Core strength and balance are both great, but what I’ve learned recently is that flexibility and mechanical symmetry are also very helpful.
BTW: Have you ever SEEN a fruit bat? Pterodactyls in our midst - yikes!
[QUOTE=west5;7667355]
This doesn’t even really make sense though.
If I have a horse that is a little fresh and playing underneath me, I feel most secure up off their back. That way the little bucks/happy dance goes on beneath me but does not disrupt my position. If I am sitting I feel more dislodged by the horse’s antics.
Same is true for x-country. The terrain feels “smoother” if you are out of the tack.
If that makes sense.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree. I’ve been kind of nervous riding my green tb or a other horses known to buck and then when it happens I just stand in my stirrups and go oh duh of course
So now you all have me curious about show jumping. I ride almost all of XC in a two point and go to a light seat occasionally before the fences.
This guy is a 14.3 hand 4 year old who has been jumping for 1 month. He needs more fitness work as he gets heavy when he is tired. I ride him in a snaffle for dressage and XC and a Myler combo for show jumping as he needs a lot of help on the turns, especially in grass. You are saying I shouldn’t be on his back barely at all during show jumping? Even when he gets heavy? Even when he gets flat and responds to half halts from my seat? That doesn’t make sense to me.
I am totally with you on XC, but not on show jumping. I ride/have ridden pretty much all of my other horses in a light/half seat for show jumping, but this guy is a different cup of tea. The Germans have made a show jumping empire on sitting in the saddle.
As a very lower level rider, I am happy to see this complaint because I don’t understand it either. My current instructor lets me stay out of the tack between fences, but wants me sitting about 8 strides out. Frankly, it messes me up a lot, and I often get left behind. I like to just stay balanced and out of my horse’s way unless I am otherwise needed to rebalance him or for terrain reasons. My logic is, if he’s in a good rhythm and locked onto the fence, why should I sit down and mess with him?
I also went to a show this weekend to watch and take notes in an effort to improve my horrid jumping position. I also noticed a lot of riders much closer to the tack on XC than I thought was normal. It almost looked like stadium jumping without the stadium. It seemed like a lot more fussing that what should be necessary for XC.
I’m wondering how much of this has to do with the ever shrinking amount of land to ride on. I have to board my horse a good 45 minutes away because every barn closer is now land locked. I have the luxury of practicing my galloping position in large hay fields and trails, but a lot of my friends do not. It does take a lot of practice to really find that well balanced sweet spot when you are first learning. It’s not something you can practice in a ring simply because they are flat.
On the issue of balance, I am proof positive that balance and core strength are two very different things. I have tons of the former and almost none of the latter. Balance has saved my butt many times.
[QUOTE=PaintedHunter;7667881]
I SEE WADDED PANTIES. THEY ARE EVERYWHERE. THEY DON’T EVEN KNOW THEY ARE WADDED.[/QUOTE]
Panties? What Panties? :uhoh::rolleyes:
[QUOTE=tbchick84;7668147]
On the issue of balance, I am proof positive that balance and core strength are two very different things. I have tons of the former and almost none of the latter. Balance has saved my butt many times.[/QUOTE]
Coming back to this, because I do think it’s an important part of this discussion.
I often work with pentathletes, who are collectively notorious for their showjumping rounds that look appalling to the rest of the horse community. The truth is a little more nuanced, with the sport having a range of riders from truly excellent to unimaginably abominable.
All pentathletes have heaps of core strength. They are some of the strongest, fittest, most athletic people I’ve ever seen.
What many don’t have is good balance on the horse, and it’s not – it can’t be – for lack of core strength. It’s from lack of training in balance on the horse.
Fence judging over the years I have noticed that, particularly at T and P, if a horse has multiple stops or sticky fences there is a good chance the rider does not have a good two point between fences.
Speculate at will regarding cause and affect …
[QUOTE=CatchMeIfUCan;7668132]
So now you all have me curious about show jumping. I ride almost all of XC in a two point and go to a light seat occasionally before the fences.
This guy is a 14.3 hand 4 year old who has been jumping for 1 month. He needs more fitness work as he gets heavy when he is tired. I ride him in a snaffle for dressage and XC and a Myler combo for show jumping as he needs a lot of help on the turns, especially in grass. You are saying I shouldn’t be on his back barely at all during show jumping? Even when he gets heavy? Even when he gets flat and responds to half halts from my seat? That doesn’t make sense to me.
