The amount of dishonesty in horse selling is off the charts including professionals. I don’t expect them to stop what they are doing and show me the horse that minute if I show up early. They can ask me to wait, and by just waiting and observing one can get a good feel for the place as well as watch the horse being tacked up. That was my main point. Apologize later…
1 Like
We got there a bit early and horse was out in pasture. He was very quiet and easy. She warned us that he “flinched” when saddled, but it was nothing to speak of. When we had the PPE down we had all joints and the back x-rayed. Honestly, we spent almost as much on the PPE as we did on the purchase. He vetted clean. He was also very docile at the vet.
Sheilah
7 Likes
You did everything right, don’t blame yourself, sorry you got hurt anyway.
That seller is at fault, maybe she didn’t meant to, but she sure “forgot” that the horse is not really what she knew you were after, with his history of bucking.
10 Likes
I’m so sorry this happened to you. While you do not want to pursue this with the negligent seller, she was fraudulent in representing the horse. Some states have equine “lemon laws.” Considering what happened and what she admitted, she should refund the cost of the PPE.
6 Likes
I disagree. The seller has likely figured out the horse’s signs of impending bucking and how to divert the behaviour even if it’s not something they can verbalize or even consciously recognize is occurring.
That is why I still have my younger horse. He will buck under certain conditions and I can see it coming before an observer realizes there’s a problem. I was ready to get rid of him at one point but he was not safe for anyone else to ride. I couldn’t risk a non riding home either because someone would have tried to ride him at some point.
I think he would be safe for someone else to ride now, but I don’t know anyone I would trust to listen to me if younger horse showed me he wasn’t happy. It’s a pretty short fuse between unhappy and Calgary Stampede bronc. The sort of automatic reaction experienced riders would have in response to his unhappy signs would make that fuse even shorter.
On the other hand my older horse can be trusted with pretty much anyone.
…
Yes, I absolutely meant “get rid of him” at the time. He’s come a long way, but I don’t think he’s ever going to be a horse that can just be saddled up and ridden off without conscious caution.
1 Like
I watched a horse with a nasty unexpected buck not too long ago. His owner was sick and another boarder agreed to ride him a bit since her horse was lame.
I had seen the owner ride the horse and it was a bit balky but otherwise okay. She even put her young kids on him for pony rides.
I had seen boarder ride a she appeared to be a competent quiet rider. She starts riding at a walk and everything appears fine. As they approach the mounting block he stops and she gives just a squeeze. The horse bucks like a bronc! She comes off. After remounting they manage some walk and trot. They are walking looking calm when he suddenly repeats the rodeo act with the same results! She decided to longe him (yeah, might have been smarter to start there with an under-exercised horse) She did get back on for a brief ride after that.
Other boarder commented that the horse was"unreliable with strangers". Of course he had excess energy, but I was shocked to see the sudden very determined full out bucking from him!
2 Likes
“When a horse shows you what it will do, you better believe.”
A rancher friend had a super nice quiet horse that, in the years he had him, bucked once, very hard, every couple years, when things didn’t suit him.
He bucked hard enough friend ended up some days in the ICU each time.
After the third time his Drs and wife had him give that horse up.
It is not that a horse does xyz and how often, but how hard he does it when set off.
If a horse is fresh or scared or whatever and you can talk him out of bucking, or ride him thru a bit of acting up, maybe you can get by most of the time.
One that is rodeo champion worthy or wild out of his head when in similar situations, why keep going there, see if and how bad someone gets hurt. 
9 Likes
Just to throw my 2cents in - I have a sneaky feeling that the seller had probably ridden him thru his bucking episodes and he knew not to pull that with her but everyone else was was (for lack of better term) fair game. And if a bit change is going to set him off or the placement of your hands (which I call BS on) then he needs more work.
I had a friend who had a horse like that. The trainer showed him who was god and he never pulled his crap with her or the owner but anyone else would get as much crap as he felt like dishing out. I think she just retired him as it was exhausting to stay one jump ahead of his nonsense.
