Border Collies: Brindle? Bob Tails?

[zakattack]

Towards the end of September I got a puppy, advertised as an Australian shepherd. The family hadn’t been neglecting her per say, but definitely hadn’t provided a lot of the care a puppy needs. Took her home, brought her to the vet who aged her at 6 months.

She does look like she could be an Aussie, but she also looks a lot like a border collie. And as she grows (she’s now growing very quickly), she’s looking more and more like a border collie, except she has a bob tail and some unusual coloring. Her coat has the black and white pattern like a border collie (including black spots on her muzzle and paws) or tri-colored Aussie, except the brown is brindled in the dark parts of her coat. It looks almost like she’s been sun bleached and look unusual with her longer hair coat.

I will try to attach a picture (my technical skills are limited when it comes to that)

Do Border Collies ever have brindle markings? Are Aussies ever brindle?

Do border Collies ever get their tails docked? Can they be born with natural bob tails?

I’m considering getting a DNA test done to find out what she is. Are those reliable? Or would it be money better spent elsewhere?

[gypsymare]

BCs can be brindle but it is exceedingly rare. They are not docked and are not born bobbed.

The genetic branch of the breed that is participating in conformation shows due to AKC acceptance in 1994 is changing quickly and dramatically. They are looking more like Aussies and dramatically different from the working lines.

[Marshfield]

I have also seen some purpose bred BC/Aussie crosses for sport

[zakattack]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8958982]
I have also seen some purpose bred BC/Aussie crosses for sport[/QUOTE]

Would it be more common for them to dock a crossed breed like this or leave a natural tail?

[S1969]

[QUOTE=zakattack;8958905]
Towards the end of September I got a puppy, advertised as an Australian shepherd. The family hadn’t been neglecting her per say, but definitely hadn’t provided a lot of the care a puppy needs. Took her home, brought her to the vet who aged her at 6 months.

She does look like she could be an Aussie, but she also looks a lot like a border collie. And as she grows (she’s now growing very quickly), she’s looking more and more like a border collie, except she has a bob tail and some unusual coloring. Her coat has the black and white pattern like a border collie (including black spots on her muzzle and paws) or tri-colored Aussie, except the brown is brindled in the dark parts of her coat. It looks almost like she’s been sun bleached and look unusual with her longer hair coat.

I will try to attach a picture (my technical skills are limited when it comes to that)

Do Border Collies ever have brindle markings? Are Aussies ever brindle?

Do border Collies ever get their tails docked? Can they be born with natural bob tails?

I’m considering getting a DNA test done to find out what she is. Are those reliable? Or would it be money better spent elsewhere?[/QUOTE]

Do you know anything about the breeder the first family got the puppy from? Is the dog registered?

Just because it’s called something, or even if it’s registered…doesn’t mean it will look anything like the breed standard unless the breeders are selecting breeding stock appropriately.

If it’s not registered, I wouldn’t assume it’s purebred at all.

[Houndhill]

It seems to me English Shepherds come in brindle and are often born with very short tails. They can look much like Border Collies or Aussies.

[Rackonteur]

[QUOTE=gypsymare;8958976]
BCs can be brindle but it is exceedingly rare. They are not docked and are not born bobbed.

The genetic branch of the breed that is participating in conformation shows due to AKC acceptance in 1994 is changing quickly and dramatically. They are looking more like Aussies and dramatically different from the working lines.[/QUOTE]

Which is what often happens once the AKC gets involved.

BTW it’s “per se” not “per say.” Just FYI.

[zakattack]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8959204]
It seems to me English Shepherds come in brindle and are often born with very short tails. They can look much like Border Collies or Aussies.[/QUOTE]

I was reading about English shepherds and their coat patterns and it seems like this is a strong possibility. Thanks!

Here’s Abby, pictured here with my parent’s 11 month old miniature Aussie, Wahlberg
http://tinypic.com/r/24qk87a/9

And here’s a better picture of here coloring
http://tinypic.com/r/1222ek7/9

[vxf111]

Cute. I know a few farm/scotch collies. None have docked tails. I don’t think Enlish shepherds do either.

