I see a lot of horses broken at the third vertebra at events and am wondering why it happens and how to prevent/fix it?
These horses seem to overbend behind the vertical and lack muscle lower on the neck behind the break. Most are hollow in the back as well. Does it go away with proper training or will it always be there? How would it be possible to properly train one of these horses with their tendency of breaking with contact? TIA
If this happens in a Warmblood/TB type I think it is very fixable by even moderately capable riders. But, it seems to be more difficult to resolve once it has set in for PRE/Fresian types. Probably still fixable, but perhaps more likely to be beyond the abilities of many rider/trainers.
As for why this happens, Iām not quite sure. I only have seven years in dressage, people with more experience may have a more well formed opinion on the origins of this trend. I know that as a relatively new dressage rider I learned quite a bit that wasnāt overtly āwrongā but it also wasnāt quite right, and it didnāt make me feel inspired to ride. There isnāt the emphasis on an open throat latch that I think there should be, and the corresponding focus on ensuring that the horse always surges to the bit with a clear ābridgeā from the energy of the hock, over the back and into the corners of the mouth. I would say I also see a lot of horses ālocked in a frameā and have ridden several upper level horses with zero stretch to the bit who went around with frozen backs and active legs. It is honestly kind of depressing to ride these horses, it doesnāt make me feel good at all and I donāt seek further rides.
Would love to hear from some of the dressage riders who have observed the history of the sport in the US and may have thoughts on how we got to where we are, because I agree there is a lot of this kind of thing going around.
Riding like this has become the fashionable outline for a āroundā dressage horse. People will say they donāt ride like that or a photo from s competition is only a moment in time but it is very much the norm at the moment.
I understand it has the effect of throwing the horse on the forehand and increasing the knee action, in dressage same as in saddle seat.
At lower levels itās a quick way to get a horse to look āfinishedā before it is really trained to collect.
If it hurts your eyes to watch then just quit looking at dressage or saddle seat.
I think it happens because that is how people ride these days and the dressage judges tend to reward it. IMHO.
It happens when the horse is pulled into a āframeā rather than being ridden in a way that the back is brought up and the hinds come under to support. When that happens, the horse will come into a lovely upper level frame naturally, not from being compressed and held in.
It is possible to fix, and the difficulty depends on the degree of compression, how severe the improper muscle development is, and the build of the horse. It takes time though, because you have to go back to pre-training level and work the horse from the ground and ridden in whatever length of frame allows him to bring his back up. I was just at a Jillian Kreinbring workshop this weekend, and she showed several competitive hunter under saddle horses as good examples of horses in an āelementeryā frame, which is where you would need to start, and then build from there, so you can see how long it might take to get the horse back up to what is thought of as a training/first level frame if there is a lot of poor work to undo.
Agree with outerbanks77. It usually comes from people who focus on the headset without getting the back up first. If you get the back up, the neck and head will naturally follow. Some horses are naturally predisposed to the incorrect posture and they require an experienced, tactful rider to teach them the proper way to move.
Iāve wondered this as well - I am confused how people can make it all the way to GP when a horse is not using his back. If my horse isnāt engaged, lifted and round, no way am I going to get a canter-walk transition, much less flying changes, half-pass and onward.
I think a really talented WB has impulsion to spare and can be ridden cranked under with out losing all.forward. These horses are still restricted and hunched up, and showing less than their true potential but their potential is so huge what remains is good enough. Also GP has been tweaked to reward big gaits over collection.
Less talented WB and other breeds canāt offer much when they are schooled like that especially with an ammie rider who is afraid to let the horse go forward.
Thatās why almost all ammies stall out at first level even when their horse is of medium good quality. They rush the horse into a āround frameā and then csnt get collection or flying changes because the horse is always on the forehand. Then the horse goes lame in the hind end from the stress of moving wrong. New horse, better horse, start over. Etc.
Iāve watched this over and over.
Btw the image of the round horse is so pervasive, even the decal Pikeur sends you with their breeches has a silhouette of a horse broken at the ,3rd vertebrae and with a correspondingly unbalanced trot.
Is the fashion. Is like asking why Western pleasure horses have to trail their noses on the ground. Because. Just because.
So I have been trying to find the balance of it all. I typically donāt like riding with mirrors, as it has me looking to see if the horse looks āgoodā; I prefer to ride by feel. Iām constantly feeling for the inside hind, and for the back to lift, but my trainer constantly tells me to ask for more, she even will say using Rolkur and going behind the vertical is sometimes necessary.
What are your thoughts on that?
āPeople will say they donāt ride like that or a photo from a competition is only a moment in time but it is very much the norm at the moment.ā
You know this is the gist of just about every comment on here. I DO NOT SEE IT. Do I live on a dressage island? I donāt think so. In my region there is a lot of Microsoft and Amazon money and you can bet there are plenty of fancy horses and our competitions are full and producing some brilliant national level riders. We get all the best clinicians in this region, too.
So to say that riding the horses breaking at C3 and BTV is āvery much the normā is an exaggeration. And āat the momentā is an odd choice of words since Iāve been hearing this exact same lament for about 10 years now. As a matter of fact, I donāt ride that way and Iām guessing that none of you commenters on here do either. Which begs the question. A handful of people can be seen going around with the horse obviously riding with hands and pulling the horses into a frame and BTV - definitely not a moment in time. But those rides are not getting rewarded at the shows. Not the shows Iāve been to recently. And the vast majority of the riders are not doing that.
