Bloodlines in regards to dressage and dressage breeding

[stolensilver]

To be honest I think Parzival is more than just spooky. Here’s a quote from his rider published a few days ago.

“Adelinde quit teaching, her profession of six years, in March to concentrate on her former wild child Parzival. She has ridden the 11yo chestnut gelding by Jazz since he was a 5yo and spent more time spinning around than going forward.
‘People told me to have him shot’ she recalled.”

It takes a lot of bad behaviour for people to advise you to shoot your horse! To be honest it makes me admire Adelinde and Parzival and their partnership even more.

[Eireamon]

I am in New Zealand but it seems the stallion that is having a big impact on the Young Horse scene here is the Hanoverian stallion De Niro (Donnerhall)

We’ve had a grandson of Donnerhall here for a while (oldest progeny 9) and they have been doing well also but are not as classy as the De Niros (oldest progeny 5 yr olds)

Sadly we cannot get De Niro semen here anymore as otherwise thats where I would be putting my money.

[sm1]

@NoDQhere;3764838

Sorry, but the movements are the “same” regardless of weather you are doing International or Regional competitions.

Of course the movements are the same, that’s why I provided a link on a FEI mustang as relevant. Again, for regional horses: the INDIVIDUAL is important if you want success - not the breed/registry.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=sm;3765412]
Of course the movements are the same, that’s why I provided a link on a FEI mustang as relevant. Again, for regional horses: the INDIVIDUAL is important if you want success - not the breed/registry.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but my point was that the “best” individual is more than likely going to be one that is “bred” for it.

I said: Yes, there will always be “bred for something else” horses who get to FEI, just like there are probably a few “bred for Dressage” horses out there doing team penning. But the statistics prove that there will always be far more horses “bred for their discipline” that are successful in that discipline than there will ever be horses excelling in a discipline they were not bred for.

[sm1]

@NoDQhere;3765526

…the statistics prove that there will always be far more horses “bred for their discipline” that are successful in that discipline than there will ever be horses excelling in a discipline they were not bred for.

Definitions of success are different for many people. It depends:

• on the market you’re defining: regional or international.

• whether or not you’re addressing the majority’s goals. The majority are adult amatuers who, by in large, compete in Training and First Levels. So their definition of success is to learn dressage and get respectable scores?

Then we have the discipline itself: this is not a run-the-fastest, jump-the-highest contest where breeding is paramount. Success, the purpose of dressage, is defined by USDF as: “Dressage is a French term meaning “training” and its purpose is to develop the horse’s natural athletic ability and willingness to work making him calm, supple and attentive to his rider.” http://www.usdf.org/about/about-dressage

So this becomes a slippery slope if claiming a horse needs to be specifically bred to "develop the horse’s natural athletic ability and willingness to work making him calm, supple and attentive to his rider."Atleast if you’re defining the vast majority of the market.

Granted and I agree with you 100 percent, there are other market niches here that do require intense breeding efforts to be successful, they’re just not the market majority…

[NoDQhere]

The majority of our market is the Adult Ammy. Our experience has been that it is much easier for ANY rider, including the average Ammy if the “job” is “easier” for the horse. And that is something that can be “bred” for.

[nhwr]

There are 2 types of riders who pursue dressage;

-those who have a horse and decide to take up dressage
-those who decide to take up dressage and decide to get a horse

Breeders wanting to sell horses will obviously put more effort into addressing the latter. So it makes sense that they will seek to breed a good horse (sensible & sound) that is built to do the job.

There is nothing wrong with any horse doing dressage. In fact, most horses benefit from it. But when someone is shopping and their primary interest is dressage, they are going look for the best “dressage” horse they can find.

It really does make everything easier.

[sm1]

good enough, although some interesting statistics from USDF indicate roughly two-thirds are riding other than dressage-bred WBs. Which helps define the majority of the USA dressage market:

out of approximately 33,000 USDF members:

• 88% compete at least one horse
• top 3 breeds are 39% Warmbloods, 16% Thoroughbreds, 11% Quarter Horses

source page 2 http://www.usdf.org/docs/business-opportunities/advertising/MediaKit.pdf

[sm1]

good enough, although some interesting statistics directly from USDF claim roughly two-thirds are riding other than dressage-bred WBs. Which helps define the majority of the USA dressage market:

out of approximately 33,000 USDF members:

• 88% compete at least one horse
• top 3 breeds are 39% Warmbloods, 16% Thoroughbreds, 11% Quarter Horses

source page 2 http://www.usdf.org/docs/business-opportunities/advertising/MediaKit.pdf

[Lgd1]

[QUOTE=stolensilver;3757352]
What I want for a dressage sire is one who has sired very few foals but has a very high success rate with their offspring. Which rules out the big names. [/QUOTE]

My older mare comes from that sort of bloodline. Her sire was a TB stallion used mainly as a riding horse with a sideline job to sire horses for his owner’s use (as riding school horses!), he had very few outside mares as he only stood publicly for one season and he sired around 15 foals over his entire breeding career.
He produced quality horses all with a fantastic temperament out of native x TB mares. Most worked in the riding school and then finished up with amateur owners after the owner died, a few (including mine) were sold as youngsters.

