Brain Storm -- Horse is Totally Different on Lunge Line vs Under Saddle

[Glyphica]

I need a collective brain storm for this one. I have no idea where I’m screwing up or what I’m missing.

So I’ve got an interesting horse in the barn. Under saddle, he is a typical rusher – wants to hollow, brace, and then zoom off. The tension and hollowness are magnified in the upward transitions. Oh, and he cannot/will not pick up the inside canter lead. When we finally manage to get into the canter, he does lead changes every 5-10 strides, no matter where we are or if we are circling. Based on that, I figure he needs strengthening work as he must not be able to support himself using his topline. He appears to have a decent topline, but to me rushing and tension usually indicate weakness or pain.

So I’ve done my best to rule out pain. Had the saddler, massuese, and vet all take a look. Nothing seems to be causing an issue. Ok, so if not pain, then let’s work on making him stronger, right?

So I put him on the lunge in a typical side rein and surcingle set up. I think my jaw is still on the arena floor. Horsey tucked his little butt, worked over his back beautifully, and kept tempo like a metronome. Transitions were gorgeous, worked beautifully on different size circles. Canter was LOVELY. I want that horse under saddle.

Ok, so I figure it must be me. So I put a handful of different people (all competent riders – 2 fellow upper level DQs and my friend who deals exclusively in problem ponies) on him over the past few days. He’s just as awful with them as he is with me.

So I need help. What would make a horse so radically different from the lunge line to being under saddle?

Additional info just so you get the whole picture:
Horse lives out with a small herd unless the weather is bad. He is fed a ration balancer. No known health issues. Not spooky in the slightest. Super sweet and easy on the ground. He does have a broken tail from a turnout accident (happened years ago and I don’t know what happend). I can’t think of anything notable about him honestly.

Thanks for your time!

[alibi_18]

The saddle might not fit him.

The extra weight of a person is somehow bothering him.

The movement of the rider/saddle is hindering his natural movement.

The memory of being badly/harsly ridden is making him anticipate pain/problems and he reacts accordingly.

Try lunging with someone on top; a dummy rider who wouldn’t use rein or any aids. See if it’s related to the riding or the saddle/weight.

[Glyphica]

@alibi_18

The saddle.

I’ve had mine fit to him, and he doesn’t have any signs of back pain. It sits level, no bridging or rocking. No weird pressure points.

But I can certainly use a different one tomorrow and see a comparison.

[Glyphica]

Actually, my friend rode him in her saddle not mine. I’ve got a wolfgang solo. She has a wintec dressage (not the isabell, but one of the suede ones) with cair panels.

[Glyphica]

@alibi_18

The saddle might not fit him.

The extra weight of a person is somehow bothering him.

The movement of the rider/saddle is hindering his natural movement.

The memory of being badly/harsly ridden is making him anticipate pain/problems and he reacts accordingly.

Try lunging with someone on top; a dummy rider who wouldn’t use rein or any aids. See if it’s related to the riding or the saddle/weight.

Great idea!

[Bogey2]

you may want to x-ray his back…kissing spine?

[theresak]

Kissing spine, cervical arthritis, ulcers, nerve pain from the broken tail, and saddle fit (even though fitted to them, some horses still have an opinion on saddle fit - try a jumping saddle or a few other brands).

[Come_Shine]

Girth pinching? Sore under chest?

[Glyphica]

@Bogey2

you may want to x-ray his back…kissing spine?

With kissing spines, do horses usually have no obvious back pain? When I took him to the vet, I asked about back issues. The vet ran his pen down his back along his spine. Horse didn’t react, so vet said that his back was fine. Should I request Xrays anyway?

[Glyphica]

@theresak

Kissing spine, cervical arthritis, ulcers, nerve pain from the broken tail, and saddle fit (even though fitted to them, some horses still have an opinion on saddle fit - try a jumping saddle or a few other brands).

He seems super flexible and mobile in his neck, so I doubt cervical arthritis. What avenue should I take to look for nerve pain? He sometimes holds his tail crooked to the right – maybe a sign of issues? The break is about halfway down the tail bone.

I can certainly try different types of saddles.

[Glyphica]

@Come Shine

Girth pinching? Sore under chest?

He doesn’t have any hair rubs or girth galls. I’ve got him in a professional’s choice neoprene girth.

He did have soreness under his chest during a massage maybe two months back. He didn’t seem to have any this time. He has never reacted badly while being brushed on his chest or under his belly. However, he does seem to carry a lot of tension in his shoulders.

[theresak]

@Glyphica

He seems super flexible and mobile in his neck, so I doubt cervical arthritis. What avenue should I take to look for nerve pain? He sometimes holds his tail crooked to the right – maybe a sign of issues? The break is about halfway down the tail bone.

I can certainly try different types of saddles.

Cervical arthritis can also (and I think often, especially in dressage horses) manifest in issues with the longitudinal positioning of the neck (up and down) rather than lateral position (side to side).

Ask your vet if manipulation of the tail could be a test? I bet you could also block the tail.

If you have a good vet clinical or school nearby with an area to ride, I’d start by taking him there and doing a full lameness exam with the vets watching jogging, lunging, and under saddle. They might see something.

[beowulf]

After owning the last two TBs I’ve owned, I put VERY little faith in palpitations over their back to be a reliable indicator of soreness. I also put next to no faith on saddle-fit affirmations… my 2nd TB was like yours and after years of trying to find this mystery ailment, we looked at the saddle (which had been reflocked to him by several fitters, all good too). We actually looked at his back specifically the SI, and saw some seriously alarming stuff that had been caused by a saddle that fit on paper but the horse did not think it did. Got a different saddle, injected his SI and he was a different horse.

