brand new vet's liability waiver

[mareslave]

curious how you’d deal with sending your lovelies to a clinic that had a 6 pt typed consent form (explains procedure and acknowledge the risks were discussed) with this liablity waiver language:

“I agree to indemnify and hold you harmless from and against any and all liability arising out of performance of any procedure, as well as any losses or injuries due to care, custody or handling.”

Now I didn’t have the legal research handy so I couldn’t confirm that in my state malpractice cannot be waived by contract (if it could every attorney fee contract would have some sort of language where the client waives “any and all liability” as would all doctors’ offices -well, if all laws were logical…ha)

the vet’s response to my questions about the waiver was “I don’t want to get sued for malpractice” which one would hope, especially for my horses’ sakes, that the vet would avoid a suit by performing at the industry standard (ie not malpracticing) and not be negligent.

I’ve signed plenty of consent forms for specific procedures for my horses, but this additional waiver of liability for performance of procedure and care/custody/control, made me wonder what to do.

[rodawn]

I’ve never signed a waiver for general practice. Only a consent form for surgery.

[MysticOakRanch]

I’ve never signed one either. Is this a new thing we should expect from all our vets - I hope not:confused:

[siegi_b]

I wouldn’t sign it… Why should the hospital not be responsible for safe handling, feeding, etc. of your horse? They’re charging you for all those things, so I would expect something in return. :eek:

[Laurierace]

You can not sign a release that negates negligence. It isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

[Canterbury_Court]

The vet is uninformed or perhaps hopeful that you are. In California you cannot waive your right to sue for negligence (knew or should have known better and did it anyway). You can sign a binding arbitration agreement a la Kaiser. I’d ask the vet if he has malpractice insurance and in what amount. Malpractice insurance is as much to cover your patients/clients as it is to protect your assets.

Are there other vets around you can go to?

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

I haven’t seen a release like that in most private practices, but it is pretty standard in a University type setting. I know that I’ve signed similiar releases when using the services of the University of Missouri for both small animal and large animal surgical procedures. I would imagine that this is going to become more and more common in veterinary practices of all types, especially as more and more younger practicioners become practice owners.

[exvet]

Caveat: I am no longer in private practice, having been in shelter medicine for 5 years; but, all I can say is, “WOW.” I have certainly worked for practices where we had a waiver signed to acknowledge the inherent risk of surgery and certain procedures. I have also had waivers for clients who insisted on leaving their halters, tack, etc for their horses who were hospitalized even though we encouraged them to take all personal belongings and had plenty of suitably sized halters and leads, etc that would do for the period of time their horse was in our care (I didn’t and don’t want to be held responsible for extraneous personal property that isn’t needed for the purpose to do my job in meeting the standard of care); but, I honestly wasn’t aware of this type of waiver. The last time I worked for a vet school was evidently long enough ago that such things weren’t thought to be necessary outside of the disclosure that people were taking their animal to a teaching institution and had to accept the fact that fifi, fluffy or trigger would be used as a teaching case and therefore have students who would be supervised handling some aspects of care.

I guess you learn something new every day.

[mareslave]

thank you for all your input & support! I felt really beat up yesterday, since I consider breeding an elective procedure (it’s not collic surgery) and we COTH posters are very well aware that nice foals are available in europe.

I was able to do a little research on California law: negligence IS waivable with a release; gross negligence is not; malpractice is not.

In addition to reading the business and professions code and a couple of cases. I noticed this post by a sports law group:
"What if You Signed a Release or Waiver of Liability and Then Were Injured? Releases and waivers of liability are usually enforced in California.

They are considered contracts that, if properly drafted and executed, are recognized as valid agreements that limit your rights.

HOWEVER, there are ways to challenge the validity and binding effects of a release or waiver of liability:

Illegal content or format: Releases and waivers of liability must be clear and concise, and in a font that is easy to read. They also must specifically identify all parties who are being released or waived from liability. If the release or waiver of liability does not meet certain requirements, you may be able to bring a legal challenge. For example, the wording may be too narrow or too broad to cover what happened. It may not release all the parties you want to sue. The writing may be too small to read. Or, it may simply be what the law calls “unconscionable.”

Fraud or misrepresentations: The advertisements, brochures, website or other marketing literature associated with the activity may have contained misrepresentations or intentionally false statements that induced you to participate in the sporting activity. This type of fraud would override the release or waiver of liability.

Gross negligence or recklessness: The California Supreme Court recently held that releases are valid only to protect defendants from being sued for negligence. They are invalid if you can prove that the other party’s conduct was more than negligent, e.g., gross negligence or recklessness."

