I have a drop dead gorgeous, super fancy, hack winning mare who can jump the moon and is completely bombproof to boot. These are the good traits. The bad: she has bad stall manners/habits, which I attribute to life on the track, but can’t say for sure since I didn’t know her before she raced. Also, I HATE her hind leg conformation, and blame it for ending her career prematurely (bilateral hind suspensory desmopathy). How likely is it that these traits would be passed on to the foal? Is it unheard of to leave a mare and foal out 24/7 with a run in shed? Could she be a donor or recipient mare for ET? Are there stallions known for stamping their offspring with their legs or is that not typically a point of interest? I’m more curious than actually considering breeding her, but several people mentioned that I should since she was such a phenomenal sport horse.
Don’t breed one with hind limb conformation you hate. Even when breeding to a stallion that throws correct foals, there is still a good chance you’ll end up with the mare’s conformation. Stallions can be influencing but it’s not like guaranteeing color genetics when it comes to conformation. You have to start with a good mare and expect a chance you could end up with her carbon copy.
Define “bad manners/habits from the track.”
I wouldn’t breed her based on bad hind leg conformation alone.
On the subject of living out 24/7 – that’s what I do with my mares and foals. Typically, mare has foal outside, comes in for vet exam, and goes out. Usually has company of another quiet preggo mare. Mare and foal stay out in that setting for about a month, then they’re returned to the stallion’s herd. The stallion will rebreed, but more importantly he wonderful with the foals. The mares quickly turn over babysitting duties to him.
So sure, a mare and foal do fine living out; probably prefer it. Like the others have said, if your mare has serious hind end conformation issues, I wouldn’t breed her. There is not point passing bad legs along.
I can only speak from the TB breeding side of things. I have seen the dams of some of the best racehorses and or top stallions. By and large most were very plain Jane, plain paper bag and could easily be picked a part. I was kind of surprised. In some ways somewhat disappointed and a tad confused. At the time it was early in my ‘education’ of breeding theory, conformation etc.
As to bad habits I have had several that would fall under this. I have a mare that I bought “out of the walking ring”. Meaning she wasn’t on my list, hadn’t inspected her at the barn, her pedigree page caught my attention. I only had a few minutes to look at her before she went in ring to sell.
She was unraced, on the small side of things, correct with a moderate hind end. Other than having a nice hip. When we got her back to the farm I found out a few more things. She didn’t like to be caught, and she is as bad a cribber as they come and or I have seen, worked around.
But she threw beautiful foals. None of which had her temperament. All of them by and large have been ‘lovey dovies’. All have grown to be over 16+ hands, NONE are cribbers. Some were decent racehorses. We have kept 5 of them and they can all jump the moon and above average movers.
I have had others very plain Janes that have done the same. So one never knows. The TB breeders have the luxury of lots of solid stats on stallions. We have the benefit of going to yearling sales and seeing lots of their get from lots of different mares by different broodmare sires all in one place. Between that and talking with fellow breeders we can ascertain which stallions tend to strongly ‘reproduce’ themselves regardless of the type of mare they are bred to. Others that are a blend of each and others where the type of mare has a strong influence on the resulting foal.
But in the end with a maiden mare you can do all the research in the world, talk to all the ‘experts’ in person and or in cyber land. But you never know what you will get until you get it on the ground and go from there. As the saying goes, breed the best to the best but there is no guarantee you will get the best.
All of our mares live out 24/7. After they foal and everything is good they all pretty much go out later that day if not the next. Assuming the weather is good. A lot of our foals are born in the dead of winter. They go into a small paddock that shares a fence line with the broodmare field for a couple of days. If all is good they good out with the rest of the girls until weaning. Only brought in when the weather is really bad.
IME I don’t feel the above is the ‘exception to the rule’.
[QUOTE=weixiao;8529640]
Don’t breed one with hind limb conformation you hate. Even when breeding to a stallion that throws correct foals, there is still a good chance you’ll end up with the mare’s conformation. Stallions can be influencing but it’s not like guaranteeing color genetics when it comes to conformation. You have to start with a good mare and expect a chance you could end up with her carbon copy.[/QUOTE]
Not to be snarky but you seem to be completely discounting a stallion’s influence on the resulting foal. Something I tried to point out in my earlier post.
“Stallions can be influencing but it’s not like guaranteeing color genetics when it comes to conformation”
IME I think comparing color out come and conformation out come to be like comparing apples to oranges.
