Bloodlines in regards to dressage and dressage breeding

[DownYonder]

For those wondering if certain bloodlines are a predictor for dressage success, I just pulled these stats from the USEF website.

Leading Sires - Dressage
#1 – De Niro (by Donnerhall)
#4 – Donnerhall
#7 – Don Schufro (by Donnerhall)
#12 - Davignport (by Davignon I by Donnerhall)
#19 – Dream of Glory (by Donnerhall)
#20 – Don Frederico (by Donnerhall)
#22 – Domiro (by Donnerhall)
#26 – Donnerschlag (by Donnerhall)
#29 – Don Primero (by Donnerhall)
#33 – Don Gregory (by Donnerhall)
#47 – Dormello (by Dream of Heidelberg by Donnerschlag by Donnerhall)

No other bloodline is named in the top 50 rankings as often as Donnerhall and his stallion descendants, yet “sensitive” or “reactive” are not words generally used to describe the typical Donnerhall offspring. Many of them are not even huge movers, but they do often have quite correct basic paces, tremendous trainability, and an unbeatable work ethic. These horses, in general, LIVE to work - they love nothing more than getting in the ring and trying their hearts out for their rider. THAT is why so many of them have found favor with amateur and professional riders alike.

[dps]

wow go Donnerhall!!

[sm1]

I pulled quite a different list from USEF on Dressage Breeding Sires.
On this list Donnerhall blood showed up fifth http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/pointsAwards/points/leadingSires.aspx?year=2008&viewCat=DressageBreeding

with first place, by the wide margin of over 200 points before you get to second place, going to ROYAL PRINCE
HANOVERIAN: ROHDIAMANT 330111490 - PIRI PIRI 317016595, by PRINCE THATCH XX 060039482

@DownYonder;3762020

For those wondering if certain bloodlines are a predictor for dressage success, I just pulled these stats from the USEF website.

Leading Sires - Dressage
#1 – De Niro (by Donnerhall)
#4 – Donnerhall
#7 – Don Schufro (by Donnerhall)
#12 - Davignport (by Davignon I by Donnerhall)
#19 – Dream of Glory (by Donnerhall)
#20 – Don Frederico (by Donnerhall)
#22 – Domiro (by Donnerhall)
#26 – Donnerschlag (by Donnerhall)
#29 – Don Primero (by Donnerhall)
#33 – Don Gregory (by Donnerhall)
#47 – Dormello (by Dream of Heidelberg by Donnerschlag by Donnerhall)

No other bloodline is named in the top 50 rankings as often as Donnerhall and his stallion descendants, yet “sensitive” or “reactive” are not words generally used to describe the typical Donnerhall offspring. Many of them are not even huge movers, but they do often have quite correct basic paces, tremendous trainability, and an unbeatable work ethic. These horses, in general, LIVE to work - they love nothing more than getting in the ring and trying their hearts out for their rider. THAT is why so many of them have found favor with amateur and professional riders alike.

[NoDQhere]

I have never bought into the idea that to get to the upper levels (of Dressage) a horse has to border on nuts. Sure there are a few that are that way but I doubt the majority are. Most professionals don’t want to mess with an idiot anymore than the average ammy does.

Yes, an upper level horse needs “energy” but more importantly they need a really, really good work ethic, correct conformation, three correct gaits and soundness.

We have not found that a good work ethic and difficult go together at all.

The most difficult horses we have worked with are horses that are not suitable for the job they are being asked to do.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=sm;3762129]
I pulled quite a different list from USEF on Dressage Breeding Sires.
On this list Donnerhall blood showed up fifth http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/pointsAwards/points/leadingSires.aspx?year=2008&viewCat=DressageBreeding

with first place, by the wide margin of over 200 points before you get to second place, going to ROYAL PRINCE
HANOVERIAN: ROHDIAMANT 330111490 - PIRI PIRI 317016595, by PRINCE THATCH XX 060039482[/QUOTE]

Well, I thought we were talking about dressage PERFORMANCE, not USDF Dressage Breeding Shows.

However, for dressage breeding, Donnerhall blood still pretty much dominates the top 50.

#2 – Donates (by Diamond Hit by Don Schufro by Donnerhall)
#5 – Don Gregory (by Donnerhall)
#9 – Davignport (by Davignon I by Donnerhall)
#12 – Don Principe (by Donnerhall)
#16 – Dauphin (by Donnerhall)
#19 TIE – Diamond Hit (by Don Schufro by Donnerhall)
#26 – Don Frederico (by Donnerhall)
#42 – Domiro (by Donnerhall)

[sm1]

those numbers I linked to are from performance tests at all usef-recognized shows.* Also, you were talking bloodlines being a predictor for dressage success, so the link with Donnerhall blood coming in over 300 points behind the leader http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/pointsAwards/points/leadingSires.aspx?year=2008&viewCat=DressageBreeding is very relevant:

@DownYonder;3762020

For those wondering if certain bloodlines are a predictor for dressage success, I just pulled these stats from the USEF website.