I am totally with you on XC, but not on show jumping. I ride/have ridden pretty much all of my other horses in a light/half seat for show jumping, but this guy is a different cup of tea. The Germans have made a show jumping empire on sitting in the saddle.[/QUOTE]
I’m with you on this. Like most, I stay out if the tack between fences on xc and then come back to the saddle on questions where I need to slow and balance my horse a little more. And in show jumping, my “safety” position that I revert to when my brain turns off is a light 3 point. The GP jumper guy I lesson with hates this :lol: I’ve heard more than once from him that if I’d put my darn butt in the saddle, I’d be better able to slow and balance my horse. And you know what? When I remember to do that during my rounds… We have beautiful, balanced rounds.
So, I’m all about 2 point and staying off the back xc. Especially for open gallop fences. But when it comes to stadium, I don’t think the same rule applies necessarily.
[QUOTE=GutsNGlory;7668197]
I’m with you on this. Like most, I stay out if the tack between fences on xc and then come back to the saddle on questions where I need to slow and balance my horse a little more. And in show jumping, my “safety” position that I revert to when my brain turns off is a light 3 point. The GP jumper guy I lesson with hates this :lol: I’ve heard more than once from him that if I’d put my darn butt in the saddle, I’d be better able to slow and balance my horse. And you know what? When I remember to do that during my rounds… We have beautiful, balanced rounds.
So, I’m all about 2 point and staying off the back xc. Especially for open gallop fences. But when it comes to stadium, I don’t think the same rule applies necessarily.[/QUOTE]
I think it really all depends to a point. I’m actually a rider who prefers two point…and tend to ride fairly hot sensitive horses. I might be fluffy at the moment but I do have pretty decent core strength and balance. But my trainers (and I have good ones) want me to sit more in stadium in setting up my hot TB. This is not what I do jumping 3’ but now that we are doing 3’6"+, I need him more on his hocks and given how sensitive he is, using my seat helps and he actually ends up using his back much better over the fences.
But even in stadium…it is not a dressage seat and it is not a heavy seat.
All that said…there are also very different galloping positions. I was taught to stay close and move with the horse. NOT stand static in the stirrups. Standing might get me higher above the saddle–and honestly is easier for me–but it doesn’t absorb the movement of the horse as well and is harder on my horse (carrying more dead weight than weight moving with him).
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7668275]
I think it really all depends to a point. I’m actually a rider who prefers two point…and tend to ride fairly hot sensitive horses. I might be fluffy at the moment but I do have pretty decent core strength and balance. But my trainers (and I have good ones) want me to sit more in stadium in setting up my hot TB. This is not what I do jumping 3’ but now that we are doing 3’6"+, I need him more on his hocks and given how sensitive he is, using my seat helps and he actually ends up using his back much better over the fences.
But even in stadium…it is not a dressage seat and it is not a heavy seat.
All that said…there are also very different galloping positions. I was taught to stay close and move with the horse. NOT stand static in the stirrups. Standing might get me higher above the saddle–and honestly is easier for me–but it doesn’t absorb the movement of the horse as well and is harder on my horse (carrying more dead weight than weight moving with him).[/QUOTE]
Yes! Yes! And YES! Your first point really says what my jumper trainer means by telling me to sit my butt in the saddle (thank you for explaining and expanding on it better than I did ;)). I have a very athletic, somewhat hot, and extremely sensitive horse. When I lightly sit (yep, not a dressage seat) and balance him from my seat, he can collect and use himself better. When I revert back to the 3 point I love, we end up getting a little strung out and rushy/flat. And though we compete Training level right now, jumper trainer has us doing much bigger courses in lessons (1.2 - 1.3m) and I agree that this becomes a much more important factor as the height increases with that type of horse.
And I couldn’t agree more with the different galloping positions. Just standing and either putting your weight on the withers via bracing the hand in the neck or locking your ankles/knees (or both) isn’t really effective. You have to stay soft enough to absorb the movement and your ankle/leg should be breathing with the horse. The first time I had a BNR tell me that my weight shouldn’t be in my heel while galloping, but instead my heel should ‘bounce’ a little and breath with the stride… Light bulb moment! :yes:
I think it is also important to note that they way in which you go from the galloping 2 point to the light seat before a fence on xc matters too. You can’t just decide to sit… You have to prep for it and bring you butt up under you while you’re bringing your shoulders up and back. This allows the horse to brings his hind end up under him the same way. If you just go from galloping 2 point to, PLOP, sitting in the saddle… That’s when you get the ugly inverted approaches right into the fence.