6 Likes
I’ve been thinking a lot about how we as riders decide to persist when things go poorly vs. redirecting to a hopefully less dangerous activity (e.g., longeing/in-hand work, returning to the arena if horse is overexcited riding in the open, back to flatwork from jumping, etc) vs. stopping for the day. I know there have been times when I have a bad moment with a horse that could escalate to something dangerous and I work through it, looking for some improvement and a good note to end on, even while I’m wondering whether I should be exercising more self-preservation. It’s hard to tell until after the fact when that’s a good idea and when it constitutes refusal to see a red flag. You (g) know what I mean?
I’m always curious to hear how other people make those decisions and whether it has changed over time. I think I have become more conscious of when I am persisting through danger as I have gotten “older” (mid-30s now), especially since a freak riding injury last April. I don’t have kids but have heard that affects people’s risk calculus as well.
6 Likes
For me it was the six weeks spent sleeping in a recliner after breaking my shoulder blade in two. I’d come off while jumping (actually a stride after the fence) and had that time to rethink my horse goals. I switched to dressage, deciding it was a bit safer for me to stay on the ground after that.
I had two kids and a husband with leukemia and I couldn’t give up my horse, but I chose what I calculated to be a less risky sport.
That was 30 years ago and I still ride and have 3 horses.
14 Likes
I am risking derailing the thread with this, but I find this all so interesting too. When I came off and broke my collarbone, one of my biggest “regrets” was that I wasn’t able to get back on and remedy the issue then. In reality, it probably wouldn’t have mattered. The incident probably had shaken me enough without getting injured that it would not have been productive to get back on, except to remedy my fear of getting spun off. It was kind of a wake-up call to realize how my thoughts were ordered around the situation.
Even before then, I’d been reading studies that show that ending on a good note is kind of a farce. Animals don’t think that way, they live in the now, and forcing a good ending isn’t always plausible or realistic. It’s just human ego to feel the need to end when you have the upper hand. But you can’t have a breakthrough every session. Now I kind of operate under the conditions that if something great happens, that signals the end of the training session. I don’t get greedy. On the other hand, if things are getting sticky, I don’t feel bad about bailing. I don’t need to show my horse a stressful situation to prove a point if I can come back tomorrow and resolve the situation another way, with a fresh mindset.
14 Likes
On this topic my mare eventually taught me that ending on a good note does not mean achieving my goal. It means desecalating so horse is relaxed and happy. The horses emotional state dictates their obedience. If I fight my mare she remembers the fight and gears up for it. She thinks I am just torturing her for fun. We’ve made progress only by me refusing to get into a struggle with her, and keeping her happy. It does not matter if we get a particular move done on a particular day. It matters that she doesn’t get pissy.
20 Likes
Definitely changes over time. I am very well aware (in my late 60s) that my next fall will be my last fall. I won’t mount up again, even if I come away unscathed. It’s just too risky with thinning bones, and slower reflexes.
I know plenty of people who ride well into their 80s – but I don’t own anymore, so I’m already taking pot-luck on schoolies and lease horses.
3 Likes
I have a horse that I would not sell. After seven years of a lot of hard work, leadership , horsemanship, ground work and always being aware of where his mind is, we look almost normal riding about. But he has a short window from worry, to reactive and I know the signs and how to help him not get reactive. Its a combination of a few different training techniques I merged together or modified- that work for my horse, none of which involve “making” him do anything lol… He is an ask and convince him its good idea horse. He also is not a 5 day a week arena work horse. Some horses are quirky, or one person horses.