From those that I know of:
2 died as youngsters.
2 small tour level dressage horses, mine works to GP level, she is 7/8 TB, the other 3/4TB (their other ‘bit’ is New Forest Pony). Both retired sound from competition - mine to stud and the other chap won his last affiliated (recognised) class at the age of 26yo! Both also evented to Novice level. The gelding is even more amazing as he didn’t start competitive dressage until he was a 14yo.
1 elementary/medium (L2/L3) level dressage horse, also successful as a coloured show horse and low level eventer.
1 Intermediate eventer/medium level dressage - he retired early after a severe kick injury.
5 show horses which were successful at county level (big regional shows in the UK) or higher in show hunter/riding horse classes. One was placed at national finals as a middleweight ridden hunter and also competed successfully up to medium level (L3) in dressage
1 did low level endurance rides into his 20’s

So not all high level performers in one discipline but 30% with a record at L3 or higher, all with amateur riders. The biggest irony of all is that he was from jumping bloodlines and produced horses that generally gravitated to dressage more than jumping :lol:

I’m now breeding from my mare - her first foal stood reserve champion at her KWPN keuring. I put the mare through the advisory class at the KWPN keuring this summer and the inspectors were very complimentary about her conformation, soundness and competition record. They actually thought her date of birth was a printing error in the catalogue as she doesn’t look 19yo and still has completely clean legs.

Will confess to using a nice WB stallion to produce the filly but made sure he had a good temperament.

[Touchstone_Farm]

Agree with you NoDQhere and nhwr. (By the way, loved the “prefer the snake” comment!)

I think your point, nhwr, about the two type of dressage riders are the ones who got into it with the horse they had and those who decide to take up dressage and buy a dressage horse. There might be a third, which is a combination of the two, like in my case. I started with a non-warmblood, but as I decided to focus on and get really serious about the sport, I moved toward the warmbloods.

I think the stats that sm is quoting may reflect your first category (those who start with a non-warmblood) and some may, like I did, eventually move to a warmblood. Since the majority of the USDF members are at the lower levels, it seems reasonable and understandable that they start with the horse they have.

But I agree about eventually buying a horse suitable to the sport. (It depends upon one’s goals and ambitions.) I could see WBs possibly penning cows, but they just wouldn’t be as good as it as a QH with the bloodlines, bred to do the job!

[wildswan]

@sm

good enough, although some interesting statistics directly from USDF claim roughly two-thirds are riding other than dressage-bred WBs. Which helps define the majority of the USA dressage market:

out of approximately 33,000 USDF members:

• 88% compete at least one horse
• top 3 breeds are 39% Warmbloods, 16% Thoroughbreds, 11% Quarter Horses

[QUOTE=Touchstone Farm;3767267]
I think the stats that sm is quoting may reflect your first category (those who start with a non-warmblood) and some may, like I did, eventually move to a warmblood. Since the majority of the USDF members are at the lower levels, it seems reasonable and understandable that they start with the horse they have.

But I agree about eventually buying a horse suitable to the sport. (It depends upon one’s goals and ambitions.) I could see WBs possibly penning cows, but they just wouldn’t be as good as it as a QH with the bloodlines, bred to do the job![/QUOTE]

Not sure what statistics sm is quoting but if you go here http://www.usdf.org/calendar/competitions.asp?TypePass=All&RegionPass=1&YearPass=2009 to the USDF website and look at competition results you get an idea of what breed of horse people are riding at the various levels, and how they are placing. I found this very interesting; especially if you look at numerous competitions in multiple regions.

[sm1]

@wildswan;3767325

Not sure what statistics sm is quoting…

From USDF themselves, I provided the link for you to access. Are you saying the USDF numbers are wrong when they indicate roughly two-thirds of the USDF membership are not riding WBs?

Not clear about the show listing you provided (I did see Arabian shows listed on your link so obvoiusly those winners are arabians and/or part arabians).

Similar to what Touchstone wrote, I agree about having a horse suitable to the sport. Dressage talent does come in many packages, especially in the amateur levels. Certianly ride what you like…

[sm1]

@wildswan;3767325

Not sure what statistics sm is quoting…

From USDF themselves, I provided the link for you to access. Are you saying the USDF numbers are wrong when they indicate roughly two-thirds of the USDF membership are not riding WBs?

Not clear about the show listing you provided (I did see Arabian shows listed on your link so obvoiusly those winners are arabians and/or part arabians).