* you can see I pulled all divisions, if I had pulled Mature DSHB only that would be a different list

[sm1]

@NoDQhere;3762146

Yes, an upper level horse needs “energy” but more importantly they need a really, really good work ethic, correct conformation, three correct gaits and soundness.

This formula covers quite a few breeds…

[zara001]

From kwpn website…

"KWPN-stallion has taken leading position WBFSH ranking

The KWPN-stallion Jazz has for the first time taken the leading position as
the most successful progenitor of dressage horses.
The newly released WBFSH sire ranking reveals that Donnerhall is no longer the leading sire, as Jazz has climbed the ranking from a third place in 2007 to a clear leading position this year with 12,397 points.
Donnerhall takes second place with 10,294 points followed by Weltmeyer (8,027), Rubinstein (5,146) and Ferro (4,897).
New in the top ranking is the Rubinstein son Rohdiamant at 7th place and also Gribaldi on 9th place is new in the top ten."

[Donella]

[B]Quote:
Originally Posted by NoDQhere
Yes, an upper level horse needs “energy” but more importantly they need a really, really good work ethic, correct conformation, three correct gaits and soundness.

This formula covers quite a few breeds…[/B]

No it doesn’t. Most breeds do not have the correct conformation for the demands of FEI dressage.

Anyways, I think it is totally false that an FEI prospect needs to be super sensitive. Sensitive yes and this can also be improved with training. There is actually a whole chapter dedicated to this concept of sensitive and yet not over reactive in the book about choosing a dressage horse by a Dutch vet/biomechanics expert and Anky. It does say that sensitive is a very desired attribute, but in my opinion, there are varying degrees of this. They also agreed that reactive…as in mentally reactive/lack of inner calm was very undesirable and that it is not easy to breed a horse who does not have both ( I mean if it is VERY sensitive).

I think all of my mares are perfect in this way, even my huge “old style” hano mare who is just a doll for everything and anything, doesn’t bat an eye and yet is very forward and light off the aids NATURALLY under saddle.

pS. I agree with looking at the bloodline results. Nether the R or D line horses have ever been associated with hot, reactive or overly sensitive, not at all!

[Touchstone_Farm]

[QUOTE=STF;3757712]
That a huge part of it, but there so many variables, that its almost impossible to get an idea of what a stallion can produce without a LOT of offspring to find common factors.
What is it, it takes breeding a mare 3 times to get an idea of what she can produce, so then take the mix of stallion genetics in it, then you MAY have an idea of what you can breed or not breed her to. If you have a long base of approved stallions and breeding stock in her, we can figure it out a bit more based on genetics, etc.
Just dont agree on trying to get a base of sire indexes based on a few offspring, dont see it % possible.[/QUOTE]

I agree 150%. I was trying to point out the gaps in stolensilver’s premise that bloodlines not being that important. If one looks at the research statistics, one would see having a few successful offspring doesn’t prove anything long-term. So, yes, agree very much with your points.

[Touchstone_Farm]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;3757751]
Some of the huge movers would not be so good for ammies and need the pro ride. Yes, No?[/QUOTE]

No, not necessarily. I have a mare that has truely an “international trot.” It is spectacular. It is a very easy trot to sit. I have sat on “small” movers and felt like I was trying to sit on a jackhammer or a sewing machine. So, no, I wouldn’t make that generality.

[STF]

Touchstone, I KNEW you understood, I was just adding on to your post to explain what I was thinking to the other post.

[wildswan]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;3757751]
IF I was looking for a dressage horse I would look for the best gaits I could get with a soft back so I could sit it…plus looks and the interior qualities.