My current TB has some serious cervical arthritis stuff and moderate KS. The CA was a surprise to the vet, but not to me. He never had issues stretching his neck or moving his neck side to side. He could bend until the cows came home. He had issues with flexion. CA does not necessarily mean the horse automatically has trouble bending or moving its neck. It’s a complicated site that has complicated secondary effects - sometimes it causes balance issues. Sometimes it causes tension. He never palpitated sore over his back, isn’t girthy, doesn’t buck… but boy when we did mesotherapy was he reactive… vet said he had a lot more pain back there than we realized. He’s going well now but I have to be very mindful because he is very stoic. Interestingly, he is ok on the lunge until he isn’t - I think lunging hurts him with his KS.

I’d be x-raying his neck and back, personally - and checking the saddle. Your guy is textbook for back-pain, especially being better sans rider. Some horses with KS have a hard time lunging and are worse (like mine). Some are better. It’s tough and not a one-size-fits-all approach. Good luck and keep us updated.

[flaxenfilly23]

Yes, a horse can absolutely not show pain from palpation but have pain when a rider is on their back. My number 1 guess from the description would be kissing spine. Adding 120 pounds to a horses back is likely going to present a lot more signs of pain than a horse standing still with no weight on his back.

[Glyphica]

I think I should take him to a lameness specialist for a second opinion. My vet was pretty clear that he didn’t think this was a pain issue, but I want to be sure.

Two of you had said that a fitted saddle may still not fit. How did you tell? This one seems fine to me, and I trust my saddler, but maybe the horse disagrees? Fingers crossed that’s all it is.

[Glyphica]

@flaxenfilly23

Yes, a horse can absolutely not show pain from palpation but have pain when a rider is on their back. My number 1 guess from the description would be kissing spine. Adding 120 pounds to a horses back is likely going to present a lot more signs of pain than a horse standing still with no weight on his back.

Thanks for thinking I only weigh 120!

KS has definitely gotten multiple votes. I will definitely request x-rays of the back.

[SuzieQNutter]

Sigh, my boy is sore. He has pulled a muscle in his chest. He is not lame. He is looks fine. He is fine on the lunge. When I hop on him he says no.

[Glyphica]

@SuzieQNutter

Sigh, my boy is sore. He has pulled a muscle in his chest. He is not lame. He is looks fine. He is fine on the lunge. When I hop on him he says no.

How did you figure out that was the problem?

[beowulf]

@Glyphica

I think I should take him to a lameness specialist for a second opinion. My vet was pretty clear that he didn’t think this was a pain issue, but I want to be sure.

Two of you had said that a fitted saddle may still not fit. How did you tell? This one seems fine to me, and I trust my saddler, but maybe the horse disagrees? Fingers crossed that’s all it is.

All told, my back x-rays were the cheapest part of the diagnostics. ~$270 before factoring in meds/sedation. If that helps any. A hell of a lot cheaper than the many other vet visits I had out trying to finagle what the root of the issue was. Sometimes it seems tough to shell out the costs associated with a clinic but I can tell you from first hand experience going to the experts is much cheaper than miscellaneous farm calls for NQR problem-solving.

As far as the gelding I mentioned up thread… We had a top lameness vet watch him undersaddle after multiple failed other vet attempts to isolate the problem: we tried treating for lyme, we tried chiro, multiple saddle reflocking appts (we even stripped the saddle and reflocked it…), we tried time off and no time off, we tried off the wall things too but nothing made a significant difference. Finally we called in a lameness expert who watched him go undersaddle. He flexed fine, but I guess the lameness vet was able to tell within moments at the canter that it was somewhere in the back. He asked me to go over a jump, which I did, and the horse did what the vet described as an “explosive set of hysterics disproportionate to the task asked of him”. The important thing to note is that this horse looked sound - the vet even said so himself - he said something to the effect of it was very misleading to watch him go because he was not mechanically unsound. So I think he measured it by behavioral patterns on top of how the horse moved. My guy violently bucked after fences that required him to round his back. Was fine over small stuff like x-rails but if you jumped an oxer you had to prepare for the landing…

It’s sad because despite all of that pain, he still jumped…

[SuzieQNutter]

He looks fine on the lunge. He is normally a very happy horse. He never puts a hoof wrong in the arena. Walk is fine.

I asked for trot and he said no. This means he put his ears back and didn’t trot. If pushed he put his head up and down. If push more he stops threatens to buck, threatens to rear and tried to bite my leg. That is sooooo not my horse.

I took him to the chiropractor. This is a guy I totally trust and I have seen him do miracles.

He started at his head and said he was out in his head and his jaw but he is out one way in his head and another way in his jaw which is not normal. Going to his chest he said he has pulled a muscle, it is very deep and inside put allogard on it. Going to back he said he is out, tight and sore and this horse has fallen over.

He is now eating more since having his jaw put back on. He has stopped stretching out to pee incessantly on the way to the arena

I took him out the day before and he wanted to go. I did say no you shouldn’t but he didn’t listen to me. He trotted and cantered and hours afterwards he trotted to me when I called him.

Yesterday he would not trot in the arena. Only trotted once when we were out and when we came to the downhill he just stopped and did not want to go home.

He does not appear lame. He looks great. He is absolutely fine in walk. He can collect and do lateral work.

I plan to only lunge and ride in walk. He is cold backed anyway so I don’t want to stop putting the saddle on him and me on him in walk doesn’t seem to be a problem, even in the arena. After 3 weeks I will reassess take him back to the chiropractor and if he is still no good. I will separate him from Sim. Put him on stall rest and not allow him to walk and do that for 3 weeks and then reassess.

I am so upset, disappointed and frustrated. I do have another 2 horses to ride in the mean time to console myself with.

Our next Dressage Day is on the 12 November. He will miss it.