“You have to start with a good mare and expect a chance you could end up with her carbon copy”
While I certainly agree with the first part. But everybody has a different idea of what constitutes a “good mare” especially with sport-horse mare from I have read in the forum. Unlike TB breeders who have a wealth of statistics at their finger tips. Even with maiden mares TB breeders have a solid idea of what the ‘family’ maybe capable of producing. Evaluating a mare’s conformation is very subjective and is totally based on the person’s expertise which can’t be learned from a book, video or chat room. Those that really know their stuff had expert mentors and years of looking at LOTS of horses. That being said I have looked at horses with people who have been around them for years and really don’t know what they are looking at.
From what I have learned on the sport horse side of breeding there seems to be a lot of ‘grasping at straws’. Breeding successful TBs is a bit of a crap-shoot. But IMO breeding sport horses is far more of a crap-shoot.
“end up with her carbon copy”
This may or may not be desirable depending on what the breeder is looking for, trying to achieve. A breeder may want to strengthen something that the mare lacks, or may want to soften. Add some size, take away some size. Hopefully correct some minor conformation faults. Get a more pleasing head and eye. Any number of things. All of which is highly possible if the breeder is well versed in what they are doing. Know what the stallions on their list are capable of adding or not. IMO it’s kinda the whole reason/point behind the exercise, profession, hobby.
If people are afraid of breeding an ‘unwanted/useless’ foal then they probably shouldn’t go into breeding. As I said in my earlier post, you can breed the best to the best but that does not guarantee you will get the best. But the odds are slightly better.
IME, having seen it happen on more than one occasion, hind end faults seem to be quite persistent when bred.
I would never breed a horse that had even the slightest bit of a fault behind. IMHO, I see too many soft tissue injuries because of poor conformation behind to think about possibly breeding a horse that had less than ideal conformation behind.
Thanks everyone. Her worst habits are biting the walls and being anxious about getting out of her stall when it’s turn out time. You all pretty much confirmed what I figured about breeding her with poor hind leg conformation. Do you think her habits are bad enough that she shouldn’t be a surrogate mother either? She’s very laid back when she isn’t in a stall…
I bred stall walker (due mostly to separation anxiety), she typically wouldn’t walk when she had a foal at side but we also tried to keep stalling to a minimum (just the hottest part of the day in the summer). Her foals never showed signs of walking (or stall anxiety) which all but confirms that the mare’s stall walking stemmed from a period of stall rest that she did not cope well with rather than genetics.
Her habits and hind end conformation will be at least 50% passed on to a foal no matter what stallion you pick. If you like the mare for riding and sport, do not risk breeding her and missing at least a year of riding time. Why do you want her to be a surrogate or bred? Being good in sport does not mean being good for breeding…many geldings are very good at sport! From what you describe I see little to gain and a lot of risk, $ and concerns.
Breeding a mare means a lot of time in a stall, lots of vet visits and being inside for bad weather. I would be worried that she could hurt the foal given how you describe her anxious behavior. Yes in a perfect world she could be outside all the time with her foal but the reality is farrier visits, vet visits, bad weather, monitoring etc needs to happen. Also some bad traits are inherent so seeing the behavior is only a part of the ability to pass it along.
The habits I could deal with from the sound of it. The teeth thing is annoying but not dangerous. and the turnout manners – well that is fixable well before any baby gets here. That’s just a lack of manners. I get plenty of rude horses off the track, they don’t stay that way. Put her in manners boot camp and you’ll have her turned around before the baby gets here.
If you can’t put manners on a grown horse, not sure raising babies is a good idea anyway. They absolutely require good handling.
The hind limbs, well, if I disliked the confo I wouldn’t breed her directly, just don’t think it makes sense but it really depends on the horse.
[QUOTE=Nevada10;8530081]
Thanks everyone. Her worst habits are biting the walls and being anxious about getting out of her stall when it’s turn out time. You all pretty much confirmed what I figured about breeding her with poor hind leg conformation. Do you think her habits are bad enough that she shouldn’t be a surrogate mother either? She’s very laid back when she isn’t in a stall…[/QUOTE]
IMO…living with an unpleasant “mother/nanny” for the first 6 months of a foal’s life is not a good thing!! We had an opposite situation years ago with a client’s foal…well bred, good race record, dam, but with bad habits…she had 3, “dimwitted, poorly performing” race horse foals. Dam died in colic surgery when the 4th foal was 3 months old. Long story short…One of our Clyde mares took on and nursed the foal…THAT colt went on to be a Stakes winning race horse!! The owner swore it was the “Draft Milk”!!! We swore it was the sane upbringing!! I’d never breed or use an unpleasant mare to raise a future sport horse. Just remember…your event horse has to be stabled at some point in his competition years.
