Not a problem, happy to help!
Tamara, you never cease to amaze me with what you know. Bluey, you ride or rode with cattle operations didn’t/don’t you?
I have a total fascination with bosals. Love the idea of staying out of their mouth and making a light horse. I’ve got two mares and been told that the one I broke was “too light”, which I translated into meaning others are too heavy handed with her so get HUGE responses. The new mare, on the other hand has spent the past year getting clear about things like “whoa”, distance respect and listening to me on the ground. I am going to start back up riding her again, hopefully tomorrow. I think, because of what I saw in the vid of her prior to purchase (link below), she tends to root and get heavy in my hand. Last year when I did ride her, we rode in the indoor and she was permitted to drop her head to her knees but no further. Since I have never ridden in a bosal, is this something I ought to consider or keep her in the french link that I’m using now? You all have made me a little leary about using a bosal, as I have no experience with them.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6324500]
Tamara, you never cease to amaze me with what you know.
it was the first way I was actually “taught”… by an old drunk cowboy whose daughter married (briefly) my Boss at the time…it was 1985…no vids or DVDs and the fad of the majical trainers had not yet occurred…John Lyons was only becoming known…and I found the Doma Vaquera riders much later than even that…
but he showed me how to ride and I did not forget his old mostly slurred words or how he taught me to hold a broke horse between three fingers in four reins and my seat…not much need to mention that on an English riding board covered up in OTTB tbs and Warmbloods 
I found Ed Connell much later.
Since I have never ridden in a bosal, is this something I ought to consider or keep her in the french link that I’m using now? You all have made me a little leary about using a bosal, as I have no experience with them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzFOzqjqHvk
{bracing myself against the flames} it is my opinion that horses root against two things…too hard a hand or too light a leg…sometimes in a desire to be kind or gentle we forget that the horse must go forward to collect or come up to the hand or move laterally or really anything…the bosal is a remarkable thing…I would ride in it over any thing…try it…a real one will set you back some change be warned, but the rewards are remarkable
Tamara
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6324568]
{bracing myself against the flames} it is my opinion that horses root against two things…too hard a hand or too light a leg…sometimes in a desire to be kind or gentle we forget that the horse must go forward to collect or come up to the hand or move laterally or really anything…the bosal is a remarkable thing…I would ride in it over any thing…try it…a real one will set you back some change be warned, but the rewards are remarkable
Tamara
why would I flame you? I came on here and asked.
She needed to learn to go forward for sure, she came to me because she tended to go up when she didn’t want to continue doing whatever they were doing.
she doesn’t do that anymore as we now go forward. However, no matter how forward we go she wants me to hold her and I don’t do that. Think I’ll go look at some bosals, thanks Tamara.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6324578]
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6324568]
why would I flame you? I came on here and asked.
not from you…I have seen so many crraazyyyyy reasons for why horses root on a bit since I got here(COTH) that I am just careful what I say;)
She needed to learn to go forward for sure, she came to me because she tended to go up when she didn’t want to continue doing whatever they were doing.
suck back…yummmy to deal with in any horse.I have found it a bravery issue more than anything.
the need to be held comes from (IMO) the lack of muscle thru the base of the neck and down the topline…get that thick and active and you may see better results
Tamara
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6324594]
[
not from you…I have seen so many crraazyyyyy reasons for why horses root on a bit since I got here(COTH) that I am just careful what I say;)
ok, got it!
suck back…yummmy to deal with in any horse.I have found it a bravery issue more than anything.
I don’t know what it was. I just know how I dealt with it, by pushing her forward. The first few months I had to lunge her with a whip and used it if necessary. Once I had the cue (warning) in place, it was a non issue. My cue to keep going forward is to simply raise the whip up a little.
the need to be held comes from (IMO) the lack of muscle thru the base of the neck and down the topline…get that thick and active and you may see better results
Tamara
Ok, will work on that. Thanks again!
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6324568]
{bracing myself against the flames} it is my opinion that horses root against two things…too hard a hand or too light a leg…sometimes in a desire to be kind or gentle we forget that the horse must go forward to collect or come up to the hand or move laterally or really anything…the bosal is a remarkable thing…I would ride in it over any thing…try it…a real one will set you back some change be warned, but the rewards are remarkable
Tamara
Great advice to remember. I do have a question for you. My horse is light in the bridle finally (YAY!!) However in a bosal he tends to lean on it even when I bump him off. He is never as light and nice as he is in a bridle. Do some horses just not make good bosal horses or is there another way to help him out and get him light?
