements and factors that all have to play together in order to produce the correct result.

jmo.[/QUOTE]

Sabine - Actually I HAVE encountered many of those “sensitive and reactive” horses (actually a little too up close and personal for my taste). That is precisely why I think it is important to make such a clear distinction between sensitive and reactive.

I agree that the usual amateur is 1) either put off by the behavior of a reactive horse; or 2) due to lack of skill, makes mistakes in the training that result in the horse not reaching it’s full potential. As a “usual amateur”, I have done both.:eek:

Also agree that getting a horse to the top involves a lot of elements and factors that all have to play together in order to produce the correct result. Equally important as the talent of the horse is the talent of the trainer and rider. But this is also true for the sensitive, but not reactive, horse.

So, I think these points further support my premise. If athletic ability, gaits, and rideability are all equal, the sensitive but not reactive horse will be just as likely to win at the GP level as the sensitive and reactive horse. And since there are fewer riders (potential buyers) willing to, or capable of riding the reactive horse correctly and to its full potential, I try to breed horses that are rideable, not reactive, and that can be trained to be sensitive. By breeding in this way, I believe we can produce a greater number of horses that are not only capable of winning at the GP level, BUT ALSO capable of being ridden by riders of lesser talent.

I agree with Sherry, and this is where breeding comes in. Our goal is to breed that horse that is sensitive and yet not overly reactive. It is not easy, because they often are related, though they certainly don’t have to be. I have ridden many very sensitive horses with superb inner calm.

So we can argue about all the factors involved in a horse making it to GP , because we all know there is more to it than the horse itself, however, if the horse itself is not suited, then the point becomes moot. That is where breeding comes in and why it is such an important part of the equation.

[QUOTE=Donella;3752593]
SherryM, I love that article too. I saw Alabaster a few months ago…what a shame it is that his frozen is not really viable.[/QUOTE]

A local breeder in my area has a coming 2-year-old Alabaster son. He is a FANCY kid. Great gaits, handsome face, and tall.

A top horse is nearly always, to a degree, ‘reactive as well as sensitive’. To an extent, it is the same thing. YES it is ideal if the horse is ‘sensitive’ and not ‘reactive’ to the environment or stress, YES that’s true.

But fact is, it is not even Many or Most top horses that are ‘sensitive’ and not ‘reactive’. It is just not so easy to separate one from the other.

It is training that teaches horses to be, most of the time, ‘sensitive and not reactive’.

That’s the case with ANY Horse to a point. You’ve all seen an amateur’s horse stop spooking when the trainer gets on it.

But…There is a limit, for every trainer, no matter how good they are, to how much they can school ‘sensitive to the aids’ into a horse. Horses are improved, not made into Olympic horses.

The extra energy, the excitement, gets translated into more and more impulsion, more articulation of the joints, more freedom, more lightness, more self carriage.

YES dressage improves sensitivity to the aids, YES it’s the goal of dressage to ride on light aids, and there is STILL a limit to how much you can make a horse be sensitive to the aids if he is not naturally sensitive to the aids.

MUCH ‘insensitive to the aids’ is due to physical limitations, NOT a lack of desire to please or a cold nature. That’s the first thing we’re ignoring in these discussions. Horses DO have physical limits to how sensitive they can become, no matter who trains them. More about that later if desired.

MOST professional trainers, the ones who will be taking these elite horses on, could care less if the horse gets excited sometimes.

They also know that competing a top horse like that is a marathon that lasts years. We only see the end point on the internet, TV or magazine. These horses are NOT ‘overnight sensations’. The horse has to come out every single day for YEARS, thinking, ‘whoop tee dooh!’ with his ears up and prancing around like its his birthday.

You saw the list of competitions Power and Paint went to in his time - it was as long as your arm. The horse has to have a kind of energy, a kind of ‘every day is a new day’ that most horses simply cannot manage.

Professionals correct things very quickly, and unlike an amateur (this is the difference between an amateur and a professional), they correct things very quickly and they aren’t going to be upset or ‘thrown off’ by this, and the rest of the test will be fine.

They also realize one blown movement isn’t going to ruin their score.

The judging has always been like that, the desire from the very start of the FEI was to ignore the occasional ‘instinctive reaction’, and it isn’t going to make or break a test if the horse gets a little wild.