6 Likes
The behavior of the horse is interesting and I wonder how much of it is the horse knows he can’t get away with bad behavior with the owner, opposed to something else. I think it’s extraordinarily rare, but I have known “one rider” horses. One in particulare was bought when he was about 10. Trainer Mom bought horse for Daughter. A REALLY nice QH - been to QH Congress, all around, just NICE. At first several people rode him (12 year old daughter you know all her friends want to try the new horse). Then, only Daughter rode him for a few months. Mom decided to get on him one day just 'cause. He did everything in his power to get her off - he was step perfect for Daughter and only wanted Daughter to ride him. So, they decided only Daughter would ride him. I was in High School then and don’t know what happened to him after I left.
I also know horses that are not as forgiving with different riders and have seen horses react hugely to seemingly minor changes (low, wide hands, leg, one had a panic attack because the longer stirrups were hitting the girth buckle, etc).
I was working with someone with his horse and he was getting a bit frustrated because he knew he wasn’t asking the horse for what he wanted well and the horse was using that as an excuse to be bad - they have two horses, one is a people pleaser and the other is a bit of a brat so will take advantage if he thinks he can. The issue is the combination of riding trying something new to him and horse trying to find excuses to get out of work.
I’m not going to blame the owner 100% (though the Facebook comment was not quite appropriate but who among us are 100% appropriate 100% of the time?) as there are some things owner may not realize about the horse or realize they are doing.
I find as much “ending on a good note” is as much for the rider as the horse. Psychologically, whatever you end one will be what you think about most and will color your attitude. One bad day for either horse or rider may not make a big difference but it can build. That’s why I always tell people to, if necessary, find something well within a horses wheelhouse and end there, then lots of praise for horse - you put yourself in a positive frame of mind for the next ride.
Also, it’s great for the horse as well. And again, it doesn’t mean you have to “force” an issue - sometimes you adjust. In the above example, we were working on understanding leg and flexing the horse. So, in the roundpen, rider was working on flexing to the inside - basically exaggerated bend in while going around the circle. Rider was not asking well - tends to take up to much rein - and horse was using that excuse to turn in from the circle instead of bending and was getting bratty about it. So then I dialed it back to let’s just have horse turn it’s head in for a few strides at a time. Ride was still using to much inside rein then trying to compensate with outside rein and horse was getting annoyed. So then, we just got more specific with it where I gave “head in” and “done” commands to get the concept of “just a little rein” in to him. I also dialed it back to one/two strides at a time.
We were able to end on a good note where horse was good (stayed on rail with head slightly in), rider ended on a good note (did what he was supposed to do) and rider was reminded of that after the ride as he was a bit frustrated with himself.
i seek a ‘good-note’. I’m not looking to complete a break through by any means…not even hardly! I happily take just a try in the right direction! Mustangs have taught me quite a bit about positive training methods. I have a youngster now under me for lessons with my coach. Yesterday we were making good progress with his reluctant left side and she (coach) just throwing out good things for us to try and he was improving quickly. I told her i thought we should end things and she cajolled to keep me going. He did one more nice left turn and i just hopped off. LOL. I achieved a small objective, that was enough.
4 Likes
I think having a great ride and trying to end on a better note is a different situation. I mean with that horse and many others, when they are so tense that they cannot concentrate and I cannot redirect or push through the issue without a fight, then I am done for the day, regardless of whether I accomplished what I wanted to or not. That stressful experience for my horse is not worth it for whatever breakthrough I am hoping to obtain.
4 Likes
i lost track of where we were in this thread.
When i encounter high reactivity, i exit the situation as soon and as safely as possible. When i return, it is with acute sensitivity, all my feelers are out-there and i am as in-tune as i can possibly be. We will go waaaaaaaay back in the training process and i’ll try to find out what we skipped. In the case of a horse like this… it would be back to halter training i think
2 Likes
Let’s not lose sight that this was a safe horse the OP meant for loving on, riding, enjoying and doing horse things with.
This was supposed to be a has been there, done that horse, not a quirky training/re-training project with dangerous holes to be aware of, like the undisclosed previous bucking.
That is what OP is after and what this horse was represented to be.
18 Likes
yes of course, lets not go off on a tangent! heaven-forbid this ever happen on COTH!!!
2 Likes