I agree about having a horse suitable to the sport. Dressage talent does come in many packages… Certianly ride what you like, especially when the horse is happy and thriving.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;3766661]
The majority of our market is the Adult Ammy. Our experience has been that it is much easier for ANY rider, including the average Ammy if the “job” is “easier” for the horse. And that is something that can be “bred” for.[/QUOTE]

• Squawk! *

If only it were that easy. If it were, we’d all save up 50 or 500k even (forget about living in a house!) so we could sit pretty.

You can think I’m anti-warmblood, because it seems someone has to stick on a tag, no matter how inaccurate – either way I don’t really give a sh*t – but it’s a fine line with sensitivity/reactivity. Either side of that line and you can have a big horse with a lot of mechanical motion (not necessarily good suspension, mind you) that doesn’t really want to go or reacts strongly to a rider bouncing on his back.

[wildswan]

@sm;3767467

From USDF themselves, I provided the link for you to access. Are you saying the USDF numbers are wrong when they indicate roughly two-thirds of the USDF membership are not riding WBs?

Sorry, I get used to seeing signatures with links as the last line of the post and I completely missed the link you provided. I’m not saying USDF is wrong, I just don’t know how they came up with those stats.

Not clear about the show listing you provided (I did see Arabian shows listed on your link so obvoiusly those winners are arabians and/or part arabians).

The link I provided should take you to the USDF competition results page. From there you select “recognized competitions”, and any one the 10 regions listed to view the competitions in that region. Then for any particular competition, you select “results”. On the results page you will find the Class Level Test, Test Composite Score, Rider, Horse, Breed, and Owner.

Since I am very interested in bloodlines, I find this information very useful, because it includes all recognized shows and all competitors. Using this info, not only can you identify which horses, and which breeds are competing at the various levels, but if you had a cross reference to pedigree data you could identify which bloodlines appeared most frequently in the top placings.

[Touchstone_Farm]

Perhaps the difference in the two sets of stats is those of USDF members in general and those members who compete? Not all USDF members compete. Just a thought…and too lazy to do further digging myself.

[STF]

So do any of you have Ferro’s? If so, what are they like? I have never rode one of that line…

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3767503]
You can think I’m anti-warmblood, because it seems someone has to stick on a tag, no matter how inaccurate – either way I don’t really give a sh*t – but it’s a fine line with sensitivity/reactivity. Either side of that line and you can have a big horse with a lot of mechanical motion (not necessarily good suspension, mind you) that doesn’t really want to go or reacts strongly to a rider bouncing on his back.[/QUOTE]

And of course anytime this “situation” happens, it would just “have” to involve a Warmblood :rolleyes:.

[Donella]

What is really starting to get to me about these threads is how they always end up developing into something that has NOTHING to do with the original topic.

We start out discussing what bloodlines produce the best dressage horses. And by this, I think most of us know that we are talking about serious, FEI level dressage. Horses that can clearly excell at the sport.

Then, once we start discussing the breeding, someone comes along and starts to bring up that many dressage riders are not interested in competing past second, they are dabblers who use whatever horse they have ect. It seems to be implied that sporthorse breeders should therefor focus their programs on breeding horses for these people. I don’t get it!!?

So because many riders arent interested in FEI level dressage, people should stop breeding horses that have the best chance of getting there? Many warmblood registries state dressage at the highest levels as one of their breeding goals. Just because recreational riders dont want to do that, what the hell does that have to do with breeding the kind of horse it takes to do such a job?. I don’t care, as a breeder, if my next door neighboor ever gets past first but I do care about breeding a top athlete who is capable of doing what most pleasure horses are not.

Sport disciplines are not discinplines in which any horse can succeed. Such a viewpoint is just ridiculous and totally disproven. A horse that can succeed ie perform at the pinacle of the sport in a specific discipline is 99.9 percent of the time purpose bred for that sport, be it racing, cutting , jumping or dressage. That is a fact! So why are we discussing what kind of horses pleasure riders like to ride instead of discussing the bloodlines represented at the pinnacle of our sport???

There are PLENTY of quiet, solid, easy going horses of all shapes and sizes that can take a rec rider on the trail and up to second level. There is no shortage of these horses because they do not need a specific conformation, they simply need a good mind and sound limbs. Simple. But again, the specific qualities needed for a horse to perform at the top of its sport are so distinct and not often found in one package…ie they are relatively rare…IE more in demand. Ie…what do you think would be easier to find: a horse who will score well at FEI dressage or a horse to putz on the trails and at training level with?

If someone is suggesting that we start breeding for the latter, I am very concerned!

We are talking about the bloodlines that produce horses that come out of the womb with the best “born with it” qualities that give the horse the best chance of competeing at the top of his intended sport. So lets get back to that!