[QUOTE=spotnnotfarm;6324815]
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6324568]
Great advice to remember. I do have a question for you. My horse is light in the bridle finally (YAY!!) However in a bosal he tends to lean on it even when I bump him off. He is never as light and nice as he is in a bridle. Do some horses just not make good bosal horses or is there another way to help him out and get him light?[/QUOTE]
well I don’t know exactly what you mean by “bump him off” ?
but for a horse that rides in a curb and is light, lots of times you have to look at the thickness of your reins back to your hand…finished horses rode in a bosalito with very thin reins as well as the thin curb reins…
I recall old Dave being w/o proper waxed and braided horse hair simply braiding 5 of the old time sisal together and soaking it in water over night to make very suitable bosalito reins…
the more “finished” the smaller the reins as thick reins were no longer needed for the safety of a hard pull and they dulled your signal to his head…
you could also look at the adjustment and placement of your chin knot and how tight you have it on his nose…
Tamara
“That a horse works in a hackamore is not really about the hackamore, but about the lightness that horse has learned when working with you, as others have said already.”
Well said!
If you want to order any books or videos on the subject you can go to
Lots of good stuff there and a GREAT magazine.
I used to be a competitive dressage rider until I delved into the world of the Cal. Vaquero type horsemanship. I am so glad that I have my dressage backround but…so much to learn along these lines, it opened up a whole new world for me. Enchanced everything I thought I knew about horses…from the ground up!
Been studying this way with horses for the last 20 years.
I have mentioned her before but one of the only authentic Californios riders on the east coast is my friend Phetsy who lives in NC…
she would love to hear from bosal curious folks.
I’ll get to see her here on the farm in June as she heads back to California to visit…we’ll talk gaited’s and bosals and some form of southern cooking :>
look her up…genuine horseman
http://dbard.biz/aboutDD/aboutDD.html
Tamara
My boarders are gonna be upset if I tell 'em my guy is getting “bumped off!” :lol:
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6324899]
[QUOTE=spotnnotfarm;6324815]
well I don’t know exactly what you mean by “bump him off” ?
but for a horse that rides in a curb and is light, lots of times you have to look at the thickness of your reins back to your hand…finished horses rode in a bosalito with very thin reins as well as the thin curb reins…
I recall old Dave being w/o proper waxed and braided horse hair simply braiding 5 of the old time sisal together and soaking it in water over night to make very suitable bosalito reins…
the more “finished” the smaller the reins as thick reins were no longer needed for the safety of a hard pull and they dulled your signal to his head…
you could also look at the adjustment and placement of your chin knot and how tight you have it on his nose…
Tamara[/QUOTE]
Sorry, should have explained better. I meant bump him off hanging on the bosal by alternating bumping him with my hands when he leans while driving him with my legs to stop him from leaning on the bosal. I did not mean to bump him off as in the Sopranos:lol: Does that help? I have never thought of the thickness of my reins having an effect on his performance. I will have to look into what I am using. By the way, does your friend give clinics out of state?
[QUOTE=spotnnotfarm;6326110]
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6324899]
Sorry, should have explained better. I meant bump him off hanging on the bosal by alternating bumping him with my hands when he leans while driving him with my legs to stop him from leaning on the bosal. I did not mean to bump him off as in the Sopranos:lol: Does that help? I have never thought of the thickness of my reins having an effect on his performance. I will have to look into what I am using. By the way, does your friend give clinics out of state?[/QUOTE]
you would have to ask her…she LIVES the Californios way and has forgotten more than I would ever know.
as for the bumping you describe,well it is not done in bosal riding…it is a trend of the last 15 or so years in western pleasure type riding…
if we look at this pic of the bay:
http://www.aranaway.com/Ali%20Kas%20Bosal.jpg
the bosal is incorrectly adjusted and is obviously just a shiny bit of something off the animals nose…whoever this animal is he cannot learn to hold himself in the place that he needs to be because the particular bosal is just for looks
on this pinto also the bosal is set such that he is caused to stick his nose forward and go flat with a hollow behind and dragging hind legs…but it would make him slow and smooth
http://www.knottyboytack.com/images/RopeBosal.jpg
on this bay this is much better as the nose and chin are both in the right place and while it looks low,the animal is quite new to the game and the fiador holds it in place…the adjustment of the fiador helps the horse put his nose when it should be and thus affects the whole rest of the topline from the first day
finally on this App (gasp)
this is GREAT photo (set of photos) of a horse well trained in the full bit and wearing the bosalito under it…his placement is perfect and he wears it correctly even for a big plain jug headed animal that he is
http://www.sagehorsemanship.com/bosal_bosalita/hackamore_pictorial.htm
Tamara
well the stupid edit buttons are not working here is the pic of the bay:
http://backwoodsbuckaroo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/bosal.jpg
Tamara
note also the progression of the different kind of bosals from colt to finished horse
http://www.sagehorsemanship.com/bosal_bosalita/hackamores.jpg
Tamara
I may take a picture of my guy in his Bosal. I am thinking it may be a little tight on his nose after seeing these pictures. Thanks!