She looks like a BC or BC mix to me, but who knows! She’s adorable either way.

[zakattack]

[QUOTE=S1969;8959201]
Do you know anything about the breeder the first family got the puppy from? Is the dog registered?

Just because it’s called something, or even if it’s registered…doesn’t mean it will look anything like the breed standard unless the breeders are selecting breeding stock appropriately.

If it’s not registered, I wouldn’t assume it’s purebred at all.[/QUOTE]

I know nothing about her history, and the family I got her from told me next to nothing about her. Didn’t even follow through in giving me the vet records.

I’m just interested to know her breed/mix for personal interest, she’s still a great dog regardless!

[Bluey]

There are some brindle border collies:

http://www.bordercolliemuseum.org/BCLooks/Brindle/Brindle.html

[csaper58]

Aussie x Catahoula and Aussie x Plott Hound are popular crosses with country folk in my neck of the woods.

Either of those could be brindle and lighter bodied that pure bred Aussies

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8960544]
There are some brindle border collies:

http://www.bordercolliemuseum.org/BCLooks/Brindle/Brindle.html[/QUOTE]

They say the dogs are registered, but not which registry. I know the Continental Kennel club has very lax rules regarding registration.

www.ckcusa.com/registration/registration-services/

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8960513]
Cute. I know a few farm/scotch collies. None have docked tails. I don’t think Enlish shepherds do either.

She looks like a BC or BC mix to me, but who knows! She’s adorable either way.[/QUOTE]

English Shepherds not infrequently are born with bob tails.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8961549]
English Shepherds not infrequently are born with bob tails.[/QUOTE]

Interesting! I don’t think I’ve seen more than 2-3 in my life and they had tails.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=csaper58;8961512]
They say the dogs are registered, but not which registry. I know the Continental Kennel club has very lax rules regarding registration.

www.ckcusa.com/registration/registration-services/[/QUOTE]

Some of those brindles are european dogs.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8961563]
Interesting! I don’t think I’ve seen more than 2-3 in my life and they had tails.[/QUOTE]

Yes many do have tails. Many that have tails seem to carry them higher than Border Collies carry their tails, sometimes even quite a bit higher than their toplines, and I regret to say, some even have a bit of a curl.

Personally I find tails carried this high most unattractive, nor do I care for the Bob tails at all. I admire the breed and their temperament, but would have to find one with an unobjectionable tail to live with.

[gypsymare]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8962110]
Yes many do have tails. Many that have tails seem to carry them higher than Border Collies carry their tails, sometimes even quite a bit higher than their toplines, and I regret to say, some even have a bit of a curl.

Personally I find tails carried this high most unattractive, nor do I care for the Bob tails at all. I admire the breed and their temperament, but would have to find one with an unobjectionable tail to live with.[/QUOTE]

BCs can have the faulty high tail, too. Mine carried his curled up like a spitz when he was excited. When he was relaxed it hung down with just the crook at the tip.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=gypsymare;8962191]
BCs can have the faulty high tail, too. Mine carried his curled up like a spitz when he was excited. When he was relaxed it hung down with just the crook at the tip.[/QUOTE]

All breeds can have bad tail set/ carriage, if they are not being bred to a standard. Tail set and topline are dependent on all the other parts.

I think the OP probably has a somewhat less than purebred specimen. Somewhere along the line there was probably another breed involved, and the breeders just chose to dock the tails and advertise as Aussies.

[Bluey]

We trained border collies to herd and not one ever was a true working dog with a “gay tail”.

Their tail may be up while puppies and when playing, but never when working.
If one kept it’s tail up when trying to work, they generally were chasing more than truly focused on herding.

Not saying there may not be an exception out there, wired differently, but after watching many trials and being there training plenty of dogs, that has been one indicator for trainers of that breed if a dog is going to be worth waiting for it to wake up to real work.

I think that when you breed for working ability in border collies, a low tail is part of what you find there, tail set not something bred for, any more than ear set.
You breed for the right mixture of herding instinct and biddability to training that instinct.
Found a video showing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpjP3mxv21s

Now, that is working border collies, not those bred to AKC breed standards.