Some of the huge movers would not be so good for ammies and need the pro ride. Yes, No?[/QUOTE]

Foxtrot, I think you were on the right track when you said look for a “soft” back. The movement can be big, but a soft back is the key to whether or not it is very rideable. And I think this is probably why Touchstone says her “international trot” is easy to sit, while the “small” mover feels like a jackhammer. One is probably soft through his back, the other not so much.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=zara001;3762369]
From kwpn website…

"KWPN-stallion has taken leading position WBFSH ranking

The KWPN-stallion Jazz has for the first time taken the leading position as
the most successful progenitor of dressage horses.
The newly released WBFSH sire ranking reveals that Donnerhall is no longer the leading sire, as Jazz has climbed the ranking from a third place in 2007 to a clear leading position this year with 12,397 points.
Donnerhall takes second place with 10,294 points followed by Weltmeyer (8,027), Rubinstein (5,146) and Ferro (4,897).
New in the top ranking is the Rubinstein son Rohdiamant at 7th place and also Gribaldi on 9th place is new in the top ten."[/QUOTE]

Yes, Jazz is now the leading sire in WBFSH rankings, however Jazz offspring are generally not suitable for most amateurs. Yes, there are exceptions, but Jazz horses tend to be more of a professional ride. Donnerhall line horses, OTOH, are often found competed very successfully by amateurs - even into FEI.

[STF]

Re: Jazz -

I know several ppl who has a few horses by him and they all say they have not been easy, yet there are a few that say their kids could ride them. Granted, yes, there is a mare factor there that has to be considered.
Same with the rumors on Ferro offspring. Some say that they are hard to deal with, some say not.

[nhwr]

There have been two times in my life when I truly thought I might die.

The first was when I accidentally picked up a sleeping rattlesnake with my bare hands. Long story…

The second was when I was on a beautiful and very accomplished Jazz gelding in the Netherlands. I had ridden a few Jazz offspring by that point and thought I knew what to expect. I was in one of those indoors where the wind constantly whistles through so he was a bit on edge to start but workable. Then it started to hail. At the sound of the hail on the roof, he went absolutely ballistic. I have never encountered anything like it before in a horse. I am pretty sure he heard voices :eek: I am not sure what kept me on other than the conviction that if I came off, the horse would stomp me to death. When I was finally able to finish the ride, the agent I was with laughed and said something like “Gotta love those Jazz horses”. My friends in the Netherlands who breed, say - not another one, ever.

I have seen some really hot Ferro horses, but at least they aren’t evil :lol:

No thanks :no:

If I had to relive one experience or the other, I’d pick the snake.

[sm1]

@Donella;3762880

No it doesn’t. Most breeds do not have the correct conformation for the demands of FEI dressage.

There is a wealth of difference between international FEI competitions and regional FEI competitions. For regional success, for an adult amatuer’s pocketbook, I think you may be over romanticizing what is necessary to do respectable FEI work.

A mustang* even did it ----- while some/many bred-for-dressage horses can’t get past second level. I do believe (and this was stated before by someone else on this thread) you have to look at the individual horse and not a breed/registry.

* FEI mustang, friendly and good-mannered: http://www.equinenet.org/heroes/andy.html

[SGray]

@dotneko;3757502

My Dutch horse is Ulft/Doruto.
If any horse was bred to succeed at dresssge is was him.
Henk said that if a horse with his conformatiion/talent could not do
GP, then none of them could The trick was not to get left behind
when he spooked - his movement is so big that one step left or right
could mean a deviation of a few feet. I never saw so many 8,4,8,4
tests as with him - luckily they averaged to 60%. There wasn’t a movement
in the GP test I did not get an 8 on, we just couldn’t string em together.
Anyway - how come no one has mentioned either of these lines?
(Well - Ferro (who I like to say is the same vintage Ulft sperm as my
Fabian) was mentioned)
Did Doruto not produce any good sons?
Dot

have heard for many years that it is a ‘very good thing’ to see Doruto in the background of a potential dressage horse

[siegi_b]

Doruto, a full Trakehner by Komet and out of Blitzenlicht, to this day is highly desired in a Dutch pedigree because he gave the work ethic and rideability, not because of his gaits.

Jazz is an incredible sire that reliably produces gaits and modern frame - look at his son Parcival under Adelinde win every GP competition in the last month. He’s known for his spook, NOT his craziness, and in my mind there is a huge difference between the two. I will be breeding to Jazz again, that’s for sure!

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=sm;3764405]
There is a wealth of difference between international FEI competitions and regional FEI competitions. For regional success, for an adult amatuer’s pocketbook, I think you may be over romanticizing what is necessary to do respectable FEI work.

A mustang* even did it ----- while some/many bred-for-dressage horses can’t get past second level. I do believe (and this was stated before by someone else on this thread) you have to look at the individual horse and not a breed/registry.

* FEI mustang, friendly and good-mannered: http://www.equinenet.org/heroes/andy.html[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but the movements are the “same” regardless of weather you are doing International or Regional competitions.

Yes, there will always be “bred for something else” horses who get to FEI, just like there are probably a few “bred for Dressage” horses out there doing team penning. But the statistics prove that there will always be far more horses “bred for their discipline” that are successful in that discipline than there will ever be horses excelling in a discipline they were not bred for.