[QUOTE=melhorse;8530126]
Her habits and hind end conformation will be at least 50% passed on to a foal no matter what stallion you pick. If you like the mare for riding and sport, do not risk breeding her and missing at least a year of riding time. Why do you want her to be a surrogate or bred? Being good in sport does not mean being good for breeding…many geldings are very good at sport! From what you describe I see little to gain and a lot of risk, $ and concerns.
Breeding a mare means a lot of time in a stall, lots of vet visits and being inside for bad weather. I would be worried that she could hurt the foal given how you describe her anxious behavior. Yes in a perfect world she could be outside all the time with her foal but the reality is farrier visits, vet visits, bad weather, monitoring etc needs to happen. Also some bad traits are inherent so seeing the behavior is only a part of the ability to pass it along.[/QUOTE]
The only reason I’m even considering it is because her competition days are over due to her injury. I’m trying to find a useful purpose for her since she’s still young (8) and otherwise healthy. She’s fine inside for up to 10 hours… basically once breakfast is served, she’s ready to go out, and wants to be the first one turned out. Sorry if I gave you the impression that she was a maniac in her stall… she’s not… she just prefers to be out. She’s always been fine at horse shows since she knows there is no turnout so there’s no reason to get excited about coming out of her stall.
I would advise you strongly against breeding your mare. Poor hind end conformation combined with hind limb unsoundness requiring retirement at the age of eight adds up to a very complete deal breaker for breeding a sport horse.
I agree with beowulf also that hind end flaws seem to consistently reproduce.
As far as using her for a recipient mare, I would doubt that anyone would take you up on that. It is a significant investment to do ET and I can’t imagine allowing that foal to be foaled by and raised by anything but a very tractable and well mannered mare.
I think it is completely understandable for you to want your mare to have a job. Unfortunately, it’s not a good idea to breed a mare just because she needs a job. Don’t forget, in most cases it is much cheaper to retire a mare than to breed it.
[QUOTE=Nevada10;8530555]
The only reason I’m even considering it is because her competition days are over due to her injury. I’m trying to find a useful purpose for her since she’s still young (8) and otherwise healthy. She’s fine inside for up to 10 hours… basically once breakfast is served, she’s ready to go out, and wants to be the first one turned out. Sorry if I gave you the impression that she was a maniac in her stall… she’s not… she just prefers to be out. She’s always been fine at horse shows since she knows there is no turnout so there’s no reason to get excited about coming out of her stall.[/QUOTE]
That makes for a different opinion on my part…I thought you meant she was a total whack in the stall!! A “Nanny” position might be a good job for her.
Just a FYI : limb angles/ conformation are the least heritable traits of all. A very large study done in Germany proved this. Not that I am advocating breeding her as there is a chance she will pass this weakness on but its not a 50 / 50 chance either ( actually it’s a lot lower).
If she is pasture sound there is no reason she couldn’t be a nice recip.
If she’s got bilateral hind suspensory desmopathy, why would you want to add the extra weight of a pregnancy to those legs?
Well, I understand why you would want to find her a job. I retire my horses but it is hard to stomach retirement of an 8 year old if you can find her a legit job of some sort. Otherwise could easily be 20 years on the feed bill just eating away…a job for her is not an unreasonable thing for OP to hope for and I don’t see any reason why she couldn’t be tried as a recip and I would have to see the horse before I could say about the legs. That is almost certainly a no for me especially since she is retired early from flaws.
[QUOTE=yaya;8530775]
If she’s got bilateral hind suspensory desmopathy, why would you want to add the extra weight of a pregnancy to those legs?[/QUOTE]
The injury happened 6 months ago… It was fairly minor in the spectrum of this injury. No surgery was required and she’s pasture sound now. In another nine months when she really starts packing on the pounds, it would be even more healed. I just don’t think she’ll hold up to the rigors of competition. Maybe she will, maybe she won’t, but I don’t want her to get hurt again on my behalf.
[QUOTE=Nevada10;8530555]
The only reason I’m even considering it is because her competition days are over due to her injury. I’m trying to find a useful purpose for her since she’s still young (8) and otherwise healthy. [/QUOTE]
This is the reason so many people breed mares. And, IMO, it’s the number one reason not to. Breed the best… not one who tried and failed at the job(s) you’d want her offspring to do.
I’m sure Charles Darwin would say the same thing… more kindly and in a much, much (much) longer sentence.