The release also had a consent for any and all procedures the vet deemed necessary- kinda pre-authorization of any procedure on my dime? what? no second opinions? No additional consent to additional procedures? Vet said, “I don’t want my professional judgement questioned.” (Nobody WANTS their work questioned. I don’t like or want my professional judgement questioned nor does the president of the US, the gas station attendant, the mail carrier, etc. - but we all do the best we can with the hope that the job we do can/will withstand examination and if questions come up, we address them, hopefully with good grace…not always but hopefully).

anyway, thanks again and happy foaling!

[HungarianHippo]

Wow, I’d find a new clinic. It’s one thing to want to avoid frivolous lawsuits (which would be the kind way of looking at not wanting to get sued for malpractice) but you’re not supposed to question professional judgment? Talk about a God Complex.

[mareslave]

[QUOTE=HungarianHippo;7088995]
Talk about a God Complex.[/QUOTE]

ha ha…you might think so…I couldn’t possibly comment…

[Blume_Farm]

I am not sure what state you are in, but I have practiced in CA, FL, and now NC. No form that is signed would release a vet from being sued for negligence. I have every surgical patient, boarding pet, etc sign a release form, but know that if we screwed up it is not a shield against being sued.

I will say that the few cases I have been brought to the board about have been crazy. One was a spanish speaking man that dropped his dog off to be neutered, he signed the papers and even wrote in the procedure to be done section “neuter”. When he picked up his dog and found out he had been castrated he flipped. He did not know the word neutered meant castrated. In the end it was his responsibility to ask for clarification if he did not understand, not my responsibility to determine what his level of command of the english language. Another claim brought against me was a woman that claimed I tortured her cat during euthanasia because I pet it’s ear. Evidently her cat did not like to have her ears touched. She sent me a two page letter that started with F**k You… The last suit against me was a woman that wanted her two husky dogs euthanized because it was too much work to carry the big bags of dog food…seriously!! When I said I would not she threatened to throw the dogs into oncoming traffic. She then tied the dogs to my front counter and left. By law I had to keep the dogs for 10 days, send a certified letter (which I could not do because I did not know who the woman was), and post a notice in the newspaper. During their stay one dog got very ill and we diagnosed diabetes. We stabilized the dog but could not institute full treatment until the the dogs were legally abandoned. On day 7 she came and picked up her dogs. She then sued me for causing her dog to become a diabetic.

I can tell you these suits take a lot of emotional and financial energy from you. Even when you know they are not merit based they are a huge headache. I presume having folks sign more and more paper work is to help deflect these types of suits. Unfortunately it is the way the world is going as fewer people want to take responsibility for things, and the ones that do are afraid to as sometimes the repercussions can be absurd.

In addition, if we have a pet boarding I have owners sign a form stating that we can institute care if we cannot get in touch with them. There have been occasions that we have had to do this…one dog bloated on a sunday and I came in and performed emergency surgery and then transferred him to the 24 hour care facility. Thankfully the owners were thankful (even with their $3k bill), but other owners would have been pissed. That form protects me from the ones that would have been pissed.

[Tiki]

“I don’t want my professional judgement questioned.”
Excuse me? Most good physicians welcome a 2nd opinion if the patient is confused or not sure. If ge wants to avoid a malpractise suit he shoud adhere to standards. Not only would I not sign that, I would find another vet. I certainly hope that this is not the way the vet world is going! :mad:

[CDE_Driver]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7090076]

I will say that the few cases I have been brought to the board about have been crazy. One was a spanish speaking man that dropped his dog off to be neutered, he signed the papers and even wrote in the procedure to be done section “neuter”. When he picked up his dog and found out he had been castrated he flipped. He did not know the word neutered meant castrated. In the end it was his responsibility to ask for clarification if he did not understand, not my responsibility to determine what his level of command of the english language. [/QUOTE]

Wait a second here!!! Sorry, but I’m just cracking up! What the heck did he think he brought the dog in for??

Sorry you have had to waste your time on those frivolous lawsuits. Shame on those people.

[Edgewood]

[QUOTE=CDE Driver;7090155]
Wait a second here!!! Sorry, but I’m just cracking up! What the heck did he think he brought the dog in for??

Sorry you have had to waste your time on those frivolous lawsuits. Shame on those people.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, really! I was trying to figure out what he thought that neuter meant?