[QUOTE=spotnnotfarm;6326144]
I may take a picture of my guy in his Bosal. I am thinking it may be a little tight on his nose after seeing these pictures. Thanks![/QUOTE]
In our area, you adjust bosals so a horse can graze with them, as many cowboys think the colts relax if they get to graze a little bit here and there, not much, just a bit.
You don’t want it so tight if they get something in their mouth, they can’t open it enough to spit it out.
I saw a spectacular wreck when a colt had his hackamore too tight, we called that to the attention of the kid, he assured us the colt worked fine like that.
We have all been that young’un once, right?
Going down a barditch, the colt grabbed at a head high sunflower, the thing came off at the root, the colt found himself with a tasty bit, that was attached to something long and wiggly and decided to sell out, trying to get away from it.
The bad part of that plan is that he could not open his mouth enough to get rid of it and it kept following him and slapping him on his legs and shoulder.
We could box him in finally and get the sunflower off and the kid got off and took some wraps of the hackamore knot, lesson learned.
The bad part, another older horse decided that was a good excuse to do his rodeo act right then and bucked his rider off.
Some cowboy horses are not too well broke.
They have to “steal a ride” every time they get on.
The sad part, they think that is fun, when it is just poor horsemanship.
Back to adjusting the bosal, I think the fit is as important as how tight or loose it is, the bigger around the bosal, the more important.
Most I knew that used the thick rawhide ones had a coffee can as a bridle hanger and used to hang the bosal by the nose around the can and so shape it as close as it would fit most colts they had to ride, that were not the finer boned, more classy headed ones we have today.
There are some old hackamore pleasure classes on video that show clearly how those bosals go bum-bump-bump on horse’s noses as they were loping around, something I think is wrong, for many reasons.
[QUOTE=spotnnotfarm;6326144]
I may take a picture of my guy in his Bosal. I am thinking it may be a little tight on his nose after seeing these pictures. Thanks![/QUOTE]
as re-runs who also posts here very correctly said…the horse must have mastered riding thru the seat and legs
the mouth is gold…which is why you give the horse all the time and chances in the world to “get it” thru the other body cues
the face and nose are the end of the line as it were for cues…so if you have to “bump” him as you say then you need to revisit the “whoa” from the seat first
as a neighbor of a “majikal trainer” in CO was bragging about riding her horse bareback and bridleless in a small arena… my 14 yo child said to me “well anyone can do that in a small space right Mommy?” and she is correct,and knows this as she was raised “seat-legs-hands” not “hands-hands-hands”
Tamara
I like everything about this one, except it’s a tinch low on the cartilage for my taste (my taste being basically what I was taught).
Both of my horses go in bosals, I change up between bosal and bit depending on my whims, pretty much. They’ve had ‘some’ curb bit exposure but between my procrastination and the fact that they go just fine in either bosal or snaffle, I’ve not worked toward education in the curb bit as much as I’d planned. My preference being, I like for all horses to be educated in all bits. Even if they don’t ‘need’ a curb, the subtle differences in performance one can get with a finished bridle horse, in comparison to a well schooled horse in a snaffle, are just cool, and fun. And it’s why classical dressage/ upper level competitive dressage is done in a full bridle.
And as already noted by you and others, the biggest thing is not what’s on their head (bit or bosal) but seat and legs- followed by/reinforced with ‘educated’ hands. Uneducated hands can pretty quickly teach a horse to bull through anything from bosal or snaffle to curb bit. Mostly in self defense.
I’ve been considering a bosal for my Haflinger. I really like riding him in his Myler comfort snaffle, but also have a Herm sprenger short shank hackamore to ride him in from time to time when I choose to go bitless. I do not particularly like how the shanks work, they’re the english hackamore type so they’re connected by a nose strap and the curb chain. It feels pretty flimsy. I do not want to go to a longer shanked mechanical hackamore.
I ride my mare in a side pull all the time, she’s great bitless, but I don’t think a side pull would suit the Haffie, which is why I’m considering a bosal.