I will say that I have seen it in an unfortunate number of sales videos recently and it makes me scratch my head that the seller of the horse in the video (usually a professional) thinks thatās OK. (And then Iām sure they wonder why the horse doesnāt sell.)
So yes, there are uneducated people out there, but in my experience they are far from āthe norm.ā
Weāve been hearing it for longer than 10 years. I believe it is true that the best horses in competition are not poll highest point. They are very round in the neck, slightly behind the vertical. To say these horses arenāt over the back is ridiculous, but there is a certain group of people that donāt favor the way the current high performance horses go. Take a look here at the Chronicle photos of the Young Horse Championships that were just held. Look at those horses necks and look at the good contact. Some will look at these pictures and fault them, but not me. They are glorious.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/from-big-eyed-baby-performance-pro-day-2-dressage-champs
What exactly constitutes being ābroken at the 3rd vertebraeā? Is it just that area of the neck being the highest point and not the poll? Or is there a more nuanced definition? In the case of the former, it seems that some horses will exhibit that even when theyāre not BTV. Valegro seems to exhibit this in the extended walk for example, but maybe Iām mistaken on what it actually is. Iām not trying to trash Valegro or anything.
[ATTACH=JSON]{ādata-alignā:ānoneā,ādata-sizeā:ālargeā,ādata-attachmentidā:9854104}[/ATTACH]
Iām talking about this, where the muscling of the topline is only where the break is. The topline muscles taper down behind the break.
Yes, that is a good example of what I would consider an incorrect break in the neck. Egood asked if there was a more nuanced definition and imo there is, but I felt I couldnāt put it into words. A horse in that photo goldenstirrup put up, could not be properly connected.
I think this kind of break happens with horses of a certain conformation when the contact is too strong or when the horse is evading the contact. I donāt think, for example, it would be easy to get a thick neck horse to look like this photo.
I call these horses soft in the poll, and there seem to be more and more of them getting bred.
http://www.labizantina.it/Images/Marche%20trattate/pikeur.jpg
Really? Nose is nowhere near BTV and pole seems pretty high. What are you seeing here?
A lot of the time I think that people fixate on the horses head position, but not the entire body. I have ridden with instructors where it was all about headset, headset, and headset. Or you have the rider that thinks itās ok because they donāt know otherwise.
My PRE has a tendency to get behind the vertical. Part of it is his rounded neck conformation easily allows it, and the way he was previously ridden when he was started. He is also so light, so very light. Just a little bit of pressure can send him BTV in his plain olā mild snaffle bit.
What am I doing to fix it? Really ensuring that we are forward and have impulsion. I am also riding him a bit lower than usual to encourage him to stretch into the contact, work over his back, and build that top line. It has been working as I feel his back raise and swing and he seeks our contact. Sometimes he will default to BTV, and as I said, he is incredibly light and soft mouthed so I really have to pay attention.
Iām my case, and others, it can be a really sensitive mouthed horse who gets behind the leg sometimes. In additional to a slight battle of conformation that allows him to so easily be BTV. He just wants to default there with the slightest bit of pressure. So he is learning proper contact, reaching, stretching, and not evading.
The other part of the equation is people wanting to literally compact their horse into collection so they (as seen) end up cranking them inward. It is as though they want to pull them back onto their hind end. Or there is too much hand used in an effort to contain the āpowerā of the horse. I think it is not so uncommon for horse to go through a BTV phase in its training. Especially young or green horses. They will sit above, below, behind, in front of the contact as evasions or just trying to figure it all out. It is up to the rider to show the horse the way.
āI have ridden with instructors where it was all about headset, headset, and headset.ā Then you have ridden with instructors who donāt know what they are doing. The word āheadsetā has no place in dressage. At. All.
Thank you ToN Farm, for saying what i was getting at much better than I did! 
Well, yeah, thatās why I used the term āriddenā 
I did not stick around for long!
Very much agree Mondo! Iām just south of you in NorCal, and we have many top competitor s and trainers at our shows, and it is a rarity to see it, and it most definitely is NOT rewarded! Last big show I was at, I saw one rider riding forcefully to a deep frame, and she was reported to the TD by another rider. I did not swatch her actual tests, but she was not in the top placing sin her classes.
I have a friend with a young horse who is naturally overly round thru the poll (ToN uses the term soft, which is a good description ). He is very obedient, lovely mover, very steady, but goes too round and deep, and she is scored low because of it. The judges do NOT reward it. Iām sure he will come up as he gets stronger - I see it more often in the young horses who havenāt yet developed the strength and balance to lift in front. So they either go way above the bit or too deep and behind the bit. Neither is ideal, but the back gets more stretch if the go a bit too round and deep. The danger, of course, is forcing them into round and deep and compressing the neck in an unnatural way. With todayās horses, bred with longer necks and refined throat latches, this becomes even more of a risk.
The palomino that is pictured (saddlebred?) is an example of difficult conformation. I would guess he isnāt ridden forcefully but goes there very easily. I had a Morgan with that neck, and it was not an easy fix. He was also verylight, hot, and typical Morgan overachiever. The long, swan neck is not an easy neck to ride. I see people breeding for it, especially in the hunter ring where pretty is rewarded. Of course, the short neck has its own issues, mainly the judges commenting on āneck too shortā
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