The way a professional reacts to misbehavior of a horse is very, very different from how an amateur reacts. The professional either laughs or says, ‘aha, something to work with’ and the amateur says ‘oh my god, i need a valium’. The horse suitable for one simply isn’t suitable for the other.

While I’m also an amateur rider I’ve done OK in dressage. I’ve trained one horse to PSG and been in the top 50 in the country at medium level (3rd) and am training my second horse at Advanced medium (low 4th). I don’t say that to blow my own trumpet, just to put my comments into context.

My first horse is sensitive and reactive enough to have made GP. Sadly we’re going to run out of time before we get there as we didn’t start till she was 9 and I didn’t know what I was doing! She has got her 1 times and has got piaffe but is still a very long way from being a GP horse.

When I say ‘sensitive’ I mean a horse that leaps forwards from an lightening of your seat. You don’t need to use your legs to get a forwards reaction. By reactive I mean that if I work the horse in hand and touch them, so lightly it barely moves the hair, anywhere on any of their legs that leg is snatched high into the air immediately. If I touch the horse on the side they will move sideways as far and as fast as they can. If you have those sorts of reactions built into your horse you can then concentrate on finesse and expression rather than the movements themselves. This horse BTW is an Irish Draught x TB!)

My second horse is a warmblood and has a full brother who trained to GP. She’s a strange one in that she was explosive and quite frankly terrifying for her first 18 months under saddle but now she is a little older she is not as sensitive or reactive as I would like. What may get her through, although I don’t think she’ll make GP, is that her slowness of reactions are predictable so you can plan them into your riding and also, more importantly, she tries very hard.

I do think dressage has a tendency to be romanticised on the internet. At the higher levels the movements are physically very difficult for the horse and the horse has to have a work ethic that allows you to ask them to keep working even when they are finding things tough. I suppose it is a little like going to a top fitness instructor who will keep asking you for more and more and more long after you think you have no more to give. IME most kind, easy horses simply do not have this level of mental toughness. They would rather give up and say “I can’t” than dig deep (like my first horse) or say “how dare you tell me what to do?” and rise to the challenge (like my second horse). She makes me laugh. She gets cross when asked to try a new movement, throws a strop and then throws heart and soul into conquering the new movement just to show me how wrong I was when I thought she couldn’t do it.

I realise these are not top dressage horses but having been around several horses that are competing successfully at GP I think I recognise at least some of the traits that make a top horse. Straightforward niceness is not one of them. That isn’t to say that top dressage horses are nasty but they are all mentally tough and determined and out and out triers. If the qualities required for a horse to become a top GP horse were not rare these horses would not be as prized as they are, would they? And top riders would not find it so very hard to find a new horse with the potential they are looking for.

Having said all that I also think there are far more young horses with the potential for GP than ever get there. Most of us simply do not have the stability of seat or the finesse of aids to train a horse to GP. Without the right instructor a horse will never reach their full abilities. So it comes back to the statement that the person who trains the horse is the key factor in how far a horse will progress and therefore, the rider is the most important part of this jigsaw.

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“they are all mentally tough and determined and out and out triers.”

"
I do think dressage has a tendency to be romanticised on the internet. At the higher levels the movements are physically very difficult for the horse and the horse has to have a work ethic that allows you to ask them to keep working even when they are finding things tough"

Pure genius and so well stated, and so true. :yes:

[QUOTE=wildswan;3758703]
Sabine - Actually I HAVE encountered many of those “sensitive and reactive” horses (actually a little too up close and personal for my taste). That is precisely why I think it is important to make such a clear distinction between sensitive and reactive.

I agree that the usual amateur is 1) either put off by the behavior of a reactive horse; or 2) due to lack of skill, makes mistakes in the training that result in the horse not reaching it’s full potential. As a “usual amateur”, I have done both.:eek:

Also agree that getting a horse to the top involves a lot of elements and factors that all have to play together in order to produce the correct result. Equally important as the talent of the horse is the talent of the trainer and rider. But this is also true for the sensitive, but not reactive, horse.

So, I think these points further support my premise. If athletic ability, gaits, and rideability are all equal, the sensitive but not reactive horse will be just as likely to win at the GP level as the sensitive and reactive horse. And since there are fewer riders (potential buyers) willing to, or capable of riding the reactive horse correctly and to its full potential, I try to breed horses that are rideable, not reactive, and that can be trained to be sensitive. By breeding in this way, I believe we can produce a greater number of horses that are not only capable of winning at the GP level, BUT ALSO capable of being ridden by riders of lesser talent.[/QUOTE]

Sherri- you are probably very correct- I just haven’t found a gem like that yet!..;)!