[Laurierace]

He wanted the dog tutored! He was having trouble with his math homework…

[mareslave]

[QUOTE=Tiki;7090124]
Excuse me? Most good physicians welcome a 2nd opinion if the patient is confused or not sure. If ge wants to avoid a malpractise suit he shoud adhere to standards. Not only would I not sign that, I would find another vet. I certainly hope that this is not the way the vet world is going! :mad:[/QUOTE]

I had some other misgivings about the consent/liability release form. My driver’s license number was requested, which I have never ever been asked to do except for a Notary, Bank or auto purchase/rental/insurance - Kinda set off a small alarm bell. What does the vet need with my driver’s license number? are they going to report me to the police? Do I have to present my license to retreave my mares? I confirmed the form was NOT requesting my vehicle’s license plate number, which would make sense if I were leaving a rig there or something.

This clinic was not a huge TB farm with security gates or a huge vet school with lots of comings and goings. Not a good way to establish a confidential relationship IMO. Scary.

[ise]

As other’s have said - a release cannot sign away negligence. And I would do a little checking to see if this Vet was sued before - and if so …what was the suit.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7090076]
I am not sure what state you are in, but I have practiced in CA, FL, and now NC. No form that is signed would release a vet from being sued for negligence. I have every surgical patient, boarding pet, etc sign a release form, but know that if we screwed up it is not a shield against being sued.

I will say that the few cases I have been brought to the board about have been crazy. One was a spanish speaking man that dropped his dog off to be neutered, he signed the papers and even wrote in the procedure to be done section “neuter”. When he picked up his dog and found out he had been castrated he flipped. He did not know the word neutered meant castrated. In the end it was his responsibility to ask for clarification if he did not understand, not my responsibility to determine what his level of command of the english language. Another claim brought against me was a woman that claimed I tortured her cat during euthanasia because I pet it’s ear. Evidently her cat did not like to have her ears touched. She sent me a two page letter that started with F**k You… The last suit against me was a woman that wanted her two husky dogs euthanized because it was too much work to carry the big bags of dog food…seriously!! When I said I would not she threatened to throw the dogs into oncoming traffic. She then tied the dogs to my front counter and left. By law I had to keep the dogs for 10 days, send a certified letter (which I could not do because I did not know who the woman was), and post a notice in the newspaper. During their stay one dog got very ill and we diagnosed diabetes. We stabilized the dog but could not institute full treatment until the the dogs were legally abandoned. On day 7 she came and picked up her dogs. She then sued me for causing her dog to become a diabetic.

I can tell you these suits take a lot of emotional and financial energy from you. Even when you know they are not merit based they are a huge headache. I presume having folks sign more and more paper work is to help deflect these types of suits. Unfortunately it is the way the world is going as fewer people want to take responsibility for things, and the ones that do are afraid to as sometimes the repercussions can be absurd.

In addition, if we have a pet boarding I have owners sign a form stating that we can institute care if we cannot get in touch with them. There have been occasions that we have had to do this…one dog bloated on a sunday and I came in and performed emergency surgery and then transferred him to the 24 hour care facility. Thankfully the owners were thankful (even with their $3k bill), but other owners would have been pissed. That form protects me from the ones that would have been pissed.[/QUOTE]

Yet more proof that you don’t have to do anything wrong in order to be sued. A friend of mine landed in court over a dog which came in for spay and eye surgery. Consent form said ovariohysterectomy. When wife picked up the dog she had sent husband to drop off, she claimed she had intended to breed the dog. She made the appointment. Lost that one in court as judge faulted my friend for using the proper medical terminology on the form.

I dealt with a board complaint recently. Woman complained about my exam being brief. Funny, I correctly diagnosed the cat with a urinary obstruction and saved it despite her screaming at my support staff when they explained that emergency care costs money. For those that are curious, total estimate of under 1k.

[Blume_Farm]

We also require having a DL# if the person is going to write a check. This way if the check bounces the collection agency will require that information. That is pretty standard these days.

Again, I can probably guarantee that in time these forms are going to become more and more standard. As the “old guard” vets retire and the new ones come in they will have been instructed how to protect themselves from frivolous suits (which are the vast majority of complaints filed). These forms will not protect them from valid, merit based claims, but may help discourage those that want to sue for stupid crazy stuff.

After 12 years in private practice, 7 of those as a practice owner, I could write a book on crazy people and their demands.

[QUOTE=mareslave;7090988]
I had some other misgivings about the consent/liability release form. My driver’s license number was requested, which I have never ever been asked to do except for a Notary, Bank or auto purchase/rental/insurance - Kinda set off a small alarm bell. What does the vet need with my driver’s license number? are they going to report me to the police? Do I have to present my license to retreave my mares? I confirmed the form was NOT requesting my vehicle’s license plate number, which would make sense if I were leaving a rig there or something.

This clinic was not a huge TB farm with security gates or a huge vet school with lots of comings and goings. Not a good way to establish a confidential relationship IMO. Scary.[/QUOTE]