[QUOTE=Huntin’ Pony;7668057]
Core strength and balance are both great, but what I’ve learned recently is that flexibility and mechanical symmetry are also very helpful.
BTW: Have you ever SEEN a fruit bat? Pterodactyls in our midst - yikes![/QUOTE]
HP, I gave up on flexibility in the 5th grade. The symmetry part is a work in partial progress. Need more yoga!
http://www.batworlds.com/wp-content/uploads/fruit_bat_picture_624.jpg
Stadium = stadium canter
Cross country = galloping
Different positions necessary. Some people like a fill seat for showjumping, some a half seat, to each their own with that one.
Galloping? What’s galloping? :lol:
[QUOTE=PaintedHunter;7668713]
Galloping? What’s galloping? :lol:[/QUOTE]
I am with you on this. I have a baby dinosaur who still doesn’t quite get the gist of moving legs faster…
That’s what I get when I trade a TB for a WB. 
Right?? It takes an act of god to get him to move faster than this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wgvRd1ZgAM
Here is another video that I like, with Sharon White and Patches. Note that she stays off the saddle, and at times barely touches it (as in no lbs in the actual saddle) and the only times at which she actually sits are when she has to drive Patches forward to a distance. This happens in combinations and one of the waters, in particular.
http://youtu.be/THGn47CJAzI
You can also see the strength of her core insofar as she does not ever do a “dip forward” or a “flip back” upon landing.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;7669264]
I do think that one needs to sit if they have to drive the horse forward but if strong enough, there is no need to sit to maintain balance and keep the horse in front of the leg. A lazy sort of horse is going to need a driving seat now and then. A hot horse, not so much. And there is no reason to sit back and down upon landing, unless one must drive the horse immediately forward.
Here is another video that I like, with Sharon White and Patches. Note that she stays off the saddle, and at times barely touches it (as in no lbs in the actual saddle) and the only times at which she actually sits is when she has to drive Patches forward to a distance. This happens in combinations and one of the waters, in particular.
http://youtu.be/THGn47CJAzI
You can also see the strength of her core insofar as she does not ever do a “dip forward” or a “flip back” upon landing.[/QUOTE]
It isn’t driving the horse together but engaging the hind end. I’m not sure I can explain it online but I can say that the right rider, sitting, can hold a hot horse together better and stay out of their face more. With my guy, the change in his jump was fairly substantial.
This is instruction that I’ve been given by both GP jumper riders and Jimmy Wofford and others…it isn’t coming from out of left field.
With the hot and forward horses, you are actually NOT driving them with your seat but really holding them together more with your seat and waiting for the deeper distance with very soft arms. It keeps them together in a bouncy canter good for jumping bigger fences.
ETA: This is not with greener horses…for them, I’m typically off their back more.
bfne, I know you’re not driving them with your seat. It is a way to get ever so slightly behind so you can push them forward. :winkgrin: Have done this often and the “driving” phrase is a phrase. Sharon is NOT shoving her butt into the saddle. She is getting in a position so she can drive the horse forward.
I really like what I see in these riders that I’ve posted and it is possible that these riders do not have to sit to get the job done. Obviously. Because they got the job done.
I am sure your trainers are fabulous and they are training you to do what YOU need to do to ride the horse you are on at the level you are competing. Maybe they would tell these folks to change the way they ride, although I do know that JW has high esteem for the riders in these videos.
This is a wonderful discussion!
Can I just say, I have a long way to go before I have that ideal soft & balanced two point, and reading this thread inspired me to really work hard on two point balance last night during our conditioning sets.
Of course, for the first time in like 5 years my horse got spicy during the gallop and bucked me off because I wasn’t locked in but rather working on my balance…but that was about as likely as lightning striking us, considering his usual attitude toward life. Win some, lose some…
[QUOTE=kerlin;7669312]
Can I just say, I have a long way to go before I have that ideal soft & balanced two point, and reading this thread inspired me to really work hard on two point balance last night during our conditioning sets.
Of course, for the first time in like 5 years my horse got spicy during the gallop and bucked me off because I wasn’t locked in but rather working on my balance…but that was about as likely as lightning striking us, considering his usual attitude toward life. Win some, lose some…[/QUOTE]
Oh my word! You got bucked off due to this thread??? :eek:
I also am finding it inspiring because I am doing searches for riders I admire and watching videos of xc and sj. I’ve got a jump lesson tonight with my two baby horses… a good opportunity to try to ride “as if.”
Also, the WEG Prep Trials are happening near me next weekend and will be another opportunity to really focus on the position of top riders.