[QUOTE=stolensilver;3758914]
While I’m also an amateur rider I’ve done OK in dressage. I’ve trained one horse to PSG and been in the top 50 in the country at medium level (3rd) and am training my second horse at Advanced medium (low 4th). I don’t say that to blow my own trumpet, just to put my comments into context.

My first horse is sensitive and reactive enough to have made GP. Sadly we’re going to run out of time before we get there as we didn’t start till she was 9 and I didn’t know what I was doing! She has got her 1 times and has got piaffe but is still a very long way from being a GP horse.

When I say ‘sensitive’ I mean a horse that leaps forwards from an lightening of your seat. You don’t need to use your legs to get a forwards reaction. By reactive I mean that if I work the horse in hand and touch them, so lightly it barely moves the hair, anywhere on any of their legs that leg is snatched high into the air immediately. If I touch the horse on the side they will move sideways as far and as fast as they can. If you have those sorts of reactions built into your horse you can then concentrate on finesse and expression rather than the movements themselves. This horse BTW is an Irish Draught x TB!)

My second horse is a warmblood and has a full brother who trained to GP. She’s a strange one in that she was explosive and quite frankly terrifying for her first 18 months under saddle but now she is a little older she is not as sensitive or reactive as I would like. What may get her through, although I don’t think she’ll make GP, is that her slowness of reactions are predictable so you can plan them into your riding and also, more importantly, she tries very hard.

I do think dressage has a tendency to be romanticised on the internet. At the higher levels the movements are physically very difficult for the horse and the horse has to have a work ethic that allows you to ask them to keep working even when they are finding things tough. I suppose it is a little like going to a top fitness instructor who will keep asking you for more and more and more long after you think you have no more to give. IME most kind, easy horses simply do not have this level of mental toughness. They would rather give up and say “I can’t” than dig deep (like my first horse) or say “how dare you tell me what to do?” and rise to the challenge (like my second horse). She makes me laugh. She gets cross when asked to try a new movement, throws a strop and then throws heart and soul into conquering the new movement just to show me how wrong I was when I thought she couldn’t do it.

I realise these are not top dressage horses but having been around several horses that are competing successfully at GP I think I recognise at least some of the traits that make a top horse. Straightforward niceness is not one of them. That isn’t to say that top dressage horses are nasty but they are all mentally tough and determined and out and out triers. If the qualities required for a horse to become a top GP horse were not rare these horses would not be as prized as they are, would they? And top riders would not find it so very hard to find a new horse with the potential they are looking for.

Having said all that I also think there are far more young horses with the potential for GP than ever get there. Most of us simply do not have the stability of seat or the finesse of aids to train a horse to GP. Without the right instructor a horse will never reach their full abilities. So it comes back to the statement that the person who trains the horse is the key factor in how far a horse will progress and therefore, the rider is the most important part of this jigsaw.[/QUOTE]

Thank you SS- for a perfect summary of what it usually takes…I love the description of ‘toughness’ and I do agree that that is exactly where the big separation occurs- it’s the horse that says:" I do want to go with you down that road no matter what" or the horse that says " wait a minute- that 's not where I want to go and please - take me back to my stall…". On top of that it’s fitness and wellness and physical ability- or tight connection to the rider that make these things happen or not. It’s stable management and appropriate nutrition and turnout time…it’s a lot of pieces in the jigsaw puzzle that make it a success or a failure- or something in between!!

I agree with you definition of SENSITIVE, I think at some point they must be naturally athletic, physically fit, and balanced enough so their response is not such a physical effort.

My own horse I would describe as ASSERTIVE instead of mentally tough. He can be a real weenie, is a sweetheart and very kind, but when it comes to craftmenship he just says get out of my way. Your comment made me think of whenever we came up against true national horses: with regular regional horses he would watch their test with a ho-hum, nothing special here. When he saw magnificant dressage horses that belonged at the Pan Am Games, he would focus on them and hype himself up, “I can take, them, I can take them. I am by far the best and I’ll prove it.” It was really funny to watch. I never lied to him, I said of course you can but maybe not today. So go out there and put in your test, and let’s have some fun.